Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Lost In Saigon
My post was intended as an illustration of turbine damage in answer to another contributor's question, not a post mortem on the BA777 incident. I thought that was made clear.
...Turbine blades..... Sorry Fan Blades.... Too many earlies
The article you linked to is very old and appears to be in error
...Turbine blades..... Sorry Fan Blades.... Too many earlies
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Age: 79
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dani,
The SAS MD-81 that crashlanded in 1991 had a landing run of 110 meters.
It did not stall - speed 121 kts when touching some trees and 107 kts (flaps full) at touch down. G-force at touch down 2.09. ROD last 10 sec.: 1536 ft./min.
Number of serious casualties 8. minor around 80. No fatalities.
It appears that it is important NOT to stall.
Link to the accident report:
http://www.havkom.se/eng/pdf/C1993_57e.pdf
brgds
It did not stall - speed 121 kts when touching some trees and 107 kts (flaps full) at touch down. G-force at touch down 2.09. ROD last 10 sec.: 1536 ft./min.
Number of serious casualties 8. minor around 80. No fatalities.
It appears that it is important NOT to stall.
Link to the accident report:
http://www.havkom.se/eng/pdf/C1993_57e.pdf
brgds
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 26th Feb 2009 at 18:12.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Magic Kingdom
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Dutch Athorities are also leaning towards the engines
From AP:
From AP:
Investigator Pieter van Vollenhoven said, in remarks quoted by Dutch state television NOS, that the Boeing 737-800 had fallen almost directly from the sky, which pointed toward the plane's engines having stalled. He said a reason for that had not yet been established.
Spokeswoman Sandra Groenendal of the Dutch Safety Authority confirmed his remarks and added that stalled engines on the plane were still "one of the possible scenarios" for the crash.
Spokeswoman Sandra Groenendal of the Dutch Safety Authority confirmed his remarks and added that stalled engines on the plane were still "one of the possible scenarios" for the crash.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look now at the second image of the other engine and you will see that the turbine blades are all intact even though the nacelle has hit the ground quite hard and scooped in a lot of dirt in the process. This engine was not rotating at impact and therefore could not have been producing any thrust.
As is also witnessed by the BA incident, a total loss of thrust below 1000' can be brought so a safe outcome given favourable terrain.
As is also witnessed by the BA incident, a total loss of thrust below 1000' can be brought so a safe outcome given favourable terrain.
The BA777 did not have a total loss of thrust, and the lack of visible damage to the right engine didn't prove a thing.
The visible condition of the Turkish 737's engines also don't mean a thing at this point.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Thessaloniki, GRECE
Age: 41
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Photo from the interior of the plane after the crash:
http://www.rtl.nl/components/actueel...l_schiphol.jpg
RTL Nieuws.nl - Eerste foto binnenkant ramptoestel
http://www.rtl.nl/components/actueel...l_schiphol.jpg
RTL Nieuws.nl - Eerste foto binnenkant ramptoestel
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE England
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cockpit door
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
And what the XXXX caused that damage to the cockpit roof? The nose gear is further back, so I don't think the strut could have done that. There must have been some massive forces acting at the pointy end when they hit the ground.
It looks like the cockpit door stanchion (doorframe) which I think is why in one video you see the fire service guy trying to hammer it back down, probably in an attempt to open the door.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desertdiner, I think that's just journalist misinterpretation of the term 'stalled', taking it to mean stalling like a car engine (taking 'the aircraft stalled' to mean the same as 'my car stalled'). 'Falling directly from the sky' points more toward the kind of stall that everyone's been talking about on this thread.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TK safety record
Much has been made of TK's safety record down through the years and it is true that, at first glance, its safety record is not stellar. However, in fairness to TK, it should be pointed out that Turkish Airlines is one of the world's fastest growing carriers; over the past three years alone, its growth in pax numbers has been significant:
2006 17m
2007 19.7m
2008 22.5m - a growth of around a third in two years.
Recent years, prior to 2005, have seen significant growth as well. Taking at face value a statement, made in the media, that TK has one of the worst safety record in Europe ignores the fact that the TK of the 70s and 80s is a much different airline than the TK of today, flying a much smaller fleet and far fewer pax. A far fairer comparison, I think, is to look at how the strong growth in the past few years has been managed.
2006 17m
2007 19.7m
2008 22.5m - a growth of around a third in two years.
