Spanish ATC
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where its at
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what it's worth here's my two pesos worth.
And to hopefully qualify it somewhat I speak as a UK pilot having operated throughout Europe, including all of these Spanish airports mentioned. Fluent Spanish speaker, lived in a couple of latin countries yada yada yada.
Gents, I think it boils down to, or at least stems from, national cultures being reflected in aviation culture. German was mentioned earlier - ie highly proficient and organised, which is what most of us would consider our German friends to be, even if they themselves may not.
*Generalisation follows*
Spain, Italy etc - are cavalier to an extent, if compared with the Brits, I feel that a good example of this is to be found in the extant "fully ready" thread. People there discussing how this one emphatic word doesn't appear in the CAP, how it needs definition, how it's tautologous etc. Entirely uncalled for unless, dare it say it, autistic. Hardly the sort of folks with whom I'd necessarily want to go for a drink, although alas, I must on occasion. We have very rigid SOPs and a mentality such to the extent that we have pilots afraid of flying their aircraft, whilst being able to lecture on the intrinsic composition of a switch.
In other countries, where dare I say it, life is more for living, there is less of this, and more of a self-reliant attitude. Yes, it's also more risky. Five minutes on the road for example should serve to underline this. Either viewpoint is anathema to the other, although more so from the more conservative to the less so. Spanish ATC practices reflect all the above I believe.
One thing that doesn't help is the hysteria which certain posters feel necessary to invoke in their posts when telling of their latest death defying jaunt to Alicante or wherever. Give me a break.
It is not that dangerous. It is more dangerous than the UK. Our approach to aviation has become so strongly risk-averse that this thread reagrding Spanish ATC has come to life. I don't advocate playing the fool, digging a fatal hole for ones self or ones passengers. Safety is the main concern, not having fun. However, although the ATC in Spain is not as good as the UK - it does not follow that it must be Certain risks are acceptable, and I believe that operations into Spain fall below this tolerance.
We do not need to be afraid of everything.
And to hopefully qualify it somewhat I speak as a UK pilot having operated throughout Europe, including all of these Spanish airports mentioned. Fluent Spanish speaker, lived in a couple of latin countries yada yada yada.
Gents, I think it boils down to, or at least stems from, national cultures being reflected in aviation culture. German was mentioned earlier - ie highly proficient and organised, which is what most of us would consider our German friends to be, even if they themselves may not.
*Generalisation follows*
Spain, Italy etc - are cavalier to an extent, if compared with the Brits, I feel that a good example of this is to be found in the extant "fully ready" thread. People there discussing how this one emphatic word doesn't appear in the CAP, how it needs definition, how it's tautologous etc. Entirely uncalled for unless, dare it say it, autistic. Hardly the sort of folks with whom I'd necessarily want to go for a drink, although alas, I must on occasion. We have very rigid SOPs and a mentality such to the extent that we have pilots afraid of flying their aircraft, whilst being able to lecture on the intrinsic composition of a switch.
In other countries, where dare I say it, life is more for living, there is less of this, and more of a self-reliant attitude. Yes, it's also more risky. Five minutes on the road for example should serve to underline this. Either viewpoint is anathema to the other, although more so from the more conservative to the less so. Spanish ATC practices reflect all the above I believe.
One thing that doesn't help is the hysteria which certain posters feel necessary to invoke in their posts when telling of their latest death defying jaunt to Alicante or wherever. Give me a break.
It is not that dangerous. It is more dangerous than the UK. Our approach to aviation has become so strongly risk-averse that this thread reagrding Spanish ATC has come to life. I don't advocate playing the fool, digging a fatal hole for ones self or ones passengers. Safety is the main concern, not having fun. However, although the ATC in Spain is not as good as the UK - it does not follow that it must be Certain risks are acceptable, and I believe that operations into Spain fall below this tolerance.
We do not need to be afraid of everything.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: EHBK
Age: 58
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Caudillo,
Great post mate! Let's not get carried away. A buddy of mine had a string of 'occurrences' which left him with the impression EDDF controllers had a contract out on him. S£!t happens to various and varying degrees in all locations.
Great post mate! Let's not get carried away. A buddy of mine had a string of 'occurrences' which left him with the impression EDDF controllers had a contract out on him. S£!t happens to various and varying degrees in all locations.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Fair enough Caudillo, you make your points clearly.
