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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:44
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overthewing

My thoughts too ran along these lines, as the "survivable space" in nose doesn't appear to have been compromised. All I can say is that it looks like the ac landed with a very high ROD (there is little to show of a ground slide), and struck the ground pitched very nose high, and that whilst the tail absorbed some of the force, the next part to strike the ground would have been the main uc. This would also have absorbed some more of the impact energy but also caused the ac to pitch down (rotate downwards). The nose was effectively at the furthest distance (moment) from the centre of rotation and when it hit the ground vertical g (deceleration) would have been too great for even a properly restrained human being to survive.

Those pax in the cabin, closest to the mainplane, would stand the greatest chance of survival. Crew and pax at the tail and cockpit would have been at greatest risk.

Crash-worthy seats which "stroke" in a vertical axis might have made a difference to the flight deck crew's chances of surviving - it all depends on how great the peak forces were and how long was their duration.

MB
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:47
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The perished crew members remain in the cockpit until the seating positions (who was sitting where) and the switch positions (was this turned off or on or what was the throttle position?) can be verified and recorded for the investigation.
It's unlikely that the majority of some of the switches levers would move even on a major impact, as they are generally gated??? Not a 737 pilot but I guess this would be the case.
I would guess the investigators will look quickly at the cockpit to allow removal of the deceased.

Nice to see Sky had a decent 'expert' on earlier, but the talking head still managed to make an arse out of her interview. (ie, the crew won't be able to give a factual report of the crash now will they!!!) Where do they get these numpties?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:51
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crew fatalities

The loss of the 3 FD crew and 6 other SOB losses are sad, but the investigation will centre on why the aircraft crashed first and foremost. The fatalities are results of the crash, and lessons will be learnt there to improve safety in other ways, but first and foremost the question is 'why did it crash' - let's stick to that
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:51
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Come on fellas, one or two of you need to relax and take your head out of your ass. Nobody has a definitive answer until the report comes out, and the title of this website should give you a clue about inevitable speculation.
Its nothing new, its always been the same here.

People have always and will always speculate. Unfortunately some have no idea, gobbing off every five minutes doesn't help, just move on to the next post, it's not hard.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:53
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Why would they leave the dead bodies of the flight crew in their seats? Ive never heard of this before. It was some what chilling to see some of the emergency services peering through the windows of the flight deck looking at the dead bodies.

Also 3 crew? Training? Line check? Where all 3 people in the flight deck crew or was the person on the jump seat someone else??
This is not the case. I've seen it in at least one other incident that the Flight crew were left in the cockpit and there is photo evidence of it on the net, which is quite morbid in my opinion..They may not want to remove the bodies until investigators have given the all clear that they can be removed without damaging invaluable information from the scene itself. A single flick of one switch by a member of the emergency crew could change the whole investigation.

As already stated by a member, there is a number of reasons why there were 3 on the flight deck, Training, FO or captain getting a ride, Cabin crew.....who knows, not us thats for sure. Also, the injuries incurred would be unpleasent to say the least, ranging from Spinal compression, Massive trauma to the organs and extensive open fractures. What makes the situation worse is the fact that no emergency was declared in the cabin (apparently) resulting in further injury than normal. It's a miracle anyone has survived this to be honest. You only need to look at the Trident incident out of LHR to show these sort of impacts normally result in total loss of life.

EDIT


If you look at the High res images of the wreckage, you can see where the inner frame of the plane has become disjointed in the impact (Look through the windows and you can see how distorted the PAX area is...Although from the outside the plane looks relatively intact, it looks a very different picture inside.

Last edited by RiSq; 25th Feb 2009 at 17:05.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:54
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Apologies for the ghoulishness of this question, but could someone explain what's likely to have killed the flightdeck crew?
I would imagine that floor was severely distorted from the impact and lots of stuff from under it protruded into the flight deck, dislodging seats and the like. There's also a lot of stuff in a 737 to get wedged in by, yokes etc.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 16:58
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SOB

What's with this calling people SOBs?

Rather unfortunate abbreviation for the people on board (POB) in this context, even if they're in a unlucky situation.

Or is it refering to an all-fish cargo aircraft load? I wonder if you can fill a whole aircraft with soles. I prefer tuna in any case.

