Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
Cunning Artificer
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I've been going through airport security every day near enough for the last two years, and can honestly say i've never found anything so unreasonable that it would constitute a risk to flight safety.
What does infuriate me is the mindless bureaucracy behind the whole thing. I worked airside continuously from 1966 to July this year, including working with armed nuclear bombers, and have held airside security badges issued by the authorities at airports in Brunei, Malaysia, Nepal, Vietnam, Hong Kong and Belgium. Upon return to UK I cannot obtain airside security clearance for any British airport because I am a British Citizen who cannot satisfy the Disclosure Scotland rules - I haven't resided anywhere in the UK for at least five years, so they can't do a criminal records check on me. Were it necessary for me to hold airside clearance for my job I simply could not be hired.
On the other hand, were I to be from, say, Somalia, Yemen or perhaps Afghanistan, there would be no problem. Non-Brits without the necessary residential qualifications don't have to have to undergo the Disclosure Scotland process.
So what's the bloody point of it all then?
...and incidentally, how many terrorists have (prior) criminal records?
Blacksheep
Either I'm misunderstanding your point or IMHO you've been misinformed - you certainly can get airside clearance as a UK citizen who has resided outside the UK for over 5 years...
Indeed there are a fair number of non-UK national, non-UK resident workers wondering around UK aitports with legit and valid airside passes.
Indeed there are a fair number of non-UK national, non-UK resident workers wondering around UK aitports with legit and valid airside passes.
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Reason for security checks on pilots
One of the main reasons why pilots are checked, even though they have the safety of the aircraft in their hands, is the possibility of a bogus pilot with a uniform and fake ID getting through the net. I dont think anyone should be excluded, not even VIP's, Government Ministers, Celebrities etc. If one section of society is exempt, then they become the weakest link and open to exploitation. Submit to being searched with a smile on your face and keep your thoughts for the bar.
Cessna172PPL
The simple fix is available, proper ID (biometric.) Bottom line is "the system" loves it, the way it is.
Petty power struggle.
My personal two favorite, at security, post 9-11:
1.
John: "What exactly are you looking for, maybe I can help."
Security Puke: "I can't tell you, but Anything that will allow you to TAKE OVER THE AIRPLANE"
John: I am the Captain, you moron, I am in control of the Aircraft!
2.
John: Obviously angry and miserable, going through security.
Security Puke: "You don't look happy, but, we have to keep Pilots from flying Airplanes into buildings."
John: They weren't Pilots, you idiot, they were terrorists!
One of the main reasons why pilots are checked, even though they have the safety of the aircraft in their hands, is the possibility of a bogus pilot with a uniform and fake ID getting through the net. I dont think anyone should be excluded, not even VIP's, Government Ministers, Celebrities etc. If one section of society is exempt, then they become the weakest link and open to exploitation. Submit to being searched with a smile on your face and keep your thoughts for the bar.
Cessna172PPL
The simple fix is available, proper ID (biometric.) Bottom line is "the system" loves it, the way it is.
Petty power struggle.
My personal two favorite, at security, post 9-11:
1.
John: "What exactly are you looking for, maybe I can help."
Security Puke: "I can't tell you, but Anything that will allow you to TAKE OVER THE AIRPLANE"
John: I am the Captain, you moron, I am in control of the Aircraft!
2.
John: Obviously angry and miserable, going through security.
Security Puke: "You don't look happy, but, we have to keep Pilots from flying Airplanes into buildings."
John: They weren't Pilots, you idiot, they were terrorists!
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Johnny767,
I donīt think that any terrorist will fake being a pilot just in order to smuggle some youghurt or a penn knife, Therefore I see no reason to search pilots for water bottles and nail clippers. I think it would be sufficient to screen pilots for guns and bombs and I think that the vast majority of pilots would accept that level och screening, donīt you?
Most here donīt advocate that pilots shouldnīt be screened at all, they just want it to be at a more logical level.
I donīt think that any terrorist will fake being a pilot just in order to smuggle some youghurt or a penn knife, Therefore I see no reason to search pilots for water bottles and nail clippers. I think it would be sufficient to screen pilots for guns and bombs and I think that the vast majority of pilots would accept that level och screening, donīt you?
Most here donīt advocate that pilots shouldnīt be screened at all, they just want it to be at a more logical level.