One question though, why do I feel more at risk going into AGP or ALC, than I ever did going into Accra, or mayby Malabo?...actually, its a rhetorical question; The very reason I feel more at risk is the very thing you have pointed out "Safety is the main concern", personally I believe the level of competency on display from my own experiences takes me above the tolerance level of what I consider safe.
I don't give two sh%ts about what cultural differences exist, or indeed if there is such a thing when it comes to Spanish ATC, what I do care about are the 200 or so pax who place their faith in the crew to get them to their destination safe and sound. It doesn't appear to be a cultural thing when you get a vector placing you at serious risk of burying the thing into the side of a mountain.
One question though, why do I feel more at risk going into AGP or ALC, than I ever did going into Accra, or mayby Malabo?...actually, its a rhetorical question; The very reason I feel more at risk is the very thing you have pointed out "Safety is the main concern", personally I believe the level of competency on display from my own experiences takes me above the tolerance level of what I consider safe.
I don't give two sh%ts about what cultural differences exist, or indeed if there is such a thing when it comes to Spanish ATC, what I do care about are the 200 or so pax who place their faith in the crew to get them to their destination safe and sound. It doesn't appear to be a cultural thing when you get a vector placing you at serious risk of burying the thing into the side of a mountain.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: holland
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the area controllers sound like they are talking to you on a 1950's radio, underwater in a bath.
THAT is exactly what most UK controllers sound like !
Talking into their thin cans and issuing vectors all over the place except my filed airway!
Spain may suck, but try italy, greece, AF, SAM, CAM, not to MENTION asia !
Just keep your eyes and ears open, it's your life !
If you fly into spain more than 10 times a week, get a language course.
If you fly into spain more than 10 times a week, get a language course.
And stop comparing Spain to Africa. They should get their act together. Their ATC peers are in Europe, not some Banana Republic in the tropics.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haughtney,
Nothing is black and white in this world.You might think that English only ATC is the safest and logic is certainly on your side.However,there are circumstances where an ATCO can more easily manage a situation by addressing an aircraft in their common native tongue,and vice-versa.
How many missed calls or incorrrect readbacks do we hear on the radio every day?Do you really think the average pilot can derive good situational awareness by listening to the commands given to other traffic?They might hear but do they listen?At busy airports,crews have enough on their plate just getting their own taxi instructions right.Whilst a good crew will monitor other calls,can they really derive good SA all of the time by doing so?
Position and hold and takeoff clearances on a runway with both intersection/full length departures should be done in ENGLISH I agree.Same goes for takeoff/landing clearances on intersecting runways(good example is the old layout at BCN).
The reality is that trust between an ATCO and a pilot is implicit.Additionally,we have TCAS and they have their computer backups too.Pilots can help ATCO's in all kinds of ways and they should really do so when at all possible.Unfortunately,some dont just to make a point.And ATCO's can help pilots above and beyond separation as well(EAL401 might have been saved by a sharp ATCO).
Finally,and it has to be said I'm afraid;a lot of Brits(and maybe a few Yanks) go to these far flung places expecting the ATC to be like blightey/uncle Sam.It is different;you cant colloquialize,the tempo's unfamiliar and you will hear other languages.But if you remember that the worst disaster in aviation history happened on the ground and everybody was communicating in English at the time,then you will realise that nothing in life is for sure.If you do x,you will get y.Well..maybe,maybe not.
Nothing is black and white in this world.You might think that English only ATC is the safest and logic is certainly on your side.However,there are circumstances where an ATCO can more easily manage a situation by addressing an aircraft in their common native tongue,and vice-versa.
How many missed calls or incorrrect readbacks do we hear on the radio every day?Do you really think the average pilot can derive good situational awareness by listening to the commands given to other traffic?They might hear but do they listen?At busy airports,crews have enough on their plate just getting their own taxi instructions right.Whilst a good crew will monitor other calls,can they really derive good SA all of the time by doing so?
Position and hold and takeoff clearances on a runway with both intersection/full length departures should be done in ENGLISH I agree.Same goes for takeoff/landing clearances on intersecting runways(good example is the old layout at BCN).