It's POB or total on board. Take care of your soul in church.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:01
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My closest friend who is still a flight attendant, was on board a similar crash in Spain, involving an Aviaco DC-9. It has brought her sad images. In that event, nobody was killed, and the plane was split in several parts too.

Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 03301992
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:07
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Sob / Pob

My apologies.
It was a slip of the keystroke - thinking Souls on Board - I guess it's an old term and doesn't really relate to POB - my mistake - hands up - sorry - sorry - sorry

Does it help us understand why a presumably fully serviceable, correctly fuelled, professionally 'driven' 738 flew all the way from IST to land short by 500M and losing 9 of the 138 POBs in the process.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:08
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Local media reports this was a training flight, that would explain the 3 pilots in the cockpit. Some airlines carry a extra safety pilot until the trainee has reached a certain proficency level, normally when he/she is considered to be able to safely land the aircraft alone if the instructor should get incapacitated.

It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:10
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OK Capt. I am up to pg 14 carefully reading these contributions. Were I a mod, I would have begun the delete button with the individual who speculated on what MIGHT have been the case if the plane had been an airbus.

But were I a mod, at least three quarters of YOUR so-called contributions since that point would also be in the garbage where they belong. You really do not project the professionalism of a Sully in your emotional and often inaccurate petulance.

Edit - sadly the quote feature did not work. It was basically another "here they go again" whine by a 'professional' who has been clogging the pages up with chaff for the past four pages. My point certainly loses impact when the offending post does not appear where I had thought it would be.

Last edited by finfly1; 25th Feb 2009 at 17:28.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:10
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Just a question! A loooong ways back someone replied that a 757 was ahead of the 737 on approach! I remember being behind one a few years back in an A310 which gave us quite a start? Maybe wake turbulence could be a factor?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:15
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SOB

It was my understanding that Souls on Board was a fairly common term used to identify people on board an aircraft. Is this no longer the case?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:15
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It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft.
It could have been an annual line check. Both PF and PNF might well have been well-experienced on type. It doesn't necessarily mean either was new to the aircraft. Presumably this would also be classed as a 'training flight'.

Last edited by bjkeates; 25th Feb 2009 at 17:17. Reason: added a bit to clarify point
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:16
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wake turbulence

I could understand this post if it were an A319 following at B777 heavy, but a 738 and 752 are about 20,000kgs different in the max landing wt. With correct separation it is not an issue.

The post I read that mentioned this also went on to say that it could not be confirmed if the preceding 752 was on the same approach / rwy as the 738 and so is pure conjecture
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:16
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About forum participants' unverified qualifications . . .

Numerous posters have suggested that member qualifications should be verified and approved to preclude non professional responses on technical subjects. But it's most dubious that any average, reasonable person would fork over his identity and credentials on an anonymous internet blog just to post his questions or opinions.

For those who have an aviation background it is easy to separate and ignore the driftwood from valid statements. Because on any blog there's always an element of entertainment: Persons who claim to be aviation professionals may be plumbers, morticians, musicians or housewives. So what? The network has a disqualifier statement on every page:

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."

The Journos can read that too, no?
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:18
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SOB

Hi Marsh Hawk. Yeah, SOB is still used and so is POB.
I think it might just be reflective of the politically correct - Souls versus Persons. Irrelevant here really, but thanks for your support.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:19
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olivermbs

Please tell us why it would be worse?

More heavily populated area?
Emergency teams are not as fast to respond?
Hospitals are crap in the UK?

Those are not really answers above but an attempt to get you to say something with some relevance!!!!!
No need for that tone, all I am stating is the area around LHR (you'll know if you've been there) is surrounded by heavily built up areas with roads, houses etc, note the plane landed 1 kilometer short of runway, further away than the BA777. Luckily for this incident, on approach to the Polderbaan at AMS there are mostly agricultural fields.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:27
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If true, Oxygen equipment in cabin most likely falling off-place due to the violent nature of the impact and the forces that were created instantly, not rapid decompression bs.
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Old 25th Feb 2009, 17:28
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It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft.

It could have been an annual line check. Both PF and PNF might well have been well-experienced on type. It doesn't necessarily mean either was new to the aircraft. Presumably this would also be classed as a 'training flight'.


One captain and two copilots. I put my money on this being a training flight with a new F/O.
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