Spanish ATC
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 2
From: United States
ALC last night , RWay in use 10 , surface wind not avail on ATIS ,5000ft wind 310/47 , 3000ft wind 300/28 , 1000ft wind 280/25. Tower report surface wind as "calm".
I had briefed and flown accordingly, meanwhile there is an Iberia on the arc behind us asking our a/c type speed etc(i think , my spanish is limited) and closing very fast accordingy to our TCAS .at touch down , our aircraft showed the surface wind as 280/15 k.
Allowing for a margin of error of say 30 % , which is pretty unlikely in the aircraft kit , even with that there is no way that the wind was "calm"
Its exactly this sort of thing that is repeated every day that concerns pilots about Spanish ATC.
The only moment of relief in the entire evening was watching the antics of a Spanair MD80 who flew one of those tightly curved spanish visual's only to roll out at 500 and discover the "spanish calm" ,interesting go-around.
I had briefed and flown accordingly, meanwhile there is an Iberia on the arc behind us asking our a/c type speed etc(i think , my spanish is limited) and closing very fast accordingy to our TCAS .at touch down , our aircraft showed the surface wind as 280/15 k.
Allowing for a margin of error of say 30 % , which is pretty unlikely in the aircraft kit , even with that there is no way that the wind was "calm"
Its exactly this sort of thing that is repeated every day that concerns pilots about Spanish ATC.
The only moment of relief in the entire evening was watching the antics of a Spanair MD80 who flew one of those tightly curved spanish visual's only to roll out at 500 and discover the "spanish calm" ,interesting go-around.
Last edited by Nil further; 30th May 2007 at 10:10.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 2,317
From: UK
Belk,
No-one is trying to annoy anyone. All we are stating is that there are certain elements of ATC in Spain which leave a lot to be desired. In your role as a Trainee (?) ATCO you are in a unique position to raise awareness of this thread to your tutors/instructors. The "don't perpetuate this thread" line isn't going to work.
I too have experienced 45 knot tailwinds off the arc from VILNA into ALC and it's not a comfortable position to be in. Personally I'm be back at 160 knots at that point with that sort of wind - if one of the locals isn't (and will probably have a ground speed nudging 280+ hitting the glide) then that's entirely his problem. "Calm" is now known as "Spanish Calm" to my trainees -i.e. expect a tailwind. So we are being told one thing when the reality is something different - that's not on and probably illegal on the part of the controller. What would happen following (god forbid) an accident if it was proved that the "calm" was in fact a 15 tail.
BCN, PMI, MAD, ALC are the most "difficult" - not always but usually. At AGP they sometimes are unable to give descent but WILL NOT take the initiative and vector you. How many times have I seen a profile deviation of +6000' heading towards MAR - and they just don't seem to realise that you cannot get the height off........
I've been vectored onto 24L at PMI (landing runway on ATIS and ILS still radiating) even though it was covered in vehicles doing runway work...... fortuately it was a clear night and I was able to spot/query what was going on. 30 mins after we landed the ATIS was STILL giving 24L as landing runway.
MOR duly filed. What if the cloud base had been 200' ? A very late GA and some pretty scared workmen (let alone pilots!) I've been cleared to lineup and take-off 24R at PMI with traffic on final.....
I've been cleared to land on 25L at BCN when runway in use was 07L. On the same night I was cleared take-off 07L even though I was on 07R. Can't remember if it's a common tower freq for both R/W's but if anyone was short final for 07L.....
The problem is it's got to the point where we just accept it "because it's Spain". But why don't Spanish controllers understand that you cannot fly 200 knots to 3.5D? Why do they not realise that having a 50 knot tailwind at 4000 feet on the approach might cause us a bit of difficulty. Why are trainee Spanish ATCO's not aware of this - BELK?
I've also witnessed loads of "interesting" (unquestionably unstable) approaches - why do they do it? Culture? Loss of face? Lack of training? Lack of awareness? Lack of monitoring (OFDM/FLIDRAS)? I'm not racist or xenophobic but I cannot understand why things don't improve and are allowed to continue in this way.
WE ALL WORK AND OPERATE IN THE SAME AIRSPACE AND ARE THEREFORE ENTITLED TO A MINIMUM LEVEL OF PROFESSIOANLISM FROM ALL PILOTS AND ATCO's. Why should MY workload be significantly increased because I'm trying to figure out what's going on around me. Trying to build a mental model at someof these places is nigh on impossible (especially when ATC talk in Spanish - but that's another discussion completely). We file ASR's/MOR's but I have only seen the status quo maintained for years. Agreed, traffic levels have significantly increased - but that's the argument for a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the quality of ATC - if it's creaking under pressure well it's just a matter of time. An accident waiting to happen is a phrase that springs to mind.
