Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
Thanks, Kate.
Not a 737 expert, but wouldn't the crew have to first disarm the slide before opening a door? It looks like a strong impact, I remember the BA 777 ending up intact but also on the ground with no landing gear. All but two slides were popped there.
Not a 737 expert, but wouldn't the crew have to first disarm the slide before opening a door? It looks like a strong impact, I remember the BA 777 ending up intact but also on the ground with no landing gear. All but two slides were popped there.
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This is shaping up as one of the most disappointing years in aviation safety in recent history - the only redeeming feature is the high level of survivability shown in some of these high profile incidents.
The airport authorities might try and steer you into an 'on limits' landing, but the final decision rests entirely with the crew. Many a time I have requested a runway change, and recieved it, due to wind limits.
Sky now replaying the ATC, although its the ground freq. lots of people being asked to STANDBY. Hardly newsworthy, and purely sensationalising it all.
runway in use and the required max tailwinds etc
Sky now replaying the ATC, although its the ground freq. lots of people being asked to STANDBY. Hardly newsworthy, and purely sensationalising it all.
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Wake up world!
Early speculation is never a good thing, not even on a rumour forum like this one!
What is sure is that the professional aviation/pilot organisations worldwide made predictions that are coming true unfortunately.
SAFETY in aviation stagnated in the last two years...
ACCIDENTS/INCIDENTS will be on a sharp rise over the coming years.
AIRLINES are failing to invest more in safety due to complacency. Current credit crisis is not helping in this aspect either.
PILOT training and the job-appeal of the professional has been deliberatly downgraded by airlines. This resulted in lower quality training and selection.
Nobody knows what caused this accident so far, and it might be due to the weather or a malfunction, but I just feel we had too many crashed the last two months!
Turkish Airlines is the fastest growing airline in Europe, sponsored by the Turkish governement to increase the country's public profile. It is a known fact that the pressure this brings with it has made Turkish Airlines one of the toughest companies to work for as a pilot. Pilot standards always have been average and their FT/DT limitations (rules under which they roster crew and plan the flights) are awfully tiring and demanding! Arriving in EHAM at 9h30 (I think was ETA) means they left IST at 4h30 (2h30 local time). If we could only see what the pilots where doing before this flight, I am pretty certain they only had minimum rest before this flight!
Once more, I am not saying this is what caused this unfortunate accident, but it might be a contributing factor!
Flight Intl together with several organisations are setting up a worldwide campain to improve aviation safety, upgrade the respect toward pilots and flightcrew. FT/DT regulations are slowly being changed by the governing organisations ( JAA Subpart Q) but this is facing heavy oposition from the airlines!
I think, and so is Flight Intl, that it is time the general public becomes aware of whatis going on in AVIATION.
I am always wondering how many people would actually get on board of their airplane as a passenger if they should know how tired and fatigued the crew is (cabin and flightdeck), how hard these airplanes are being pushed (maintenance etc)...
What is sure is that the professional aviation/pilot organisations worldwide made predictions that are coming true unfortunately.
SAFETY in aviation stagnated in the last two years...
ACCIDENTS/INCIDENTS will be on a sharp rise over the coming years.
AIRLINES are failing to invest more in safety due to complacency. Current credit crisis is not helping in this aspect either.
PILOT training and the job-appeal of the professional has been deliberatly downgraded by airlines. This resulted in lower quality training and selection.
Nobody knows what caused this accident so far, and it might be due to the weather or a malfunction, but I just feel we had too many crashed the last two months!
Turkish Airlines is the fastest growing airline in Europe, sponsored by the Turkish governement to increase the country's public profile. It is a known fact that the pressure this brings with it has made Turkish Airlines one of the toughest companies to work for as a pilot. Pilot standards always have been average and their FT/DT limitations (rules under which they roster crew and plan the flights) are awfully tiring and demanding! Arriving in EHAM at 9h30 (I think was ETA) means they left IST at 4h30 (2h30 local time). If we could only see what the pilots where doing before this flight, I am pretty certain they only had minimum rest before this flight!
Once more, I am not saying this is what caused this unfortunate accident, but it might be a contributing factor!
Flight Intl together with several organisations are setting up a worldwide campain to improve aviation safety, upgrade the respect toward pilots and flightcrew. FT/DT regulations are slowly being changed by the governing organisations ( JAA Subpart Q) but this is facing heavy oposition from the airlines!
I think, and so is Flight Intl, that it is time the general public becomes aware of whatis going on in AVIATION.
I am always wondering how many people would actually get on board of their airplane as a passenger if they should know how tired and fatigued the crew is (cabin and flightdeck), how hard these airplanes are being pushed (maintenance etc)...
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close up pics
here some very grim close-up pics
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP-9259316.jpg
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...hschiphol2.jpg
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP-9259316.jpg
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...hschiphol2.jpg
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either the impact was too strong and stopped the slides from deploying or the crew were very efficient and managed to anaylise the situation quick enough to disarm the slides! anything is possible but it seemed to work out right as there r many survivors.
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Being a 737-800 pillot myself, I wonder if for some reason the auto throttle had been disengaged and the crew did not notice. The speed reduces and the crew did not notice, stall warning, apply power, aggressive pitch/power couple which leads to a further stall. If they were unable to recover from that then it could have come down. It happened at another airline recently, although without an actual crash occurring.
