Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
Hands ON the thrust levers.
This is compulsory and part of SOP's with my airline. Whenever we're flying below 2500 AAL we must have our hands on the control wheel and thrust levers.
Regardless whether we are about to make an autoland or a manual landing.
And overriding the force of the autothrottle is not hard.
Even better to disconnect the damn thing if it erroneously pulls back the levers of course.
This is compulsory and part of SOP's with my airline. Whenever we're flying below 2500 AAL we must have our hands on the control wheel and thrust levers.
Regardless whether we are about to make an autoland or a manual landing.
And overriding the force of the autothrottle is not hard.
Even better to disconnect the damn thing if it erroneously pulls back the levers of course.
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PJ2
In your post #2301 above you made some valid points.
Here is another. Surely we have been flying long enough now, to recognise that a proactive aproach to safety is the only way to go?
There have now been at least the three accidents you point to. What about that CRJ that launched off the wrong runway as an addition?
A trend is developing.................
Personally, I'm as likely to
up as the next guy- maybe more so....but, I know it!!!
IMHO....We need to get back to basics first.
I'm not dissing all the SOPs or the other good stuff.
There is a trend developing here of Pilots who think the SOPs will look after them if only they look after the SOPs.
BASIC BASIC BASIC stuff!
Are the flaps out? Are we pointing the right way? Whose flying this thing?
Where the are we? Are we too slow? Look at that TS at the end of the runway!
I do not see enough of this in the sim or even in line flying.
A trend is developing.
We either let it go further...............or not.
In your post #2301 above you made some valid points.
Here is another. Surely we have been flying long enough now, to recognise that a proactive aproach to safety is the only way to go?
There have now been at least the three accidents you point to. What about that CRJ that launched off the wrong runway as an addition?
A trend is developing.................
Personally, I'm as likely to
up as the next guy- maybe more so....but, I know it!!!IMHO....We need to get back to basics first.
I'm not dissing all the SOPs or the other good stuff.
There is a trend developing here of Pilots who think the SOPs will look after them if only they look after the SOPs.
BASIC BASIC BASIC stuff!
Are the flaps out? Are we pointing the right way? Whose flying this thing?
Where the
are we? Are we too slow? Look at that TS at the end of the runway!I do not see enough of this in the sim or even in line flying.
A trend is developing.
We either let it go further...............or not.
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Originally Posted by FireflyBob
BarbiesBoyfriend, my sentiments also. My hallucination is that I see people that lack imagination about what can or might happen.
I have it also when driving, watching the dreadful lack of car control, and particularly poor steering, caused by powered steering... it's shocking the way so many do not understand even basics of holding the steering wheel so that - if necessary - it can actually be USED seriously, this lackadaisical approach to control indicating a gross lack of imagination (by driving defensively)
The steering wheel and control of it has saved my life several times, the brake pedal maybe once.
Fondling the gearlever continually, a lethal past-time when both hands should be on the wheel. You usually find these single-handed powered steering 'gurus' in the larger cars - hence their total lack of an imminent sense of danger or injury!
Why do not people these days sense imminent danger... I think everyone in control of vehicles should HAVE to undergo a highly realistic crash simulation and its aftermath before being allowed out in public! Pilots and drivers alike...
I'm wondering if there might be some sort of analogy... either between the sense of immunity engendered by modern large cars and large aircraft (try a microlight or glider now and again!) or powered steering and automation.
It's seems to be a fact that even 40 years ago everyone in a fast machine of whatever type had a much more developed sense of danger, due to less isolation from the forces at play in controlling their vehicles...
Last edited by HarryMann; 16th Apr 2009 at 00:10.
This accident also reminds me of the Poor Judgement/Error Chain theory which, if I recall correctly, states that once one poor judgement has been made then there is a higher probability that another poor judgement will follow etc. As the error chain continues the amount of time required to recover reduces, initially slowly, but then at an almost exponential rate. Simply put once they got the stick shake there was minimal time to recover. If the error chain was corrected early (for example by resorting to manual flight once it was observed that the automation wasn't behaving as expected) it would have been seen as a minor glitch as opposed to a major accident.