The reality is that trust between an ATCO and a pilot is implicit.Additionally,we have TCAS and they have their computer backups too.Pilots can help ATCO's in all kinds of ways and they should really do so when at all possible.Unfortunately,some dont just to make a point.And ATCO's can help pilots above and beyond separation as well(EAL401 might have been saved by a sharp ATCO).
Finally,and it has to be said I'm afraid;a lot of Brits(and maybe a few Yanks) go to these far flung places expecting the ATC to be like blightey/uncle Sam.It is different;you cant colloquialize,the tempo's unfamiliar and you will hear other languages.But if you remember that the worst disaster in aviation history happened on the ground and everybody was communicating in English at the time,then you will realise that nothing in life is for sure.If you do x,you will get y.Well..maybe,maybe not.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dirty Sands
Age: 62
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread has grown to be 9 pages long because there is a genuine concern among the pilot community that the increase in high density traffic together with poor ATC standards in Spain may bring unacceptable risks. It is not about personal preferences, collective bashings, or national or cultural comparisons. It is about safety.
And yet some posters pretend that it’s all in our heads, that we are biased against Spain and that Spanish ATC is as good as any. Well, to put things in perspective let me use a few points to illustrate:
Where in Europe when checking in on a new freq you regularly have to call two, or three or more times to get a response? All over Spain.
Where in Europe do you have to constantly remind ATC of approaching altitude to avoid unnecessary and inefficient level-offs? Spain.
Where does ATC issue speed reductions and then forget about it, prompting the crew to further adjust the speed on their own? Madrid and Barcelona.
Where does ATC exhibit a total lack of understanding of speed control and jet performance? Spain.
Where are the most inane (and confusing) taxi clearances issued? MAD, BCN, CDG.
Where are you often vectored to intercept the LOC at a 60-70º angle (and above GS)? BCN rwy 07.
Where are you almost guaranteed of a go around if you blindly adhere to ATC speeds? BCN and MAD.
Where are you vectored over high ground, told to intercept the LOC above the GS and at the same time instructed a speed reduction? MAD rwy 18.
Where is there some confusion as to being cleared to the Left or Right runway during simultaneous parallel approaches? MAD rwy 33 or 18.
Where is the most impossibly complex airspace? MAD (look at their missed approach procedures).
Which airports require more Jeppesen plates than any other to do the same job? MAD and BCN.
Where have I been cleared for an ILS, Glide Slope only, No Localizer approach? Malaga.
Where do most controllers have but a very basic knowledge of the English language, making other than bread and butter communications difficult? All over Spain (and possibly other places).
Where is non standard, unprofessional phraseology often used (e.g. issuing a clearance without mentioning the aircraft call sign)? BCN and MAD.
Where is the simultaneous use of two different languages lead to a dangerous lack of situational awareness? Spain, France and Russia.
What is my personal count of TCAS RAs? USA: 2; Spain:3; Rest of the world put together: Zero
And yet some posters pretend that it’s all in our heads, that we are biased against Spain and that Spanish ATC is as good as any. Well, to put things in perspective let me use a few points to illustrate:
Where in Europe when checking in on a new freq you regularly have to call two, or three or more times to get a response? All over Spain.
Where in Europe do you have to constantly remind ATC of approaching altitude to avoid unnecessary and inefficient level-offs? Spain.
Where does ATC issue speed reductions and then forget about it, prompting the crew to further adjust the speed on their own? Madrid and Barcelona.
Where does ATC exhibit a total lack of understanding of speed control and jet performance? Spain.
Where are the most inane (and confusing) taxi clearances issued? MAD, BCN, CDG.
Where are you often vectored to intercept the LOC at a 60-70º angle (and above GS)? BCN rwy 07.
Where are you almost guaranteed of a go around if you blindly adhere to ATC speeds? BCN and MAD.
Where are you vectored over high ground, told to intercept the LOC above the GS and at the same time instructed a speed reduction? MAD rwy 18.
Where is there some confusion as to being cleared to the Left or Right runway during simultaneous parallel approaches? MAD rwy 33 or 18.
Where is the most impossibly complex airspace? MAD (look at their missed approach procedures).
Which airports require more Jeppesen plates than any other to do the same job? MAD and BCN.
Where have I been cleared for an ILS, Glide Slope only, No Localizer approach? Malaga.