Busz
Busz
Survivor reports feeling turbulence shortly before impact.
Eyewitness reports that aircraft flew 'unusually slow' in a very nose-high attitude before 'dropping straight down, hitting the ground tail-first'.
Unconfirmed report of engines not producing thrust on impact.
More pics:
SpitsNieuws : 'Lichamen onder lakens het vliegtuig uit'
Tailsection looks very badly damaged indeed.
Eyewitness reports that aircraft flew 'unusually slow' in a very nose-high attitude before 'dropping straight down, hitting the ground tail-first'.
Unconfirmed report of engines not producing thrust on impact.
More pics:
SpitsNieuws : 'Lichamen onder lakens het vliegtuig uit'
Tailsection looks very badly damaged indeed.
Last edited by Longhitter; 25th Feb 2009 at 10:39. Reason: added link
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Survivability of Impact
If there are fatalities / serious injuries there may not have been time to alert passengers about bracing themselves, according to the passenger report. That being the case passengers may have hit their heads on the seat in front as they were not in a brace position. Very sad, but hope I am wrong and that there are no fatalities / serious injuries.
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No fire??
Given the extent of the damage, and the apparent lack of any fire, wouldnt it be a reasonable assumption that there was no fuel left in the tanks and the plane fell short of the runway?
This of course would raise the question as to why the crew didnt raise an alarm of low fuel and take appropriate action prior to it getting to the stage we now see.
Not intending to speculate - just interested to know if it's possible to have fuel in the tanks, have such substantial airframe damage but still have no fire.
This of course would raise the question as to why the crew didnt raise an alarm of low fuel and take appropriate action prior to it getting to the stage we now see.
Not intending to speculate - just interested to know if it's possible to have fuel in the tanks, have such substantial airframe damage but still have no fire.
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Congratulations to the crew
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Those hi-res pictures just send shivers down my back. Let's pray to whichever entity we believe in that everybody got away with this one, and the only casualty is related to Mr Boeing. The tail section looks the worst. Here's hoping.
It seems not unlike the 777 at Heathrow, albeit a lot further out from the threshold. Windshear? Seems unlikely if no one else reported it. Fuel starvation/contamination? We'll find out in due course.
It seems not unlike the 777 at Heathrow, albeit a lot further out from the threshold. Windshear? Seems unlikely if no one else reported it. Fuel starvation/contamination? We'll find out in due course.
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Well, a fire requires a rupture of tanks/fuel lines and a source of ignition.
The hot engines appear to have detached, so are far from any leaking fuel, and the wings seem to be fairly intact, so there was no misted fuel to ignite easily and then spread to pools of fuel. In addition, the ploughed field is ideal for soaking up leaks and making it much harder to ignite. It also has the useful property of being soft and so absorbing impact forces, which helps to reduce deceleration injuries.
@DaveReid
I saw the small areas of damage you mentioned, and seeing the condition of the rest of the fuselage I'd guess it would be the frames of the cockpit bukhead being pushed upwards as the fuselage distorted from below, rupturing the top skin. Or maybe the structure around any galleys/toilets aft of the cockpit.
Make sense?
The hot engines appear to have detached, so are far from any leaking fuel, and the wings seem to be fairly intact, so there was no misted fuel to ignite easily and then spread to pools of fuel. In addition, the ploughed field is ideal for soaking up leaks and making it much harder to ignite. It also has the useful property of being soft and so absorbing impact forces, which helps to reduce deceleration injuries.
@DaveReid
I saw the small areas of damage you mentioned, and seeing the condition of the rest of the fuselage I'd guess it would be the frames of the cockpit bukhead being pushed upwards as the fuselage distorted from below, rupturing the top skin. Or maybe the structure around any galleys/toilets aft of the cockpit.
Make sense?
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Geraldine Coughlan on Sky
"The Polderbaan is one of the safest runways at AMS"
That suggests some are not quite so safe or are dangerous.
UTTER TOSH!
I do wish they would just keep to the facts.
"The Polderbaan is one of the safest runways at AMS"
That suggests some are not quite so safe or are dangerous.
UTTER TOSH!
I do wish they would just keep to the facts.
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‘Brace Brace’ Announcement
Quite rightly, announcing to passengers what is going in is low in the priority list when pilots are dealing with an emergency. They need to deal with the situation and tell pax what is going on later.
However, if there is small chance that an aircraft may crash-land / very hard-land (call it what you will), should it not be the case that the ‘brace brace’ announcement is made as a matter of routine? Although this will scare some passengers on the occasions it is not needed, could it help prevent head trauma injuries that could be avoided?
(Question asked with no speculation at all on the cause of this accident).
However, if there is small chance that an aircraft may crash-land / very hard-land (call it what you will), should it not be the case that the ‘brace brace’ announcement is made as a matter of routine? Although this will scare some passengers on the occasions it is not needed, could it help prevent head trauma injuries that could be avoided?
(Question asked with no speculation at all on the cause of this accident).
Last edited by Bridge Builder; 25th Feb 2009 at 11:03.