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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 26th Feb 2009, 00:08
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stall warning & recovery on 737NG

Not suggesting that this is what happened or that it was a factor in this accident, but someone mentioned the possibility of A/THR not set and the a/c stalling due to high pitch / low speed condition.

Could someone that is current on the 737NG please clarify some what-if questions:
(a) Assuming you have auto-pilot (or both) engaged but not A/THR, airspeed gets to low and you enter or approach a stall, what would the aircraft do or not do itself if the pilots did nothing? Is there something similar to Airbus' alpha floor on them Boeings?
(b) Does the autopilot disconnect when the stall warner goes off?
(c) What is the standard procedure for stall recovery in landing configuration and at low altitude on the 737NG?
(d) As a [very] rough guess, what ball park range of altitude loss are we talking about assuming that recovery actions are performed as soon as the stall warner goes off given their configuration and prevailing conditions?

Thx for your help!
Uncle Maxwell
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 00:24
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Obviously the Airport can only operate with 'Adequate' fire cover, But I would have thought some of the Airport Fire vehicles, I don't know how many they have at AMS would have returned to provide that cover for 1 or 2 of the runways to get working again after their being no risk of fire or explosion after a period of time?

Also if the impact was outside of the Airport perimeter, I would have thought it would be on the Civilian Fire departments map?
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 01:00
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Winglets and engine wreckage

I don't have the answers so skip this post

However for those who are wracking their brains around angels on the head of a pin.

Engines have a tendancy to go forward of the airframe when they come off early and the airframe slows down a lot more due to sliding friction. Even an unpowered engine will roll and bounce quite a distance since it doesn't slide very much once it's loose.

Aircraft slding along the ground in soft earth will rooster tail lots of dirt up over the wobbling sliding wings. The dirt likely could have some serious erosive inpact on composite winglets.

Now if any of these little bits are so very critical to what happened and you really have to know, then wait a day and see which way the investigators are focusing
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 01:12
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Hey loma, do you work for the NTSB ? You must have studied many crash sites to come up with those statements as to what goes where after a crash
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 01:23
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Could someone that is current on the 737NG please clarify some what-if questions:
(a) Assuming you have auto-pilot (or both) engaged but not A/THR, airspeed gets to low and you enter or approach a stall, what would the aircraft do or not do itself if the pilots did nothing? Is there something similar to Airbus' alpha floor on them Boeings?
(b) Does the autopilot disconnect when the stall warner goes off?
(c) What is the standard procedure for stall recovery in landing configuration and at low altitude on the 737NG?
(d) As a [very] rough guess, what ball park range of altitude loss are we talking about assuming that recovery actions are performed as soon as the stall warner goes off given their configuration and prevailing conditions?
a)Minimum speed reversion is not available with AT off and AFDS in ALT HOLD or after GS capture.
b)NO
c)Firewall thrust,5deg ANU(seat position is critical here..below 100,ensure seat position is correct,shoulder harness on,both feet guarding rudder pedals,one hand shadowing TL movement..not enough emphasis put on this in training..Ive seen some sorry pictures in my time,seat way back,feet planted on the floor and lackadaisical operation of the critical stages of flight through the MCP..not the way to do it)
d)"As soon as" are the key words..if the reaction by the pilot to the stall is firm,immediate and correctly performed,height loss should be minimal.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 01:25
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Byalpha india Although in Dutch this should give you an idea of the number of fire vehicles available at Schiphol's three Fire Stations.

Unfortunately only 32 of the 120 firemen (info from that site) would have been on duty at any one time. I imagine most of them attended as rescue workers. After working in what was described by a survivor as a blood bath would you expect them to just pick up what they had been doing at the moment of the crash?
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 02:01
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Three parts

To account for the three pieces, here is my opinion based on the aerial views (See NOSJOURNAAL).

Aircraft struck nose up. This means the tail section hits first (BREAK1; where elevator is found, about 1/4 mile before the rest of the aircraft). No longer having a tail and with CG normally FWD center of lift (no elevator at all) the airplane started pitching down. As a result the attitude changed rather quickly to point the nose down in the last few moments. When the nose hit, it caused the 2nd fuselage break resulting in 3 pieces.

Best to you all. Hope no-one close to you is hurt
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 02:34
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Lucky day for the pax, But a sad day for the Flight deck crew.

The crash would have been a lot worse if they had been on approach to R 29? over a built up area - Where the EL AL 747 crashed.

I would be looking at Fuel or lack of as a possibility in this crash?
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 02:58
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wingtip anomoly

some questions i have that i would like to know:

1) where are the tail plane elevators?
2) why are the wingtips sheared in half but not detached from the wing
3) aerial shots - where are these? it would show track of a/c hitting mud
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 03:13
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Dear loveJet,
The answers upon which I based my speculation are here; video 4:

NOSJOURNAAL - Zeker 9 doden bij vliegongeluk Schiphol

You can clearly see the elevator separated from the rest of the aircraft. This is what I believe caused the three pieces as I mentioned in the earlier post.