Where do most controllers have but a very basic knowledge of the English language, making other than bread and butter communications difficult? All over Spain (and possibly other places).
Where is non standard, unprofessional phraseology often used (e.g. issuing a clearance without mentioning the aircraft call sign)? BCN and MAD.
Where is the simultaneous use of two different languages lead to a dangerous lack of situational awareness? Spain, France and Russia.
What is my personal count of TCAS RAs? USA: 2; Spain:3; Rest of the world put together: Zero
Claudillo , nice post . . . . . . . . however
We have all heard of the accident chain , in my post above , i know now that the wind at touchdown must have been around 15k on the tail , NOT CALM .
If that is not the "first link in the chain" i dont know what is .When you add on the next link of the IBeria behind us chasing up our tail at 300 k and the kamikaze viuals of the Spanair men then the chain is forming , only one more link and you have an accident/incident.
Lets say i had a junior colleague as PF, he floats long in the tail wind and then its all looking a bit tight , and as you are habituallly cleared to land whilst the other guy is still on the runway . . . . . . . . . . .
I dont see that getting loads of radar vectors in the UK is in anyway analgous to telling the crew of a 100 tonne aircraft that the wind is calm when in fact there is a tailwind that exceeds the aircrafts certification !
Grow up guys its not an attack on Spanish culture ,Spanish men ,Spanish women or Spanish airlines . All i want is the truth about the weather conditions and an acknowledgement that standards could be improved at most of the Spanish major airports.
There are some regional airports in the UK that really need to pull their socks up as well ,in many cases they have not changed their procedures for thirty years .The seperation on final at GLA & EDI springs to mind ! Self vectoring and establishing at 40DME at BFS is another.
We have all heard of the accident chain , in my post above , i know now that the wind at touchdown must have been around 15k on the tail , NOT CALM .
If that is not the "first link in the chain" i dont know what is .When you add on the next link of the IBeria behind us chasing up our tail at 300 k and the kamikaze viuals of the Spanair men then the chain is forming , only one more link and you have an accident/incident.
Lets say i had a junior colleague as PF, he floats long in the tail wind and then its all looking a bit tight , and as you are habituallly cleared to land whilst the other guy is still on the runway . . . . . . . . . . .
I dont see that getting loads of radar vectors in the UK is in anyway analgous to telling the crew of a 100 tonne aircraft that the wind is calm when in fact there is a tailwind that exceeds the aircrafts certification !
Grow up guys its not an attack on Spanish culture ,Spanish men ,Spanish women or Spanish airlines . All i want is the truth about the weather conditions and an acknowledgement that standards could be improved at most of the Spanish major airports.
There are some regional airports in the UK that really need to pull their socks up as well ,in many cases they have not changed their procedures for thirty years .The seperation on final at GLA & EDI springs to mind ! Self vectoring and establishing at 40DME at BFS is another.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: My views - Not my employer!
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok my take on this subject...
May I start with the Italians...I do like the way that they operate. I like the fact that the majority of conversation with Italian speaking aircraft is in English. I can then follow the traffic picture, whilst Italian chat does go on to resolve the 'other stuff' (I don't object to this and is more effective for the more complex stuff) the majority is in English and that is important. As for being more 'Cavalier' they are getting better and better. I prefer operating to Italy (I accept the beaurocracy that goes with it too...)
Onto Spain. Spanish sometimes get priority. Sometimes I have in my Brit reg jet. Move on, wait your turn and go when told, coz whilst I am sitting on the ground I'm still burning my hours.... (see where I'm coming from?) I ain't bovvered!
Right, ATC wise whilst airborne. Within the last year I have been vectored 3nm behind a heavy on approach (I fly a medium) IMC - When asked about the aircarft ahead I was told 737 - sent to next frequency. Next frequency told me A310 and did the correct thing of breaking off my approach. THAT IS WHAT I CANNOT STAND, BEING LIED TO. Geddit... Whilst the Spanish/English mix prevails, I can not gain the traffic picture and thus can't stop this stuff at the beginning. The above was the subject of a Safety report. Another 4 of serious nature (2 worse then the example above) have been filed by me in the last year about ATC standards in Spain.
As far as I see it, if they are good enough then they should be able to operate mixed English/Spainish. In my opinion, they aren't so English should prevail.
