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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

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Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol

Old 26th Feb 2009, 08:48
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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All sucumbed at the cockpit because the requirements to fix our seats are not the same for passenger`s.

And this is clear visible. Just pay attention how Airbus seats are fixed and you will come to a fast conclusion.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 08:59
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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the aircraft appears to have been in a stalled mode with tail down and nose up at first impact or to put it another way insufficient air speed close to the ground coupled to insufficient height to recover before hitting the ground.

One thing does surprise me. Why did the flight deck all succumb when they would have had full harness and more warning of the pending accident than anybody else? The cockpit area seems relatively undamaged.
You have answered your own question (also discussed at length in a previous post).

If, as seems to be the case, the aircraft hit the ground in a nose-high attitude with a relatively low forward speed, then it's simple geometry.

For everyone on board to have been subjected to the same impact forces (in this case vertical deceleration) then it would have been necessary for the fuselage to progressively collapse while maintaining the same nose-high attitude (think of a collapsing chimney). If, on the other hand the fuselage remains rigid and (relatively) intact, then it's more analogous to, say, a golf club or cricket bat striking the ground where one end hits first and the other end then accelerates in an arc to strike the ground with a higher velocity and consequent higher impact force.

So, all other things being equal, the nearer you are to the front of the aircraft, the more likely you are to be subject to an unsurvivable impact force, harness notwithstanding.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:03
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It would be a terrible decision to make within a fraction of a second if you had to decide whether to impact a road/trees or take the risk of stalling while trying to 'lift' over.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:05
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G forces

When we did our ditching training in the SVC10, we were afterwards shown a film of a 10 foot SVC10 model, specially built to simulate a ditching. Every time it was catapulted into the tank, the model`s nose area underwent violent pitching. The boffins calculated that those G forces would have killed the cockpit crew in the event of a real ditching. The injury would have been the tearing of the arteries from the heart. So Turkish hitting tail first, then violently pitching down, then the sudden stop, may well have done just that.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:14
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Anyone else deeply disturbed by the picture of the crew still strapped into their seats.

It just brings the whole reality of the situation to the heart seeing people (in a very small aviation community) sitting lifeless in their place of work.......
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:18
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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The top of the cockpit looks OK, but the bottom half... I once had a look at a F50 that went off the runway, not much damage, but the cockpit floor almost cut the pilots legs off. It came up and nearly trapped them between the floor end the lower part of the instrument panel.

How did the rescue services get access to the cockpit? If they got in from the cabin, then fine. If not, I don't see any access at all? The F/O window is not open (could be jammed).

And what the XXXX caused that damage to the cockpit roof? The nose gear is further back, so I don't think the strut could have done that. There must have been some massive forces acting at the pointy end when they hit the ground.

Photos: Boeing 737-8F2 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

The area looks pretty ideal for a crash landing. A normal touch down on speed would have gone a long way to save all on board.

Did they crash because they lost control, or did they do a less than ideal crash landing?
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:32
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One thing does surprise me. Why did the flight deck all succumb when they would have had full harness and more warning of the pending accident than anybody else? The cockpit area seems relatively undamaged.
Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf reports that the three pilots were crushed when the instrument panel behind them entered the cockpit. A local paper for North-Holland Province quotes the chairman of the Dutch Safety Board, who appeared in a news programme on TV yesterday, as saying: "When the aircraft hit the field, the instrument panel behind the pilots was pushed forward, crushing the crew".
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:33
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Cockpit roof damage

ManaAdaSystem - in response to your "what the XXXX", I saw some footage on TV last night of a rescue worker attacking that section of the cockpit roof with an axe. Presumably attempting to open up an alternative access to get the crew remains out.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:38
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Split-second decisions

It would be a terrible decision to make within a fraction of a second if you had to decide whether to impact a road/trees or take the risk of stalling while trying to 'lift' over.
I've done this a few times while flying a hang glider (never yet in a helicopter, thankfully). Adrenaline is pumping and the decision is automatic. You can feel how much energy you've got and you know if you're going to clear the obstacle.

One time I didn't have that energy and flew into a tree - I instinctively 'let go' and was completely uninjured. Wrote off a hang glider, though.

Of course, this crash is a life-or-death situation and my little accidents weren't - I'm only writing about the decision-making process.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 09:43
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Falling Broomsticks

DavidReidUK Wrote
For everyone on board to have been subjected to the same impact forces (in this case vertical deceleration) then it would have been necessary for the fuselage to progressively collapse while maintaining the same nose-high attitude (think of a collapsing chimney). If, on the other hand the fuselage remains rigid and (relatively) intact, then it's more analogous to, say, a golf club or cricket bat striking the ground where one end hits first and the other end then accelerates in an arc to strike the ground with a higher velocity and consequent higher impact force
In fact, a rigid object such as a broomstick or an aircraft falling from a vertical attitude accelerates under gravity at 0 m/s at the base, 9.8m/s/s at the middle '1G' and 2x9.8 m/s/s at the tip '2G'

The length of the 737-800 is 35m, so the time for a simple topple from purely vertical to purely horizontal is 1.87 seconds. If aerodynamics are involved this will obviously increase. Contrary-wise, friction with the ground from the horizontal component of velocity will induce a turning moment to increase the rotation speed in the early stages of impact.

Making up some numbers, say the aircraft had a vertical component of fall of 30 m/s at impact and the impact occurred over 2 seconds, then the mid section would have hit at 30 + 1 * 9.8 = 40 m/s, while the front would have hit at 30 + 2 * 9.8 = 50 m/s.