Sorry it's a bit long winded.
A4
No-one is trying to annoy anyone. All we are stating is that there are certain elements of ATC in Spain which leave a lot to be desired. In your role as a Trainee (?) ATCO you are in a unique position to raise awareness of this thread to your tutors/instructors. The "don't perpetuate this thread" line isn't going to work.
I too have experienced 45 knot tailwinds off the arc from VILNA into ALC and it's not a comfortable position to be in. Personally I'm be back at 160 knots at that point with that sort of wind - if one of the locals isn't (and will probably have a ground speed nudging 280+ hitting the glide) then that's entirely his problem. "Calm" is now known as "Spanish Calm" to my trainees -i.e. expect a tailwind. So we are being told one thing when the reality is something different - that's not on and probably illegal on the part of the controller. What would happen following (god forbid) an accident if it was proved that the "calm" was in fact a 15 tail.
BCN, PMI, MAD, ALC are the most "difficult" - not always but usually. At AGP they sometimes are unable to give descent but WILL NOT take the initiative and vector you. How many times have I seen a profile deviation of +6000' heading towards MAR - and they just don't seem to realise that you cannot get the height off........
I've been vectored onto 24L at PMI (landing runway on ATIS and ILS still radiating) even though it was covered in vehicles doing runway work...... fortuately it was a clear night and I was able to spot/query what was going on. 30 mins after we landed the ATIS was STILL giving 24L as landing runway.
MOR duly filed. What if the cloud base had been 200' ? A very late GA and some pretty scared workmen (let alone pilots!) I've been cleared to lineup and take-off 24R at PMI with traffic on final.....I've been cleared to land on 25L at BCN when runway in use was 07L. On the same night I was cleared take-off 07L even though I was on 07R. Can't remember if it's a common tower freq for both R/W's but if anyone was short final for 07L.....
The problem is it's got to the point where we just accept it "because it's Spain". But why don't Spanish controllers understand that you cannot fly 200 knots to 3.5D? Why do they not realise that having a 50 knot tailwind at 4000 feet on the approach might cause us a bit of difficulty. Why are trainee Spanish ATCO's not aware of this - BELK?
I've also witnessed loads of "interesting" (unquestionably unstable) approaches - why do they do it? Culture? Loss of face? Lack of training? Lack of awareness? Lack of monitoring (OFDM/FLIDRAS)? I'm not racist or xenophobic but I cannot understand why things don't improve and are allowed to continue in this way.
WE ALL WORK AND OPERATE IN THE SAME AIRSPACE AND ARE THEREFORE ENTITLED TO A MINIMUM LEVEL OF PROFESSIOANLISM FROM ALL PILOTS AND ATCO's. Why should MY workload be significantly increased because I'm trying to figure out what's going on around me. Trying to build a mental model at someof these places is nigh on impossible (especially when ATC talk in Spanish - but that's another discussion completely). We file ASR's/MOR's but I have only seen the status quo maintained for years. Agreed, traffic levels have significantly increased - but that's the argument for a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the quality of ATC - if it's creaking under pressure well it's just a matter of time. An accident waiting to happen is a phrase that springs to mind.
Sorry it's a bit long winded.
A4
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Spanistan
Yes, you´re right, i remember our last lesson, the instructor said "up to 20 knots = wind calm"... Do you really think that´s possible? Do you really think someone can do that on purpose? or beacuse of a lack of training? or because he belongs to a different race?
I was just saying that everyone makes mistakes, the thing is we all have to improve instead of just blame or bash.
Well, i don´t want to say "do not perpetuate this" and be the first one doing it, so i´ll stop posting.
Ciao.
I was just saying that everyone makes mistakes, the thing is we all have to improve instead of just blame or bash.
Well, i don´t want to say "do not perpetuate this" and be the first one doing it, so i´ll stop posting.
Ciao.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 2,317
From: UK
Hello BELK
Thx for the quick reply. No I don't think that Spanish ATCO's are taught "upto 20 knots = calm", but on very regular occaisions I have been told calm and IT IS NOT!!!!!!! It's a noticable tailwind and you can feel it after landing when you do the walk round. So why do we get told it's calm? That is not a mistake on the part of the ATCO - he has a wind reading in front of him...... so is it done "on purpose"?
