Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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ExSp33db1rd
I believe Duck Rogers invited Paarmo to take a little R&R away from this thread for a while, and doesn't life now seem glorious?
Briefly re-capping, all pleas to government, airport authorities and "security" providers fall on deaf ears. Why, because there is a fortune to be made for "security" companies, an illusion of the provision of safety for government (please god let this give Gordon at least ONE extra vote (Paarmo's vote perhaps), one vote, just one, it's all we ask), and i am quite sure that airport authorities have some stake or financial interest in what is going on (lest they would not let their buildings turn into the proverbial circus).
While most SLF will accept the problems associated with this farce, we as crew are being subjugated by default of our position as a captive, highly visible market (please give us Paarmo's vote).
If we as crew would only do something that would impinge negatively on votes, we would see a change and pronto. The only way to do this is by use of the (usually inept) media who we normally loath and detest, and the only way to do that is by causing a major inconvenience. I know this thread has produced some interesting ways that this could be done (surrendering the crash axe to "security" and grounding the AC, putting 99ml of urine in hand baggage and insisting they test it etc etc), the list of extreeme solutions is almost endless. What we need as operating crew is an action that we can all undertake, in unison, which is legal, prescribed as permissible and would cause major disruption. I am open to any suggestions, surely there must be something?
RIX
sidenote - Mrs RIX came back through STN as SLF a couple of days ago. Thorough handbag search which included an ornamental bird (she had forgotten to put into the checked in). Legs of said bird something like needles except about 5" long - no problem there - problem was one bottle of perfume she had forgotten to put into the clear plastic bag
Total 
ing IDIOTS
Briefly re-capping, all pleas to government, airport authorities and "security" providers fall on deaf ears. Why, because there is a fortune to be made for "security" companies, an illusion of the provision of safety for government (please god let this give Gordon at least ONE extra vote (Paarmo's vote perhaps), one vote, just one, it's all we ask), and i am quite sure that airport authorities have some stake or financial interest in what is going on (lest they would not let their buildings turn into the proverbial circus).
While most SLF will accept the problems associated with this farce, we as crew are being subjugated by default of our position as a captive, highly visible market (please give us Paarmo's vote).
If we as crew would only do something that would impinge negatively on votes, we would see a change and pronto. The only way to do this is by use of the (usually inept) media who we normally loath and detest, and the only way to do that is by causing a major inconvenience. I know this thread has produced some interesting ways that this could be done (surrendering the crash axe to "security" and grounding the AC, putting 99ml of urine in hand baggage and insisting they test it etc etc), the list of extreeme solutions is almost endless. What we need as operating crew is an action that we can all undertake, in unison, which is legal, prescribed as permissible and would cause major disruption. I am open to any suggestions, surely there must be something?
RIX
sidenote - Mrs RIX came back through STN as SLF a couple of days ago. Thorough handbag search which included an ornamental bird (she had forgotten to put into the checked in). Legs of said bird something like needles except about 5" long - no problem there - problem was one bottle of perfume she had forgotten to put into the clear plastic bag
Total ing IDIOTS
Last edited by Romeo India Xray; 27th Sep 2008 at 10:10. Reason: Reading Riting and Rithmetic
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This makes interesting reading
So many security incidents? Where where all those security bods?
BBC NEWS | UK | Airports reveal security breaches
BBC NEWS | UK | Airports reveal security breaches
"Aviation expert David Learmount"
O...
K...
As in: "financial expert, Alistair Darling".
O...
K...
As in: "financial expert, Alistair Darling".
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I'm still here but very busy at the moment
Duck Rogers may have asked me to go but I have not complied.
You were given a seven day thread ban which has now expired. A more permanent arrangement is always an option.
Duck
You are still missing the point of this post.Some of the stewards and stewardesses ( I think this may be a vey old fashioned and unPC way of describing some of the posters ) have only time wise as much or as little formal training and vetting as some of the people you are complaining about who are enforcing the rules with varying degrees of sucess. Please face reality. Would you allow some of the security staff through the screening points without checking them ?. No I thought not.
You were given a seven day thread ban which has now expired. A more permanent arrangement is always an option.
Duck
You are still missing the point of this post.Some of the stewards and stewardesses ( I think this may be a vey old fashioned and unPC way of describing some of the posters ) have only time wise as much or as little formal training and vetting as some of the people you are complaining about who are enforcing the rules with varying degrees of sucess. Please face reality. Would you allow some of the security staff through the screening points without checking them ?. No I thought not.