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Blacksheep
Wiggy is right. Just because you have worked outside the UK it does not mean that you cannot satisfy the regulations. One of the biggest contributors in these forums to the frustrations that come spewing out as often as they do is people passing opinion with out actually checking the facts first. Blacksheep has had a wee rant without establishing the facts. So, go find out what the regs are then come back and apologise for misleading the thread! While I am at it, although I do not doubt Blacksheeps honesty, can you see the headlines if an incident occurred as a result of a pass office accepting someones word that they have been gainfully employed out the country for 5 years.... "yes your honour, he said he was good for the previous 5 years so I issued him with his airside pass".... "ah well thats all ok then!!!!!!"
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Right, a question to all of you.
What will happen if you refuse a search after the red lights started to flash and the bell started to ring? Some years ago, as a pax. I did it in AMS, the boarding was halted and Police was called. One of you doing it will have no effect, all of you doing it will make a differance.
What will happen if you refuse a search after the red lights started to flash and the bell started to ring? Some years ago, as a pax. I did it in AMS, the boarding was halted and Police was called. One of you doing it will have no effect, all of you doing it will make a differance.
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I think it would be sufficient to screen pilots for guns and bombs
The US Pilots can carry guns, so your point is? As for the rest of the globe, what am I going to do with a gun?
Point it at myself and take control of the Aircraft?
The US Pilots can carry guns, so your point is? As for the rest of the globe, what am I going to do with a gun?
Point it at myself and take control of the Aircraft?
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My point was that if a terrorist is going to impersonate a pilot with fake ID etc, (or pressure a real pilot into smuggling something for him), he will not do it in order to smuggle a pennknife. But, he might do it to smuggle a gun or a bomb airside. Therefore, as I said, I think itīs sufficient to screen us pilots for bombs and guns, not nailclippers. That way security will also stop the possibility of pressuring real pilots into smuggling things that they have to hand over to terrorists airside (or else, their wife and kids will be killed).
US pilots who carry guns must surely have some kind of license for that so it will not be any more of a problem than it is today.
I know that I donīt need a gun to do harm with my aircraft, but the only argument for screening pilots that I find understandable is that pilots can be pressured into smuggling things airside. Terrorists can take a pilots family hostage and coerce the pilot into smuggling something through security and handing it over to another terrorist who is waiting inside the security zone.
If pilots werenīt screened at all, they would become a loophole that terrorists could use. Todays solution to that problem is the ridicilous screening that we now have to live with every day at work. What Iīm suggesting is a more sensible solution that would make life much easier for us pilots, without creating a loophole for the terrorists. Wouldnīt that be nice enough, Johnny767?
Unfortunately, I think that we will have to accept some level of screening of pilots even if we have total control of the aircraft.
US pilots who carry guns must surely have some kind of license for that so it will not be any more of a problem than it is today.
I know that I donīt need a gun to do harm with my aircraft, but the only argument for screening pilots that I find understandable is that pilots can be pressured into smuggling things airside. Terrorists can take a pilots family hostage and coerce the pilot into smuggling something through security and handing it over to another terrorist who is waiting inside the security zone.
If pilots werenīt screened at all, they would become a loophole that terrorists could use. Todays solution to that problem is the ridicilous screening that we now have to live with every day at work. What Iīm suggesting is a more sensible solution that would make life much easier for us pilots, without creating a loophole for the terrorists. Wouldnīt that be nice enough, Johnny767?
Unfortunately, I think that we will have to accept some level of screening of pilots even if we have total control of the aircraft.
Last edited by Ladusvala; 25th Sep 2008 at 20:48.
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Refuse a search
All searches at UK Airports are by consent, you have the right to refuse a search of yourself or your bags. Equally airport security have the right to refuse you admission airside for doing so.
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[QUOTE][ Terrorists can take a pilots family hostage and coerce the pilot into smuggling something through security and handing it over to another terrorist who is waiting inside the security zone./QUOTE]
Whilst I hesitate to cross swords with the more knowledgeable posters on this thread, I really can't let the above ridiculous statement go unchallenged.
The nature of the job dictates that Flightdeck crew are of above -average intelligence, reasoning power and intellect.
You REALLY think that in the above "hostage" scenario, ANY pilot would smuggle the means to destroy @300 souls and TRUST that the ruthless fanatics would release the odd few hostages unharmed.?
make the contact airside, poke your fingers in his eyes, stamp his nuts to beaver's tails....whatever it takes...AFTER you've notified the authorities.
I'm sure that even that bunch of incompetents has some sort of "plan" in place for such an eventuality.
Whilst I hesitate to cross swords with the more knowledgeable posters on this thread, I really can't let the above ridiculous statement go unchallenged.
The nature of the job dictates that Flightdeck crew are of above -average intelligence, reasoning power and intellect.