The only conclusion is preferential runway for arrivals. Herein lies the danger. BAe146 that crashed at LSZH/ZRH during a Non Precision Approach to R/W 28. The more sensible runway (with ILS) commenced its approach over German airspace but it was late so "unavailable"........
B747 off the end at EHAM/AMS during a huge crosswind approach because 27 arrives over a residential area and it was late so "unavail........
BELK please don't duck out of the discussion - no one is "having a go". We, as Professional pilots, operate in Spanish airspace and we have legitamate concerns over the quality of the service we recieve at some airports and wonder why it never improves. Perhaps you could raise this with your instructors? For me the biggest concerns are (lack of) speed control at BCN/MAD and tailwind landings when it is "calm".
A4
Thx for the quick reply. No I don't think that Spanish ATCO's are taught "upto 20 knots = calm", but on very regular occaisions I have been told calm and IT IS NOT!!!!!!! It's a noticable tailwind and you can feel it after landing when you do the walk round. So why do we get told it's calm? That is not a mistake on the part of the ATCO - he has a wind reading in front of him...... so is it done "on purpose"?
The only conclusion is preferential runway for arrivals. Herein lies the danger. BAe146 that crashed at LSZH/ZRH during a Non Precision Approach to R/W 28. The more sensible runway (with ILS) commenced its approach over German airspace but it was late so "unavailable"........
B747 off the end at EHAM/AMS during a huge crosswind approach because 27 arrives over a residential area and it was late so "unavail........
BELK please don't duck out of the discussion - no one is "having a go". We, as Professional pilots, operate in Spanish airspace and we have legitamate concerns over the quality of the service we recieve at some airports and wonder why it never improves. Perhaps you could raise this with your instructors? For me the biggest concerns are (lack of) speed control at BCN/MAD and tailwind landings when it is "calm".
A4
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Canarias, Spain
Hello again.
To my surprise, you just read the posts you want to read, or my english is so bad that i can´t get myself to be understood.
Anyway, again, you are talking about a problem that has nothing to do with the controller in charge. If the controller has the "wind calm" information, he/she will give you "wind calm". If he has another information, he will give it to you. And that´s all. But you guys don´t even suppose that the controller has a (again i have to take your word) wrong information, you assume the controller is incompetent. And that´s something that i will not accept.
British pilots need a separate thread also, but (for obvious reasons) not in Pprune.
Belk (sorry guys for the spanish):
Pasa. Los que llevamos por aquí un tiempo ya lidiamos con este tipo de anglocentrismo desde hace ni se sabe, estudia mucho y mira la parte de los foros (de este o del que sea) que te sirva de algo, pero no les hagas ni caso. Lo suyo es pilotar, lo tuyo controlar. Un saludo y suerte.
Best regards.
To my surprise, you just read the posts you want to read, or my english is so bad that i can´t get myself to be understood.
Anyway, again, you are talking about a problem that has nothing to do with the controller in charge. If the controller has the "wind calm" information, he/she will give you "wind calm". If he has another information, he will give it to you. And that´s all. But you guys don´t even suppose that the controller has a (again i have to take your word) wrong information, you assume the controller is incompetent. And that´s something that i will not accept.
British pilots need a separate thread also, but (for obvious reasons) not in Pprune.
Belk (sorry guys for the spanish):
Pasa. Los que llevamos por aquí un tiempo ya lidiamos con este tipo de anglocentrismo desde hace ni se sabe, estudia mucho y mira la parte de los foros (de este o del que sea) que te sirva de algo, pero no les hagas ni caso. Lo suyo es pilotar, lo tuyo controlar. Un saludo y suerte.
Best regards.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
Sonnendec,
This is not about British pilots but the English language and its use in aviation.
For example, the most professional demonstration of this I have heard was some years ago. A Lufthansa pilot checked in speaking German. The Rhine sector controller replied in English saying "For the benefit of all of us and flight safety, please speak English." He was a guy who truly understood why we have an agreed common tongue. To the chagrin of the French particularly, it just happens to be English.
This is not about British pilots but the English language and its use in aviation.
For example, the most professional demonstration of this I have heard was some years ago. A Lufthansa pilot checked in speaking German. The Rhine sector controller replied in English saying "For the benefit of all of us and flight safety, please speak English." He was a guy who truly understood why we have an agreed common tongue. To the chagrin of the French particularly, it just happens to be English.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Bit of a nasty thread which wont convince the Spanish/South Americans to change their ways,if their ways need changing which I frankly doubt.We've all seen bad ATC from time to time,even in parts of the world where it is normally exceptional.