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Assuming they were intercepting the G/S from above, faster than they would needed to be, they were naturally EXPECTING the somehow longish and gradual slowing down, hence the apparent inattention to speed parameters until it was too late; they’re attention to speed (as well as fmgc modes, engine parameters) was turned into another direction, probably because they knew it would take some time for the speed to drop to a reasonable value.
Their minds were for some strange reason occupied with some other thing that they’ve felt more important to deal with. That’s the real mystery here.
Their minds were for some strange reason occupied with some other thing that they’ve felt more important to deal with. That’s the real mystery here.
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There is a real mystery here for me. I understand this was a check flight for the RHS pilot; part of a conversion course to the NG. In light of that I would have expected all the crew to be very alert, certainly the T.C. Let's wait until the CVR is released, which hopefully will answer this query.
About guarding controls. I am dismayed at how many students/cadets on TQ course LST's fly the NPA & Cirle to Land procedures head in and hands off. This is a basic lack of discipline in the teaching phase. Bad airmanship. 150hr cadets do not necessarily yet have airline airmanship and it needs to be drumed in from day 1. I see then same thing with PNF not covering the rudders on takeoff or final approach. I'd always thought it prudent that, in critical stages of flight, PNF should be able to takeover control instantly.
The same should apply for PF should the automatics mis-behave,
About guarding controls. I am dismayed at how many students/cadets on TQ course LST's fly the NPA & Cirle to Land procedures head in and hands off. This is a basic lack of discipline in the teaching phase. Bad airmanship. 150hr cadets do not necessarily yet have airline airmanship and it needs to be drumed in from day 1. I see then same thing with PNF not covering the rudders on takeoff or final approach. I'd always thought it prudent that, in critical stages of flight, PNF should be able to takeover control instantly.
The same should apply for PF should the automatics mis-behave,
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Do you want the PNF covering the controls when you are flying?
That is a magnificent way for him to evaluate my inputs on the controls, and therefore to evaluate the overall situation.
Rainboe, covering does not mean interfering, but it keeps you one step ahead if you need to ...
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Rainboe: I think you have missed my point. Covering controls is not 'follow me through' as in good old light a/c instruction. There is no interference, just prudent alertness to be able to takeover for whatever reason. I would hope captains cover the controls of low experience F/O's landings and X-wind takeoffs and nasty gusty days.
Circle to lands. A simulator is a training tool for the real world. If you fly circling head in, and are not disciplined to search outside, it is very likely you will do the same in reality. That is not the best use of a simulator; to instill correct techniques for the live a/c.
Circle to lands. A simulator is a training tool for the real world. If you fly circling head in, and are not disciplined to search outside, it is very likely you will do the same in reality. That is not the best use of a simulator; to instill correct techniques for the live a/c.
I agree with Rainboe; I don't cover controls when the F/O is flying and I don't see any necessity for him to do it when I'm flying.
It only takes a nanosecond to get your hands and feet where you need them when you need them.
It only takes a nanosecond to get your hands and feet where you need them when you need them.
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Ref Circle-to-land (hopefully 
)
The procedure used by our biggest lo-co involves the PF flying the aircraft by autopilot with the PNF carrying out various checklist items/monitoring timing etc.
The workload involved leaves precious little time for heads-up, and indeed as has been pointed out, in the Sim there is not much to see if the vis has been set to the minimum for the procedure.
I have the impression that the whole circle part is nowadays treated as an "instrument approach" directed via the MCP and that you are only being expected to search for visual cues/contact during the turn from base to final.
The positive aspect of this is that more accurate patterns are possibly being achieved, the negative is that what is supposed to be a visual segment keeping the R/W in view which "should" be aborted if R/W contact is lost, IMHO is not being taught nor flown on the line as thus.
Even more alarmingly some of the new generation of Capt's (
) nurtured for several years of doing it this way, are hopelessly unable to fly a basic visual approach a la Cessna 150. The implications for this on a dark dirty night with the automatics misbehaving are only too obvious.