You REALLY think that in the above "hostage" scenario, ANY pilot would smuggle the means to destroy @300 souls and TRUST that the ruthless fanatics would release the odd few hostages unharmed.?
make the contact airside, poke your fingers in his eyes, stamp his nuts to beaver's tails....whatever it takes...AFTER you've notified the authorities.I'm sure that even that bunch of incompetents has some sort of "plan" in place for such an eventuality.
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Originally Posted by cockney steve
I'm sure that even that bunch of incompetents has some sort of "plan" in place for such an eventuality.
One of the best posts I have read in all the years I have been on this forum (even though I don't contribute very much).Dave
Last edited by thadocta; 26th Sep 2008 at 15:40. Reason: problem with smilies!
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Cockney Steve, that is the only argument (terrorists coercing pilots or impersonating pilots) that i canīt defeat in a discussion with those who want pilots to be screened.
Pressuring pilots might be a ridicilous statement but I think that impersonating pilots is a more likely scenario, What do you think?
Pressuring pilots might be a ridicilous statement but I think that impersonating pilots is a more likely scenario, What do you think?
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Hi, impersonating a pilot doesn't seem as smart plan, suppose you even manage to bring on board some kind of weapon, the same is possible to do anyway, but without calling much attention as uniformed pilot crew seating as passengers surely does.
Really beside movie-like plots I don't see what would be the advantage even you manage to bring a weapon
For the 67th time, all what is asked by most people here, is just to quit bothering flight crew, namely pilots. They are among the most trusted individual in the society and should be allowed to board with all the stuff that an human person may need or like when piloting for a work. Plenty of homemade food and protein drinks ? Sure. A leatherman in case they need to fix any gizmo or hotel door ? Yes. A beauty case full of all metalling thingies and creams to take proper care of your boy? Allowed.
And then if you want my most honest opinion, the same should be applied to passengers too.
Of course pilots would need to go under scanners and detectors just like pax, security would then have the possibility of giving a second look at any person or baggage, randomly or by any criteria.
Is this too much to ask ?
Really beside movie-like plots I don't see what would be the advantage even you manage to bring a weapon
For the 67th time, all what is asked by most people here, is just to quit bothering flight crew, namely pilots. They are among the most trusted individual in the society and should be allowed to board with all the stuff that an human person may need or like when piloting for a work. Plenty of homemade food and protein drinks ? Sure. A leatherman in case they need to fix any gizmo or hotel door ? Yes. A beauty case full of all metalling thingies and creams to take proper care of your boy? Allowed.
And then if you want my most honest opinion, the same should be applied to passengers too.
Of course pilots would need to go under scanners and detectors just like pax, security would then have the possibility of giving a second look at any person or baggage, randomly or by any criteria.
Is this too much to ask ?
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Come on guys get out more and let all this rest. Its like a stuck record. It is what it is. Its only a safety issue if the crew involved are easily aroused anyway.
Stop pontificating with what ifs and harumphing about this and that. Put your Sh1t on the tray say hello and **** off to work.
Stop pontificating with what ifs and harumphing about this and that. Put your Sh1t on the tray say hello and **** off to work.
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All searches at UK Airports are by consent, you have the right to refuse a search of yourself or your bags. Equally airport security have the right to refuse you admission airside for doing so.
Than refuse and see what will happen. If only one will that person will find him/herself out of work, if all will they will have to do something about it as aircraft can not fly without a pilot. They can ruke you and me as long as we co-operate, once we stop they have a problem.
Than refuse and see what will happen. If only one will that person will find him/herself out of work, if all will they will have to do something about it as aircraft can not fly without a pilot. They can ruke you and me as long as we co-operate, once we stop they have a problem.
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A few weeks ago I went through Manchester as a passenger. I had a plastic splint on my arm. I offloaded everything, shoes and belt included, and still the arch 'pinged' me. Very polite security staff, very effecient, went over me with hands and wand. I volunteered to take the splint off, no problems, all very quick. The only metal on me was press studs on the trouser pockets - not even a metal zip.
coming back, a week later, went through security at my departure airport, no 'pings', no problems. only when airside realized that I had a huge handful of change I had forgotten about still in my pocket.
Point is, given the planning that the baddies seem willing to put into their efforts, it would be very simple to test the screening at different airports and choose the one that lets you get stuff through.
coming back, a week later, went through security at my departure airport, no 'pings', no problems. only when airside realized that I had a huge handful of change I had forgotten about still in my pocket.
Point is, given the planning that the baddies seem willing to put into their efforts, it would be very simple to test the screening at different airports and choose the one that lets you get stuff through.
.............choose the one that lets you get stuff through.