In general,their ATCO's are proficient but not polished.
In general,their ATCO's are proficient but not polished.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Canarias, Spain
Mr. Slot,
this thread is not about english and its use in aviation, but about spanish controller´s proficiency. By the way, what you have said about the german guy denotes your lack of knowledge about international aviation rules.
Best regards.
this thread is not about english and its use in aviation, but about spanish controller´s proficiency. By the way, what you have said about the german guy denotes your lack of knowledge about international aviation rules.
Best regards.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
With respect Sonnendec, my statement identifies no lack of understanding of the rules. If anything it shows your lack of understanding of his professionalism. The German controller wanted everyone singing from the same hymn sheet so we ALL new what was happening.
Despite it being legal, multi-lingual R/T is simply dangerous and has cost lives. It is a fact that the further east and south you go in Europe the more prevalent it becomes.
Despite it being legal, multi-lingual R/T is simply dangerous and has cost lives. It is a fact that the further east and south you go in Europe the more prevalent it becomes.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Canarias, Spain
Mr. Slot:
The german controller is applying the international rules, since german is NOT an ICAO language. Spanish controllers are applying the international rules because spanish IS an ICAO language and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish. Where is the professionalism difference between them? are you asking us to disobey the law?
The german controller is applying the international rules, since german is NOT an ICAO language. Spanish controllers are applying the international rules because spanish IS an ICAO language and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish. Where is the professionalism difference between them? are you asking us to disobey the law?
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 1
From: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
I think it's sad that people trying to promote safe practices (ex. one R/T language) are shot down with the usual "it's all legal to use language xx, and you evedently do not understand international law" etc etc.
Many things are legal in aviation, just not very reccomended.
It's legal to fly trough a active Danger Area, just not wise.
It's legal fly your cessna as close as possible to a large jet in VMC in certain classes of airspace, it's just not something I want to do myself.
It's legal to fly from A to B in an aircraft VFR with only 45 minues reserves in marginal weather....... I don't do that eighter.
Se a pattern?
I fear we will still have the language discussion in 10 years here on pprune, unless is causes a major bang before then.
As for Spanish ATC proficiency, I pray that things are better then outlined here, otherwise it's scary!
Many things are legal in aviation, just not very reccomended.
It's legal to fly trough a active Danger Area, just not wise.
It's legal fly your cessna as close as possible to a large jet in VMC in certain classes of airspace, it's just not something I want to do myself.
It's legal to fly from A to B in an aircraft VFR with only 45 minues reserves in marginal weather....... I don't do that eighter.
Se a pattern?
I fear we will still have the language discussion in 10 years here on pprune, unless is causes a major bang before then.
As for Spanish ATC proficiency, I pray that things are better then outlined here, otherwise it's scary!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Dirty Sands
One of the problems about Spanish ATC is the lack of consistency. While undoubtedly some controllers strive to do a good job most of their colleagues lack of proficiency borders on the downright dangerous.
I suspect they simply deny their shortcomings just because they don't know any better. It would do the Spanish controllers a great favour to take a tour outside their borders, and see how German, British, Dutch, etc ATCOS do a far more professional (and safer) job.
Sonnendec:
This thread is not to hurt your feelings, but that's just how the majority of pilots in Europe feel about the quality of Spanish ATC. They fly to many destinations, all the time. Why do you think they've picked on Spain and not any other country?
If you wish I can arrange for you a jumpseat in the cockpit to anywhere you like within Europe, so that you can compare Spanish ATC with all the others. I'll leave it up to you then to decide if we are right. Do you accept the challenge?
I suspect they simply deny their shortcomings just because they don't know any better. It would do the Spanish controllers a great favour to take a tour outside their borders, and see how German, British, Dutch, etc ATCOS do a far more professional (and safer) job.
Sonnendec:
This thread is not to hurt your feelings, but that's just how the majority of pilots in Europe feel about the quality of Spanish ATC. They fly to many destinations, all the time. Why do you think they've picked on Spain and not any other country?
If you wish I can arrange for you a jumpseat in the cockpit to anywhere you like within Europe, so that you can compare Spanish ATC with all the others. I'll leave it up to you then to decide if we are right. Do you accept the challenge?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,023
Likes: 170
From: uk
Sonnendec
Is it a question of Spanish controllers and pilots who are quite capable of using English trying to make a point or perhaps having to deal with some pilots associated with smaller turboprop operators who cannot speak English to the required standard. As an Englishman I am fortunate to speak the generally agreed 'language of aviation' as my mother tongue - I'm pretty reasonable at understanding French as i does comes up from time to time but Spanish particuarly when spoken quickly is rather beyond me - though the word 'Binter' always seems to attract my attention !