Paarmo
Paarmo, I have to tell you that LHR did on at least one occasion last year. Friday 2nd November, Domestic security, around 0745.
A group of six workmen carrying tools only two of whom were wearing visible passes were waved through without x-ray of the toolboxes, (2 gallon) paint cans or (gallon) white spirit containers they were carrying, despite several knives being clearly visible in the toolboxes, no questions were asked as to where they were going, or paperwork showing they were authorised to head airside.
Likewise a group of three security staff [1M, 2F] were waved through. Both groups came through a side entrance, skipping most of the queues which were backing up to the boarding pass check. Both groups passed through the arches and naturally set them off, but were not searched.
Having already been threatened with either being denied passage airside or arrest for attempting to reason with the security staff at boarding pass check. I did not complain about this at the time, but reported it when I arrived at EDI. The response I got was that LHR security tends to make its own rules for staff screening and that passing staff through whilst passengers waited might just be an attempt to reduce the queue.
All that most contributors on this thread are asking for is consistency in the application of common security screening, tempered by the significant application of common sense in the generation (and application) of said rules.
For what it's worth, what nearly got me arrested was [after checking & being assured at the check-in desk that it was OK] pointing out that there was less likelihood of me having been able to tamper with the contents of my sealed duty free bag, complete with visible receipt from the KUL duty free shop than the guy in front of me who had exactly the same thing except that he had flown in from FRA the night before & overnighted at a nearby hotel whereas I had arrived less than 90 minutes earlier via AUH. However, the jobsworth checking boarding passes & duty free was holding tight to the line that it's OK for transfer passengers to check in carrying a sealed duty free bag if they've come from inside the EU, but not from outside.
Would you allow some of the security staff through the screening points without checking them ?. No I thought not.
A group of six workmen carrying tools only two of whom were wearing visible passes were waved through without x-ray of the toolboxes, (2 gallon) paint cans or (gallon) white spirit containers they were carrying, despite several knives being clearly visible in the toolboxes, no questions were asked as to where they were going, or paperwork showing they were authorised to head airside.
Likewise a group of three security staff [1M, 2F] were waved through. Both groups came through a side entrance, skipping most of the queues which were backing up to the boarding pass check. Both groups passed through the arches and naturally set them off, but were not searched.
Having already been threatened with either being denied passage airside or arrest for attempting to reason with the security staff at boarding pass check. I did not complain about this at the time, but reported it when I arrived at EDI. The response I got was that LHR security tends to make its own rules for staff screening and that passing staff through whilst passengers waited might just be an attempt to reduce the queue.
All that most contributors on this thread are asking for is consistency in the application of common security screening, tempered by the significant application of common sense in the generation (and application) of said rules.
For what it's worth, what nearly got me arrested was [after checking & being assured at the check-in desk that it was OK] pointing out that there was less likelihood of me having been able to tamper with the contents of my sealed duty free bag, complete with visible receipt from the KUL duty free shop than the guy in front of me who had exactly the same thing except that he had flown in from FRA the night before & overnighted at a nearby hotel whereas I had arrived less than 90 minutes earlier via AUH. However, the jobsworth checking boarding passes & duty free was holding tight to the line that it's OK for transfer passengers to check in carrying a sealed duty free bag if they've come from inside the EU, but not from outside.
We all ( at least those with any sort of intelligence ) know that the bad guys will do exactly what they want to do, where and when they want do do it,and are just laughing at us as they bide their time. The whole thing is a monstrous insult to our intelligence, and a TOTAL waste of time. Are you LISTENING Paarmo ??
PRECISELY !!! so why the f**k are we bothering with all this crap ? Just how did this lot get past the security that give crews such an unnecessary hard time ? Obviously ...... they weren't daft enough to get caught with nail clippers and 120 ml of aftershave in a plastic bag !!
.................Sheer lunacy.Reported by AVWeb today ........