So in this case, limited by made-up but in the ballpark numbers, the front hit 60% as fast (50 m/s) as the tail (30m/s) and with 2.7 times the energy to dissipate.

Actual FDR data will be different, but I would guess roughly similar values.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:18
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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If as news channels said last night one of the problems was actually gaining entrance to the cockpit area because of the post 9/11 security measures (hence the fireman trying to hack his way in through the roof), how do they know the pilots died on impact. The thought of being VSI on the wrong side of an armoured door jammed thanks to fuselage distortion is not pleasant.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:25
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Secure cockpit entry after a crash was just one of a number of problems raised when the locked door regime came in. There are other problems with the system too, unrelated to this sort of accident, but no system can cover all circumstances to both prevent unauthorised access and give access in an emergency if the pass system is down or the door is jammed.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:25
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I think with that level of (possibly unsurvivable ) vertical deceleration there is every chance the overhead panel would detach, it is fairly easy to do so for maintenance purposes. In spite of not being so tall I have taken chunks out of my head more times than I can justify just taking my seat. If you compare the cockpit environment with say a modern car it is very unfriendly to a human body in a crash situation. Full of sharp preturbances, and , as I found out to my cost once in a car accident when I head-butted the windscreen, given serious deceleration , seat belts do stretch. Ask Mika Hakkinen.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:27
  #334 (permalink)  
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There are other reports saying that the nose gear came up through the cockpit floor, which also seems plausible given the speculated high vertical descent rate.

Edited for spillung
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:28
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More speculations (waiting for the flames...)

It has been suggested that the aircraft ran out of fuel or at least neither engine was running - a cyclist nearby reported that the aircraft was very quiet on approach.

I don't buy the low fuel scenario - I'm not a 737 pilot but I am sure that they have low fuel warnings, the crew would have been aware of their fuel levels and would have called at least for priority or emergency before hand...yes?

If neither engine was running (speculation..do we know this for sure yet?) then could it be fuel starvation similar to or like the BA 777 incident. I guess icing is not an issue so what I mean is that both engines shut down late on approach.

What about avionics failure or FADEC failure in these conditions - how does the 737-800 behave under the scenarios (however unlikely?)

Was the aircraft properly configured for approach and landing?


Sorry if some of these have been answered it is getting difficult to wade through this thread a bit...

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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:39
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Anyone else deeply disturbed by the picture of the crew still strapped into their seats.

It just brings the whole reality of the situation to the heart seeing people (in a very small aviation community) sitting lifeless in their place of work.......
Nick,

Yes, deeply and bonechillingly disturbed to be honest. Your not the only one.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:43
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There But For The Grace Of God Go I

Potential double engine flame out?
Potential wing buffeting before impact?
Potential nose high attitude?

The crash scenes of the Turkish B737 could so easily have been the outcome of the BA38 (B777 LHR)….. As the capt from that BA flight; There But For The Grace Of God Go I.

I have my own speculation on this tragic accident; but I am choosing to keep it to myself. I have been a victim of unfair rumour and speculation over the last year; and so for the respect of the crew, their families and colleagues, please be more considerate about the rumours and speculations you are posting. My wife and I have seen many unfair comments on this site about my incident; and would not want any of the Turkish crews’ families to have to read unfair comments regarding their loved ones. During their time of grief and uncertainty, why add to their stress? Whether they want to or not they will end up hearing some of the comments from this site.

If it brings any comfort (to the crews families or other pilots out there), in my incident, at one stage, even though I thought it would be catastrophic, I was not concerned for my life, but only concerned for my passengers and crew. I was consumed with the task in hand and therefore had no fear for my own life. I am sure other professional pilots will react in the same way and for this reason I am sure that the Turkish crew would not have felt fear for their own deaths; as they were endeavouring to save as many lives as possible and would have remained professional to the end.



I hope that all the families of the crew and passengers are looked after with care and respect in the following months and years.

RIP
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 10:59
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Originally Posted by gordonroxburgh
AOA - Ignore any discussion about this until the facts are known from the FDR.

The untrained eye witnesses don't understand the different landing attitudes of different aircraft, so will always say "hey he was very nose up" or words to that effect.

the BA777 incident proved this, witnesses said he had a high AOA, but the reality was that the crew lowered the nose to try to get the airspeed back.
From the interim report in the 777 case it would appear that the witness reports were correct until about 150 AGL (AoA increasing while A/P tries to hold GS and looses speed) and then PF responds at stick shaker by getting nose down and probably saving many lives through excellent flying.
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 11:12
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The Crew & Roof Panel

At times, when sitting in the 737 cockpit I wonder just how heavy that roof panel might be. How it may dislodge with fatal consequences if there was a mishap. (Even if there wasn't - but that's just me becoming older!!!)
It would at best slice half of your head off, both of you.
With a possible magnitude of vertical deceleration people are mentioning above, I wonder whether it was found in it's original position?

AP
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Old 26th Feb 2009, 11:26
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Mmmayday38 - perhaps the finest, and most apposite, of perhaps fewer than three-dozen posts so far in this thread which have told us anything of value. If every one of the posts presenting either irrelevant, baseless BS - or merely abusing the media (or one another) - or proposing unworkable editorial strictures upon PPrune - were removed, this thread (and many like it) would surely benefit.
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