Is it a question of Spanish controllers and pilots who are quite capable of using English trying to make a point or perhaps having to deal with some pilots associated with smaller turboprop operators who cannot speak English to the required standard. As an Englishman I am fortunate to speak the generally agreed 'language of aviation' as my mother tongue - I'm pretty reasonable at understanding French as i does comes up from time to time but Spanish particuarly when spoken quickly is rather beyond me - though the word 'Binter' always seems to attract my attention !
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Canarias, Spain
M609:
I respect all the opinions, such us that using other language than english is nos safe, but you can´t say that we are not professionals because we obey the law. That was my point, nothing else.
Te Rangi:
Of course, i accept. There´s a lack of understanding about air traffic control in this forum, and that´s because you are pilots and we are controllers. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot a plane, and you are trying to evaluate our atc proficiency no matter what i have said in my other posts. Well...
I respect all the opinions, such us that using other language than english is nos safe, but you can´t say that we are not professionals because we obey the law. That was my point, nothing else.
Te Rangi:
Of course, i accept. There´s a lack of understanding about air traffic control in this forum, and that´s because you are pilots and we are controllers. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot a plane, and you are trying to evaluate our atc proficiency no matter what i have said in my other posts. Well...
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
From: NeverLand
I think I've said this before but I'll try and re-phrase it to make it clearer. It's not what some of you say...but the way it is said.
M609,
(for example) if you feel sad...well, it's not under our responsibilities as ATCO's to care for your psichycal wellfare. I know you don't really get that sad (or rather hope?) and that what you mean is that you don't like to see that case you point happening. You know what? I actually think you may be right though in making your point. 1 language may be better for situational awareness. But that doesn't allow for certain ways of saying things(there may be better examples but it's getting long enough so I just picked this one). I must say though that I, sometimes, use spanish also: for freq change, squawk chg, to call someone's attention or, once, to comment a problem that had happened regarding an spanish carrier route (crew had different from the one approved by cfmu) Now, knowing that situational awareness plays no role whatsoever on all of the above...can't I do that neither? Everybody will have an opinion for this one I assume
Also take into account that, as sad as it may be, sonnendec is also right. When the bussines started rules were laid down and this was agreed. Wanna change the rules? Do it the right way -if we check the name of the thread it's not about the language but it keeps creeping up here and, anyway, an internet forum is not going to change the real thing-.
One thing I would like to read more often perhaps is, when someone complaints about a given situation, please mention what you would have expected from that situation. For example: I have a colleague, now ATCO, but that was a pilot before. He's told me he remembers one time he was established on final and had visual w the preceding traffic and the controller stuck in front of him an A/c for landing (so he went from being nr 2 to nr 3 when at 8 miles from threshold). No infringment of any rule, no loss of separation...but he would have liked to know from beforehand. Maybe a lack of style? perhaps. But not illegal nor unsafe. Point being this colleague and his co-pi would've liked to know. If I would ever be on an app radar or twr and see it happening I'll keep that in mind. Was the guy back then and there working the app told? Don't think so.
Now I try to give tfc info when I can but it doesn't mean I'll do it all the time.
Please be constructive,
A.
M609,
(for example) if you feel sad...well, it's not under our responsibilities as ATCO's to care for your psichycal wellfare. I know you don't really get that sad (or rather hope?) and that what you mean is that you don't like to see that case you point happening. You know what? I actually think you may be right though in making your point. 1 language may be better for situational awareness. But that doesn't allow for certain ways of saying things(there may be better examples but it's getting long enough so I just picked this one). I must say though that I, sometimes, use spanish also: for freq change, squawk chg, to call someone's attention or, once, to comment a problem that had happened regarding an spanish carrier route (crew had different from the one approved by cfmu) Now, knowing that situational awareness plays no role whatsoever on all of the above...can't I do that neither? Everybody will have an opinion for this one I assume
Also take into account that, as sad as it may be, sonnendec is also right. When the bussines started rules were laid down and this was agreed. Wanna change the rules? Do it the right way -if we check the name of the thread it's not about the language but it keeps creeping up here and, anyway, an internet forum is not going to change the real thing-.