Recent years, prior to 2005, have seen significant growth as well. Taking at face value a statement, made in the media, that TK has one of the worst safety record in Europe ignores the fact that the TK of the 70s and 80s is a much different airline than the TK of today, flying a much smaller fleet and far fewer pax. A far fairer comparison, I think, is to look at how the strong growth in the past few years has been managed.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Up in the air. Sweden sometimes
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Turkish union critical to THY
The turkish civil aviation union, with more than 12.000 members, wrote on their website 18 february (!) that THY is ignoring the most fundamental parts in keeping flight safety on a high level, pointing specifically at bad maintaining of a/c.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Investigator Pieter van Vollenhoven said ... pointed toward the plane's engines having stalled.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE England
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stick pusher
Originally Posted by captplaystation
Belgique & dani, 737 is not fitted with stick pusher (no t-tail no deep-stall) merely stick shaker x2................................
Not quite correct, some are fitted with them. The G -regn ones I worked on for many years were. From memory they are fitted more to provide a positive indication of the stall (a stick nudger) rather than a stall recovery device. After stick shake the stick sedately moves forward a couple on inches. Nothing like the panel shattering stick push of the Trident.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The SAS MD-81 that crashlanded in 1991 had a landing run of 110 meters.
It did not stall - speed 121 kts when touching some trees and 107 kts (flaps full) at touch down. G-force at touch down 2.09. ROD last 10 sec.: 1536 ft./min.
It did not stall - speed 121 kts when touching some trees and 107 kts (flaps full) at touch down. G-force at touch down 2.09. ROD last 10 sec.: 1536 ft./min.
I mean it's obvious that this aircraft landed relatively soft. If nearly all survived. RoyHod, have you ever had to land some 60 tons of metal on a soft field??? Most probably the injuries happened where the fuselage cracked or where structure failed internally.
The misconception leads from the definition of "low speed". It means the aircraft didn't drill itself into a hole. It means that this aircraft came in at landing configuration and speed. I seriously doubt that a investigation spokesman would give hints about such a critical circumstance like the speed at such an early stage on the proceedings. I guess LiS's citation is an interpretation of one or more journalists.
Dani
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: EGMH..a down, not yet out, formerly awesome airfield
Age: 55
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
snippet from BBC News at 19:17
Engine failure may have been a factor in Wednesday's crash of a Turkish Airlines plane at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport, the chief investigator says.
Pieter van Vollenhoven told Dutch state television that the way the aircraft fell directly from the sky suggested that its engines might have stalled.
Nine people were killed when the Boeing 737-800 crashed short of the runway.
A Dutch official said five Turks and four Americans were among the dead. Six people remain in a critical condition.
Eighty-six people were injured altogether.
Mr Van Vollenhoven, chairman of the Dutch Safety Board, said a reason for the apparent engine failure had not yet been established.
"If you then lose speed, you then literally fall out of the sky," he was quoted as saying.
Dutch officials have taken the flight data and voice recorders to Paris, where French authorities are providing technical assistance.
Mr Van Vollenhoven said analysis of the recorders might be completed as early as Friday, but that the Dutch Safety Board would probably not announce any preliminary findings until next week.
"We hope to have a firmer grip as soon as possible," he told NOS television, adding that the information retrieved from the recorders was of high quality and would aid reconstruction of the accident.
Pieter van Vollenhoven told Dutch state television that the way the aircraft fell directly from the sky suggested that its engines might have stalled.
Nine people were killed when the Boeing 737-800 crashed short of the runway.
A Dutch official said five Turks and four Americans were among the dead. Six people remain in a critical condition.
Eighty-six people were injured altogether.
Mr Van Vollenhoven, chairman of the Dutch Safety Board, said a reason for the apparent engine failure had not yet been established.
"If you then lose speed, you then literally fall out of the sky," he was quoted as saying.
Dutch officials have taken the flight data and voice recorders to Paris, where French authorities are providing technical assistance.
Mr Van Vollenhoven said analysis of the recorders might be completed as early as Friday, but that the Dutch Safety Board would probably not announce any preliminary findings until next week.
"We hope to have a firmer grip as soon as possible," he told NOS television, adding that the information retrieved from the recorders was of high quality and would aid reconstruction of the accident.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: southwest
Age: 78
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OH NO! "Dutch officials have taken the flight data and voice recorders to Paris, where French authorities are providing technical assistance."
P.S. as perfect a landing as Hetfield's cat falling from a tree.
P.S. as perfect a landing as Hetfield's cat falling from a tree.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: wherever
Age: 55
Posts: 1,616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that we know the AC had a GS of 88kt and the wind was relatively calm would those claiming a near perfect landing like to explain how they come to their conclusion?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dani -
I'm glad I don't have to ride through any of your "normal" landings!
I assume that the ROD must have been less than 1000 ft/min, most probably less than 500. (normal sink rate at touchdown 100-300).