/quiet mode/
May I start with the Italians...I do like the way that they operate. I like the fact that the majority of conversation with Italian speaking aircraft is in English. I can then follow the traffic picture, whilst Italian chat does go on to resolve the 'other stuff' (I don't object to this and is more effective for the more complex stuff) the majority is in English and that is important. As for being more 'Cavalier' they are getting better and better. I prefer operating to Italy (I accept the beaurocracy that goes with it too...)
Onto Spain. Spanish sometimes get priority. Sometimes I have in my Brit reg jet. Move on, wait your turn and go when told, coz whilst I am sitting on the ground I'm still burning my hours.... (see where I'm coming from?) I ain't bovvered!
Right, ATC wise whilst airborne. Within the last year I have been vectored 3nm behind a heavy on approach (I fly a medium) IMC - When asked about the aircarft ahead I was told 737 - sent to next frequency. Next frequency told me A310 and did the correct thing of breaking off my approach. THAT IS WHAT I CANNOT STAND, BEING LIED TO. Geddit... Whilst the Spanish/English mix prevails, I can not gain the traffic picture and thus can't stop this stuff at the beginning. The above was the subject of a Safety report. Another 4 of serious nature (2 worse then the example above) have been filed by me in the last year about ATC standards in Spain.
As far as I see it, if they are good enough then they should be able to operate mixed English/Spainish. In my opinion, they aren't so English should prevail.
/quiet mode/
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, I’ve never heard more nonsense in my life. I have to admit some things are true, but if you are dumb enough to think it doesn’t happen all around the world, you should take an IQ test and quit flying.
The only reason this post even came up is because most of you have never flown in Asia or South America.
I feel like writing a few horror stories I have witnessed while flying through the UK in just the last month. Three weeks ago (EGMC), I saw an airplane cleared to land while another airplane was taxing on the runway cleared to take off. The landing aircraft almost landed on top of the aircraft that was on the runway. The bad part is that the controller asked the airplane going around why he was executing a go-around. I think the controller just wasn’t paying attention. I guarantee you the pilots on the ground wet their pants. That’s the quality of ATC in the UK.
Spanish, French and Italian are ICAO languages, get used to it. If you are frustrated because you can’t understand what other pilots are saying, do what a lot of us do, take lessons in a foreign language.
TE RANGI:
You have a whole list of mistakes caused by Spanish ATC. You might fool a newbie, but most of those mistakes are your fault. ATC is not there to hold your hand and teach you how to fly. If they give you a 70 degree intercept and above the GS (Which I don’t believe), you ask them to correct it, they are also human. ATC is not there to reduce your workload, or to conserve your fuel. Deal with it.
The only reason this post even came up is because most of you have never flown in Asia or South America.
I feel like writing a few horror stories I have witnessed while flying through the UK in just the last month. Three weeks ago (EGMC), I saw an airplane cleared to land while another airplane was taxing on the runway cleared to take off. The landing aircraft almost landed on top of the aircraft that was on the runway. The bad part is that the controller asked the airplane going around why he was executing a go-around. I think the controller just wasn’t paying attention. I guarantee you the pilots on the ground wet their pants. That’s the quality of ATC in the UK.
Spanish, French and Italian are ICAO languages, get used to it. If you are frustrated because you can’t understand what other pilots are saying, do what a lot of us do, take lessons in a foreign language.
TE RANGI:
You have a whole list of mistakes caused by Spanish ATC. You might fool a newbie, but most of those mistakes are your fault. ATC is not there to hold your hand and teach you how to fly. If they give you a 70 degree intercept and above the GS (Which I don’t believe), you ask them to correct it, they are also human. ATC is not there to reduce your workload, or to conserve your fuel. Deal with it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
written by Airbatic7eca
That's the quality of someone who generalises the whole of a nations' ATC system, after having witnessed an event at a very minor aerodrome
..............That’s the quality of ATC in the UK.
That's the quality of someone who generalises the whole of a nations' ATC system, after having witnessed an event at a very minor aerodrome
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
anotherthing:
You hit the nail right on the head. Most of what you read here are generalizations. Since everyone is generalizing about Spanish ATC, why can’t I generalize about UK ATC? I have flown in both airspaces, and in my personal opinion both are very very safe, thus why I made the comment about South America and Asia.