One thing I would like to read more often perhaps is, when someone complaints about a given situation, please mention what you would have expected from that situation. For example: I have a colleague, now ATCO, but that was a pilot before. He's told me he remembers one time he was established on final and had visual w the preceding traffic and the controller stuck in front of him an A/c for landing (so he went from being nr 2 to nr 3 when at 8 miles from threshold). No infringment of any rule, no loss of separation...but he would have liked to know from beforehand. Maybe a lack of style? perhaps. But not illegal nor unsafe. Point being this colleague and his co-pi would've liked to know. If I would ever be on an app radar or twr and see it happening I'll keep that in mind. Was the guy back then and there working the app told? Don't think so.
Now I try to give tfc info when I can but it doesn't mean I'll do it all the time.
Please be constructive,
A.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Your TCAS is your life.
In my humble opinion.
The problems are latent in the system.
We discussed this before see Barcelona ATC/Ground collision
In Spain the controllers are not going to hold your hand.
You have to be pro active and adapt to their style. They will not change completely, so deal with it.
They will get you when you least expect it.
Well said the problem is consistancy.
There are excellent controllers and others who have no business being there in Spain.
The sub standard controllers should be removed.
In Barcelona or Madrid you have to do your own speed reductions for traffic separation. Tell the controllers your speed change of course.
If you blindly follow the controllers as in Amsterdam, you will be doing many go arounds in Spain and hitting wake turbulence.
Your game has to be better in Spain.
As a pilot turn up your Situational Awareness a level. Expect the worst and hope for the best.
A number of the Spanish ATC do not have the capacity to do the job when things get hot.
This is a Spanish ATC training/standards issue.
It is not only language it involves situational awareness, the natural ability to make quick mental calculations and give vectors.
I've spoken to Spanish guys about the hiring and selection process perhaps there is too much of an emphasis on exams and not what a person can do on the radar screen ?
Spanish culture is part of the problem and solution.
Spanish pride does get in the way sometimes. We all make mistakes so`let us admit them.
There is a problem in the system so admit it ? The safety reports back this up.
For the Spanish ATC guys Please enlighten us and explain if we are missing something here. I am here to learn.
The problems are latent in the system.
We discussed this before see Barcelona ATC/Ground collision
In Spain the controllers are not going to hold your hand.
You have to be pro active and adapt to their style. They will not change completely, so deal with it.
They will get you when you least expect it.
Well said the problem is consistancy.
There are excellent controllers and others who have no business being there in Spain.
The sub standard controllers should be removed.
In Barcelona or Madrid you have to do your own speed reductions for traffic separation. Tell the controllers your speed change of course.
If you blindly follow the controllers as in Amsterdam, you will be doing many go arounds in Spain and hitting wake turbulence.
Your game has to be better in Spain.
As a pilot turn up your Situational Awareness a level. Expect the worst and hope for the best.
A number of the Spanish ATC do not have the capacity to do the job when things get hot.
This is a Spanish ATC training/standards issue.
It is not only language it involves situational awareness, the natural ability to make quick mental calculations and give vectors.
I've spoken to Spanish guys about the hiring and selection process perhaps there is too much of an emphasis on exams and not what a person can do on the radar screen ?
Spanish culture is part of the problem and solution.
Spanish pride does get in the way sometimes. We all make mistakes so`let us admit them.
There is a problem in the system so admit it ? The safety reports back this up.
For the Spanish ATC guys Please enlighten us and explain if we are missing something here. I am here to learn.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Canarias, Spain
Mach trim,
Thank you very much for your post, it´s really fresh air for us.
We are as good as the worst of us. I think that can be the sentence that resumes the situation you encounter sometimes around here. We have to raise the standards of a few, but is not a generalised issue. We need continuous formation and we are fighting since a long time to get it, but, once again, spanish authorities are very very slow, specially if it´s a matter of money.
More coming soon...
Best regards.
Thank you very much for your post, it´s really fresh air for us.
We are as good as the worst of us. I think that can be the sentence that resumes the situation you encounter sometimes around here. We have to raise the standards of a few, but is not a generalised issue. We need continuous formation and we are fighting since a long time to get it, but, once again, spanish authorities are very very slow, specially if it´s a matter of money.
More coming soon...
Best regards.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: UK
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2000/g-...-wn000525.html
Section 3.2 Causes Probables:
"Ont contribué à l'accident : L'emploi de deux langues pour les radiocommunications, qui a supprimé la possibilité pour l'équipage du Shorts de réaliser que le MD 83 allait décoller."
The collision has been discussed before but I don't think the language comment has been highlighted.