AIRPORT SECURITY ABROAD ALLOWS IMPERSONATOR IN COCKPIT
An Egyptian expatriate entered the cockpit of an aircraft at Kuwait International Airport by impersonating a Brazilian pilot, "failed to operate the plane," and moved on to impersonate a Brazilian engineer using the identity card he found in the first aircraft's cockpit, according to Arab Times Online. However the suspect's second attempt was thwarted by an employee, who, when asked by the suspect about the location of an aircraft bound for Luxor, noticed that the man bore no resemblance to the ID card he carried. The employee called security, who promptly arrested the suspect. Authorities are now investigating how the suspect managed to slip past a "high security" area to reach the first aircraft's hangar. The case has won personal attention from Kuwait's Minister of Interior and strict measures are expected against employees who "are found to have been negligent in their duty." More...
and
GERMAN POLICE RAID KLM FLIGHT, ARREST TERROR SUSPECTS
Two suspected terrorists on a KLM flight out of Cologne, Germany, allegedly intent on waging jihad, were pulled from their flight before it departed for Amsterdam, Friday. .....................
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 29th Sep 2008 at 10:10.
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Paarmo, you only mention stewards and stewardesses, does that mean that you think pilots could be treated to a more sensible security screening?
Most pilots here just want to get rid of the ridicilous security rules that don´t allow them to bring nail clippers or 120 ml after shave, they don´t advocate completely open doors for crew. Don´t you understand that or don´t you want to understand?
Most pilots here just want to get rid of the ridicilous security rules that don´t allow them to bring nail clippers or 120 ml after shave, they don´t advocate completely open doors for crew. Don´t you understand that or don´t you want to understand?
cwatters
No it won't.
I was able to prove my identity securely some 40 yrs ago, way before 9/11, so the ability was there if anyone chose to implement it. Trouble is, the standard of the security checking process is not conducive to positive control. However good security staff might be ( is that an oxymoron ! ) they get bored and take the easiest, simplest, way out to complete their shift and go home, knicking nail clippers and measuring aftershave is easier than proper security.
One of my colleagues made a mock I.D. card with a picture of his dog, it was months before a smarter than the average security guard noticed ! No adverse results in those days, just a bit of humour, but it was an early objection to 'the system' as it was being applied ( not the rationale behind it ). Checking the crew bus the security guard would just stand at the front and make sure some 16 or so cards were swinging from uniforms, never bothering to check any one of them, hence Rover made many trips airside ! To their credit, the occasional guard would ask the Captain " are these all your crew " ? which really was all that was necessary.
Recently, staff at XXX ( a U.S.A. location ) realised that nobody had ever checked staff from the staff car park on a bus that then went Airside, ever since 9/11, staff on holiday, not in uniform even, parked their car and were taking their suitcases with them airside first, before entering the terminal to proceed to the counters. ( my source is the Press, but I was there at the time and it caused some embarrassment however the facts might have been manipulated. )
The record is getting stuck in the groove - the whole thing is a farce, lunatics running the asylum.
Obviously when pilots can prove their identity securely then all this nonsense will stop [IMG]
I was able to prove my identity securely some 40 yrs ago, way before 9/11, so the ability was there if anyone chose to implement it. Trouble is, the standard of the security checking process is not conducive to positive control. However good security staff might be ( is that an oxymoron ! ) they get bored and take the easiest, simplest, way out to complete their shift and go home, knicking nail clippers and measuring aftershave is easier than proper security.
One of my colleagues made a mock I.D. card with a picture of his dog, it was months before a smarter than the average security guard noticed ! No adverse results in those days, just a bit of humour, but it was an early objection to 'the system' as it was being applied ( not the rationale behind it ). Checking the crew bus the security guard would just stand at the front and make sure some 16 or so cards were swinging from uniforms, never bothering to check any one of them, hence Rover made many trips airside ! To their credit, the occasional guard would ask the Captain " are these all your crew " ? which really was all that was necessary.
Recently, staff at XXX ( a U.S.A. location ) realised that nobody had ever checked staff from the staff car park on a bus that then went Airside, ever since 9/11, staff on holiday, not in uniform even, parked their car and were taking their suitcases with them airside first, before entering the terminal to proceed to the counters. ( my source is the Press, but I was there at the time and it caused some embarrassment however the facts might have been manipulated. )
The record is getting stuck in the groove - the whole thing is a farce, lunatics running the asylum.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 29th Sep 2008 at 21:56.
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Don't tell me tell it to someone who matters
The rules are simple and well advertised to all airside personell. If you see a breach of security then report it through the correct channels at your particular airport.
Don't come on here crowing about how clever you were to see this breach. Do something about it.
Don't try and bully me Duck. If you don't like debate.......the promoting and testing various viewpoints around a contentious subject...then close the site down to all but card carrying flightdeck crew.