In my case, I have had more issues flying in the UK then I have had in Spain. Its not every day you see an airplane almost touch down on top of another one. And let me tell you, Southend might be smaller than Heathrow, but there is a constant inflow and outflow of big jets. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for clearing an airplane to land while an airplane is on the runway, even at a small airport, but then again, we are all human.
You hit the nail right on the head. Most of what you read here are generalizations. Since everyone is generalizing about Spanish ATC, why can’t I generalize about UK ATC? I have flown in both airspaces, and in my personal opinion both are very very safe, thus why I made the comment about South America and Asia.
In my case, I have had more issues flying in the UK then I have had in Spain. Its not every day you see an airplane almost touch down on top of another one. And let me tell you, Southend might be smaller than Heathrow, but there is a constant inflow and outflow of big jets. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for clearing an airplane to land while an airplane is on the runway, even at a small airport, but then again, we are all human.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbatic7eca
I think the phrase 'constant inflow and outflow of big jets' is pushing it a bit... I am an ATCO who controls for NATS in the London TMA, so I know a little about what goes on there; but you are correct about the generalisation that has gone on in this thread.
I cannot ever agree with anyone who thinks that using more than one language when providing an ATC service is safe, however I do agree with you in respect that there are instances of bad controlling everywhere.
Airbatic, your profile does not really tell us much about your experience, but a lot of what people are alluding to here is what is happening at major airports, not minor ones like Southend.
At many minor aerodromes you get a fairly high percentage of people who were unsuccesful in their training when it came to NATS - the UKs main ATC provider for larger airports and area control. Now these people have validated to the satisfaction of SRG, but at what is deemed to be a minor aerodrome.
These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.
Although nowhere near as busy, when they have their busy 60 minute rush in the morning, the complexity of the mixture of the traffic more than makes up for the relatively low number of movements when compared to a major airport.
I would also like to point out before I get shot down, that there are a lot of people at these aerodromes who have not been through the NATS and therefore cannot be deemed to have 'failed to validate' with NATS, but it is often the case trhat a large proportion of them do fall into the ex-NAts category.
Maybe this is why your personal experience of the UK is such - because you deal mainly with the 'minor' (for want of a better word) aerodromes??
I think the phrase 'constant inflow and outflow of big jets' is pushing it a bit... I am an ATCO who controls for NATS in the London TMA, so I know a little about what goes on there; but you are correct about the generalisation that has gone on in this thread.
I cannot ever agree with anyone who thinks that using more than one language when providing an ATC service is safe, however I do agree with you in respect that there are instances of bad controlling everywhere.
Airbatic, your profile does not really tell us much about your experience, but a lot of what people are alluding to here is what is happening at major airports, not minor ones like Southend.
At many minor aerodromes you get a fairly high percentage of people who were unsuccesful in their training when it came to NATS - the UKs main ATC provider for larger airports and area control. Now these people have validated to the satisfaction of SRG, but at what is deemed to be a minor aerodrome.
These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.
Although nowhere near as busy, when they have their busy 60 minute rush in the morning, the complexity of the mixture of the traffic more than makes up for the relatively low number of movements when compared to a major airport.
I would also like to point out before I get shot down, that there are a lot of people at these aerodromes who have not been through the NATS and therefore cannot be deemed to have 'failed to validate' with NATS, but it is often the case trhat a large proportion of them do fall into the ex-NAts category.
Maybe this is why your personal experience of the UK is such - because you deal mainly with the 'minor' (for want of a better word) aerodromes??
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is going to be my last post in this thread, hopefully.
I don’t see how criticizing ATC is going to resolve any problems. I can only speak from my experience, and that experience, as I have said, is that both UK and Spanish ATC is very safe. My few thousand hours of flying experience might not be what a 65 year old 747 Capitan has, but I can assure you that I have flown in many more countries than 98 percent of the people in this forum.
We, in Europe, are all very lucky to have such a good ATC system. Although in my opinion it doesn’t compare at all to the US system, I think it’s a far improvement from many other parts of the world. In my modest opinion, the best controllers in the world are those at the Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. But let’s leave that for another thread.
anotherthing:
First let me tell you that the London TMA controllers do a fine job, and all I can say is that I truly respect the job that you do.