Regards
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 04:05
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Pprune has been going for around 10 years, of which I have been on for the majority of it. There has never been any change in the way people post and respond when there are accidents and incidents and GUESS WHAT; there never will be. So what is the point of the ridiculous 'post and opinion police' every time coming on saying what people should or shouldn't say. Live with it, your posts are as much use as the ones you are criticising.
If you disagree with them give us an interesting informed argument.
The best way to resolve any investigation is to eliminate first all the most unlikely ideas then you will be left with the answer. So please, people with ideas keep those posts coming. Its called democracy and free expression. Many, many people have died for this right or at least that is what they were told.
If the posts are too ridiculous then they are at least amusing, some very to those of us who do have some knowledge.

As for the new posters asking why there are no condolences required, try reading back a few thousand threads and see where 75% of the thread is taken up with sorry this, sorry that, prayers to some god or other etc. blah blah blah. Planes crash, people die. We know you are sorry, every one is. Why aren't you sorry when people all over the world die from malnutrition, abuse and unnecessary conflict to make money for corporate enterprises.
If you want to start a condolences thread please do so and the mods can make it a sticky which is universal for all accidents.

Oh and I might as well add my speculation for fun to keep the continuity; perhaps the Auto throttle disconnected and no one noticed as there is no alarm. Similar to the Thomsonfly incident a while back.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 04:19
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Aviatoratheart and md80fanatic: You guys are talking past one another.

In describing red stains etc. md80fanatic was, I believe, suggesting signs of a BIRD STRIKE in the engine, in light of previous suggestions of a bird strike as a possible cause - not as evidence of HUMAN passenger injury.

AaH read the more grisly interpretation and was offended.

be careful in reading and writing posts to make sure that 1) you absolutely positively* understand what is meant and that 2) you have been as absolutely, positively as clear and unambiguous as possible.

*To borrow a tagline frm the freight dogs
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 04:31
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A fully agree with pilotbear. I've read every post on this thread that I can (no doubt missed some that have been removed before I got to see them).

May I suggest that a mod starts a thread where condolences for all accidents can be posted, and kept to that thread. This should keep those people happy who want to keep condolences off the accident threads, and provide an outlet for those who want to express their condolences. Anyone not wanting to see condolences expressed doesn't have to click on the thread, do they?

As an enthusiast and very occasional SLF I come here to find out about any latest accidents/incidents. I also use these threads to provide leads to find material for articles on Wikipedia. I sometimes have a question about an aspect of a crash and will ask it.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 05:18
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1) where are the tail plane elevators?
There is a very interesting airborne video (Dutch Police) on the BBC web site
BBC NEWS | Europe | Aerial pictures of plane crash scene

The stabilizer appears to be in one piece, about two fuselage lengths behind the main wreckage. It is either inverted or has been rotated horizontally through 180 degrees.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 06:35
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What do you mean what price alpha floor?-you don't have it if the a/t isn't on.
Please just limit yourself to reading the comments don't waste page space trying to look knowledgeable.

Airbus only...

The point being if it was a Stall then in an Airbus protection laws are available to help the crew in this situation.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 07:14
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The point being if it was a Stall then in an Airbus protection laws are available to help the crew in this situation.
unless the plane runs out of fuel at the same time......
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 07:35
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I know you hate speculation but ... one of the photos suggests they may have been faced with a line of trees. Perhaps some trading of airspeed was required to clear them?
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 07:45
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Engine damage?

Hard to be conclusive, given the damage to the cowling/intake, but this photo appears to show significantly less fan damage to No1 engine compared to the photos previously posted of No2:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../2/1489234.jpg

Just an observation.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 08:40
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Speculation

I read these comments with some interest but having been with a GAPAN group to the UK Air Accident Investigation Branch unit I know the enormous detail they go into to determine the real cause or causes and especially the chain of events leading to impact. Most, as has often been stated, are a sequence of events and rarely one factor that cause an accident. The comments on this forum have only scratched the surface but for sure the aircraft appears to have been in a stalled mode with tail down and nose up at first impact or to put it another way insufficient air speed close to the ground coupled to insufficient height to recover before hitting the ground.

One thing does surprise me. Why did the flight deck all succumb when they would have had full harness and more warning of the pending accident than anybody else? The cockpit area seems relatively undamaged.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 08:48
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One thing does surprise me. Why did the flight deck all succumb when they would have had full harness and more warning of the pending accident than anybody else? The cockpit area seems relatively undamaged.
I would imagine it is because the cockpit area is at the end of the a large pivot/moment arm. i.e. if it hit tailfirst with the nose high then the rapid deceleration (short skid length) will have derotated the cockpit into the ground with enormous force. Evidently non-surviable force.

It will be interesting to see the distribution and seriousness of the injuries in the final report. Based on my theory (just that) the nearer the front the more likely you would have been to sustain serious injury.

A4
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