This is what has happened to the Labour Party and before it to the Conservative Party. No one dares to have an opinion which does not strictly follow the Party line.
I really think some of you should come into the real world and see how it is rather than whine about taking your shoes off as you pass through a security check point. Think of it as going to the Mosque and grin and bear it.
Don't come on here crowing about how clever you were to see this breach. Do something about it.
Don't try and bully me Duck. If you don't like debate.......the promoting and testing various viewpoints around a contentious subject...then close the site down to all but card carrying flightdeck crew.
This is what has happened to the Labour Party and before it to the Conservative Party. No one dares to have an opinion which does not strictly follow the Party line.
I really think some of you should come into the real world and see how it is rather than whine about taking your shoes off as you pass through a security check point. Think of it as going to the Mosque and grin and bear it.
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paarmo's Persecution Complex
paarmo
As a mere observer of your antics in here I seem to recall that your recent disappearance came immediately after you inferred that another member required the smell of gin on her breath to attract a man so there's no room for you on the high ground if you're going to pick a fight with the mods. Not once have I seen them take issue with your 'on topic' comments.
If you're losing an argument and resort to personal insults you deserve all you get.
As a mere observer of your antics in here I seem to recall that your recent disappearance came immediately after you inferred that another member required the smell of gin on her breath to attract a man so there's no room for you on the high ground if you're going to pick a fight with the mods. Not once have I seen them take issue with your 'on topic' comments.
If you're losing an argument and resort to personal insults you deserve all you get.
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Doubtful Security Guard
I couldn't believe my eyes this morning - I passed through the LGW Concorde House Crew Security point and came face to face with one of the so called BAA Male Security Persons complete with Full Mohican hair-do and of course the obligatory ear-ring.
ie. Head shaved all over apart from a central tuft of hair from front to back. He looked somewhat like a punk-rocker..
A most incongruous sight as he searched a Captain that triggered the arch..
My god, what a state of affairs - You couldn't make it up!
ie. Head shaved all over apart from a central tuft of hair from front to back. He looked somewhat like a punk-rocker..
A most incongruous sight as he searched a Captain that triggered the arch..
My god, what a state of affairs - You couldn't make it up!
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debate.......the promoting and testing various viewpoints
Think of it as going to the Mosque and grin and bear it.
Eid Mubarak
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I couldn't believe my eyes this morning - I passed through the LGW Concorde House Crew Security point and came face to face with one of the so called BAA Male Security Persons complete with Full Mohican hair-do and of course the obligatory ear-ring.
ie. Head shaved all over apart from a central tuft of hair from front to back. He looked somewhat like a punk-rocker..
A most incongruous sight as he searched a Captain that triggered the arch..
My god, what a state of affairs - You couldn't make it up!
ie. Head shaved all over apart from a central tuft of hair from front to back. He looked somewhat like a punk-rocker..
A most incongruous sight as he searched a Captain that triggered the arch..
My god, what a state of affairs - You couldn't make it up!
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an interesting one...
I do a lot of flying over water in those things with the wing that flings (most on this site believe them an affront against god I know).
To get to the start I use commercial airlines and in the hand carry I have my survival vest complete with co2 inflation cylander and pockets stuffed with Epirbs, hand held vhf in a bag etc etc. Nothing plain dumb like flares or a knife, but I am still amazed that I have never once been stopped for a search.
I have been stopped for a search over slightly too large tubes of toothpaste etc, but never the vest..
I have always expected to have to ddeal with the compressed gas cylander on the banned list v but this thing is certified for flight to flight levels by every agency known to man argument but, nada...
May be the monkeys can tell spot the combination of the insides of an epirb, a vhf and an inflation cylander and conclude that I am bona fide ...
To get to the start I use commercial airlines and in the hand carry I have my survival vest complete with co2 inflation cylander and pockets stuffed with Epirbs, hand held vhf in a bag etc etc. Nothing plain dumb like flares or a knife, but I am still amazed that I have never once been stopped for a search.
I have been stopped for a search over slightly too large tubes of toothpaste etc, but never the vest..
I have always expected to have to ddeal with the compressed gas cylander on the banned list v but this thing is certified for flight to flight levels by every agency known to man argument but, nada...
May be the monkeys can tell spot the combination of the insides of an epirb, a vhf and an inflation cylander and conclude that I am bona fide ...