I have to highlight something you said because it truly concerns me.
“These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.”
You must know the volume of VIP and BA146 traffic that land constantly at Southend. I would like to hear you explain to those pilots why a controller that failed to validate any kind of ATC license can still be guiding them around the sky. Like I said before, landing one airplane on top of another airplane has absolutely no excuse, regardless of the country in which it occurs. I have only seen this happen one time, and it was in the UK.
Every country has ATC issues because it is designed and handled by humans, mistakes will be made. If Spanish ATC was as bad as people make it seem, it would be obvious by the accident statistics, and this is evidently not the case.
F/Sgt Bell:
ATC is there to provide separation between aircraft, not to reduce the number of times you have to level off in the climb to FL350.
Flight with minimum ATC almost exist today, it’s called ADSB. I participated in a testing program for the system, and I can tell you it will be the future. Well programmed computers make far less mistakes than humans.
I hope I didn’t insult anyone. If anyone hates me after my comments, please send me a private message and we can hold a polite debate. I should have been a lawyer.
I don’t see how criticizing ATC is going to resolve any problems. I can only speak from my experience, and that experience, as I have said, is that both UK and Spanish ATC is very safe. My few thousand hours of flying experience might not be what a 65 year old 747 Capitan has, but I can assure you that I have flown in many more countries than 98 percent of the people in this forum.
We, in Europe, are all very lucky to have such a good ATC system. Although in my opinion it doesn’t compare at all to the US system, I think it’s a far improvement from many other parts of the world. In my modest opinion, the best controllers in the world are those at the Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. But let’s leave that for another thread.
anotherthing:
First let me tell you that the London TMA controllers do a fine job, and all I can say is that I truly respect the job that you do.
I have to highlight something you said because it truly concerns me.
“These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.”
You must know the volume of VIP and BA146 traffic that land constantly at Southend. I would like to hear you explain to those pilots why a controller that failed to validate any kind of ATC license can still be guiding them around the sky. Like I said before, landing one airplane on top of another airplane has absolutely no excuse, regardless of the country in which it occurs. I have only seen this happen one time, and it was in the UK.
Every country has ATC issues because it is designed and handled by humans, mistakes will be made. If Spanish ATC was as bad as people make it seem, it would be obvious by the accident statistics, and this is evidently not the case.
F/Sgt Bell:
ATC is there to provide separation between aircraft, not to reduce the number of times you have to level off in the climb to FL350.
Flight with minimum ATC almost exist today, it’s called ADSB. I participated in a testing program for the system, and I can tell you it will be the future. Well programmed computers make far less mistakes than humans.
I hope I didn’t insult anyone. If anyone hates me after my comments, please send me a private message and we can hold a polite debate. I should have been a lawyer.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: on the Blue Planet
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well imagine what life would be like without them....
... would be called free flight and would work, at least en route between terminal areas
Is this gonna be the fight of the RC controlled airplane steered by ATC or TCAS AP flown auto-avoiding airplane, lest we forget the pilot
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Manchester
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A7eca
1. Read the post before critisizing [sp]
What was said
ergo, They ARE valid ATCOS. Perhaps there was a "land after" clearance, and the landing a/c made a mistake.....it HAS been known
However, a very important point IMHO has been missed...."OPEN REPORTING".
Any ATC/FDC errors/mistakes/cock-ups are MOR'd...and "Action is [seen] to be taken" to alleiviate the [raised] "problem". My question is this
"If a Spanish ATCO, witnesses, or makes a mistake, file [without predjudice] a report?" as happens in the UK
bb
1. Read the post before critisizing [sp]
I would like to hear you explain to those pilots why a controller that failed to validate any kind of ATC license can still be guiding them around the sky.
At many minor aerodromes you get a fairly high percentage of people who were unsuccesful in their training when it came to NATS - the UKs main ATC provider for larger airports and area control. Now these people have validated to the satisfaction of SRG, but at what is deemed to be a minor aerodrome.
However, a very important point IMHO has been missed...."OPEN REPORTING".
Any ATC/FDC errors/mistakes/cock-ups are MOR'd...and "Action is [seen] to be taken" to alleiviate the [raised] "problem". My question is this
"If a Spanish ATCO, witnesses, or makes a mistake, file [without predjudice] a report?" as happens in the UK
bb