Still, as long as you can regurgetate that double-brief it will all be fine . . . . . right ? ?
)The procedure used by our biggest lo-co involves the PF flying the aircraft by autopilot with the PNF carrying out various checklist items/monitoring timing etc.
The workload involved leaves precious little time for heads-up, and indeed as has been pointed out, in the Sim there is not much to see if the vis has been set to the minimum for the procedure.
I have the impression that the whole circle part is nowadays treated as an "instrument approach" directed via the MCP and that you are only being expected to search for visual cues/contact during the turn from base to final.
The positive aspect of this is that more accurate patterns are possibly being achieved, the negative is that what is supposed to be a visual segment keeping the R/W in view which "should" be aborted if R/W contact is lost, IMHO is not being taught nor flown on the line as thus.
Even more alarmingly some of the new generation of Capt's (
) nurtured for several years of doing it this way, are hopelessly unable to fly a basic visual approach a la Cessna 150. The implications for this on a dark dirty night with the automatics misbehaving are only too obvious.Still, as long as you can regurgetate that double-brief it will all be fine . . . . . right ? ?
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I read today in the local media that the first crash survivors and families who lost someone in the crash are taking Boeing and TK to court in Chicago. They want to find out what went wrong during the flight, find out who made the altimeters etc. and get more money out of them.
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Sims are difficult to fly in circle to land maneuvers because of the restricted side visibility so I can understand using special techniques to get in position to see again the landing runway. I can't imagine a pilot thinking this is the way to do it in real flight with good side visibility. Tell me it is not true.
It only takes a nanosecond to get your hands and feet where you need them when you need them.
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bubbers 44 & Rainboe,
Agreed completely, that is how it should be done, BUT I have flown with guys, who on a Cavok day (with the R/W on their side) elected to fly visual circuits using circle-to-land type timings, and , ignoring all the info available out the window, screwed up the turn onto the centreline and got too high, whilst dicking around with the automatics.
Some of these wonderful aviators now find themselves not only as Capt's, but in some cases in the lofty role of LTC or even TRI.
Go figure
Oh, but their "double-briefings" were word perfect, shame about what was unfolding outside the window though, it didn't seem to feature highly enough in their priorities.
"Flying by numbers" doesn't come close. . . . .
Agreed completely, that is how it should be done, BUT I have flown with guys, who on a Cavok day (with the R/W on their side) elected to fly visual circuits using circle-to-land type timings, and , ignoring all the info available out the window, screwed up the turn onto the centreline and got too high, whilst dicking around with the automatics.
Some of these wonderful aviators now find themselves not only as Capt's, but in some cases in the lofty role of LTC or even TRI.
Go figure
Oh, but their "double-briefings" were word perfect, shame about what was unfolding outside the window though, it didn't seem to feature highly enough in their priorities.
"Flying by numbers" doesn't come close. . . . .
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Ah, the "double-briefing"! Talk about desk pilot nonsense. 
I'm sooo glad we don't have that crap in our company 
I think the issues raised in this thread just about sum up the state of the business today:
Double briefings, timing on visual or circling approach, SOP-nazis and low timers dicking around without proper training or follow-up. It used to be all about knowledge and skill.
No amount of Swiss Cheese or cozy-crm-talk in the classroom is ever gonna prevent an accident. As long as Mr. Reason cannot tell me exactly how to predict where and when that next "hole in the cheese" will appear, I'll just keep doing business as usual.
Recommend Sidney Dekkers excellent books on the subject of so-called human error!
I'm sooo glad we don't have that crap in our company I think the issues raised in this thread just about sum up the state of the business today:
Double briefings, timing on visual or circling approach, SOP-nazis and low timers dicking around without proper training or follow-up. It used to be all about knowledge and skill.
No amount of Swiss Cheese or cozy-crm-talk in the classroom is ever gonna prevent an accident. As long as Mr. Reason cannot tell me exactly how to predict where and when that next "hole in the cheese" will appear, I'll just keep doing business as usual.
Recommend Sidney Dekkers excellent books on the subject of so-called human error!