Spanish ATC

[Sonnendec]

Well, after reading all the bashing and the ridiculous accusations of our professionality (only a few of you, fortunately, i thank the ones making the constructive and polite critics -most of you-), this is my last post here, because it seems to be of no use at all.

Nobody has backed up the supposed lack of safety in my country with any statistic. I will remain waiting for it, until then iīll keep thinlking this forum is too much anglo-centered (itīs funny that when somebody reports an incident involving a UK controller i only read excuses and so on -how would it be if that happened in a spanish airport? -even a "minor" one?-)

So, be happy, feel welcomed in Spain and also to Canarias ACC in case you want to make a visit. Maybe you would see things differently... or maybe not, who knows.

Best regards, safe flights.

[wiccan]

Sonnendec,
I LIKE it. Someone [me] has posted a "safety related" post.....aka "Open Reporting" and it is NOT to your liking....so....

Nobody has backed up the supposed lack of safety in my country with any statistic. I will remain waiting for it, until then iīll keep thinlking this forum is too much anglo-centered (itīs funny that when somebody reports an incident involving a UK controller i only read excuses and so on

As I said to A7eca READ THE POST
Question...DO YOU HAVE OPEN REPORTING IN SPAIN AS IN THE UK?
If not WHY NOT???????
bb

[danishdynamite]

Just to put more fuel on the fire
Why is that 9 out of 10 times when I check in on a spanish frq I am met with "station calling say again" or I have to call 2 or 3 times to get response?
It just makes me feel that the attention on the A/C's is not what I could hope for.

Btw I must also say that ATC at MAN sounds like he is sitting in a bunker and talking into a tin can. Plz fix.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Airbatic7eca

Like I said before, landing one airplane on top of another airplane has absolutely no excuse, regardless of the country in which it occurs. I have only seen this happen one time, and it was in the UK.

Did you actually see an aircraft land on top of another in the UK ... or just a close call ? Some UK airfields can use a conditional clearance to land, where the landing pilot provides his own separation against the specified departing traffic. I don't know if Southend does have this procedure or not. Alternatively, it could have been an error or misjudgement on someones part. It happens all over the world.

We, in Europe, are all very lucky to have such a good ATC system. Although in my opinion it doesn’t compare at all to the US system,

If we come away from the generalisations, the US Air 737 being cleared to land on top of a Skywest Metro and killing 20+ people at LAX in 1991 is not exactly a shining beacon to the world. Runway incursions continue to be a threat in the US system, albeit not the fault of ATC most of the time.

There are good and bad examples of ATC in any system anywhere in the world. Most accidents however seem to have an element of pilot error as a cause, the percentage of those with an ATC aspect are considerably smaller. Discussion and debate such as this one can help raise awareness and let those being criticised do one of 2 things --- either be a victim (it's someone else's fault, there is no problem, you're all wrong) or take the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution. Which improves the safety of aviation for us all ???

[andrijander]

Proof or no proof..till then I remain.

wiccan,

as I said before, I am an atc and I am spanish but I don't work in spain. Does anybody have any proof of all the things being said here? Now really...anyone? I'm not saying anyone in here is not telling the truth but I have the feeling it's all down to personal impressions -out of the thousands of pilots flying to spain we got 4 together w this bad impression and that's were all this starts...or is it actually true...but then there would be some hard evidence...somewhere. As I did on page 2 there's a link to EUROCONTROL's 2006 performance review and safety is not mentioned to be such an issue. Fair enough the report is not that detailed on that matter but is there any hard evidence?

To all,
no offence but I don't work in Spain and I don't fly there. I've read pilots saying it's good and pilots saying it's bad. Who can I trust? I see plenty f%&·ck ups almost on a daily basis from ANSP's considered to be top notch...or seen as top notch? Maybe they care more about PR than others?

Who knows...I know I don't know for sure. And, hey, yeah sure you got in a tight situation that day or the other...I've seen 'em on my screen plenty and nobody is raising forums for it -for the record haven't been responsible for any incident(nor accident thank you) myself but involved as neighbour sector about 4 times, more or less-. So c0c5 ups happen...we learn from them...we move on to see another day and do our job better. Do they do it in Spain? I would hope so. Again few posters have actually been helpful and positive in trying to identify were all this really comes from -what actually may be the weakest links in the ATC chain-. Thanks to all that people.

C ya around. Safe flying.
A.

[andrijander]

Radar,
what can i say when you wrote:
(
Did you actually see an aircraft land on top of another in the UK[...]It happens all over the world.
[...]
let those being criticised do one of 2 things --- either be a victim (it's someone else's fault, there is no problem, you're all wrong) or take the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution. Which improves the safety of aviation for us all ???
)
A bit contradictory giving a lesson like that and in the same post saying something like "are you sure?well sh1t happens..what can you do...". I'm amazed.
A.

[anotherthing]

Andrijander,

I think you are confused in what PPrune Radar said because of the way the English language works. He was trying to get across the fact that the incident of the A/C 'almost landing on top of another' could actually have been an result of a perfectly legal clearance (a conditional clearance)... this allows the pilot to continue that little bit longer on the approach, which may make a bystander think that an airmiss (airprox) has just occurred.

In the second instance he is saying you can sit on your backside (not you personally) and whinge about things all day long, blaming everyone else, the system etc; or, more productively, you can highlight perceived problems and, if needed, get them fixed (hopefully)

[andrijander]

Right,
so "me no comprende". And intercepting ILS at 70š it's illegal. Forget unsafe and or not the best practice. I see how it works when you turn the tortilla around.
I got the points, thank you, but it is funny how it seems to me the same kind of answer you got from the spanish ATC. In the line of "oh, but surely that didn't happen and if it did it does happen everywhere really...". I don't see how that doesn't fall within comtempting. Then again, I can only take a7eca's word for it and yes it may have been only a misinterpretation of the situation but radar's answer goes nowhere near, and I quote: "take[/ing] the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution".
Now did I "work it" properly for you to "comprender"?
A.

[Airbatic7eca]

The only reason I brought up the incident at EGMC, was to prove that mistakes happen all around the world. To those of you who think the UK ATC system is infallible, believe me its not. Its amazing how most of you criticize the Spanish system, and when something bad is said about the UK system, everyone jumps to make excuses. It’s truly ridiculous.

Yes, one airplane was cleared to land, and moments before another airplane had been cleared to takeoff. No conditional clearance was given to any aircraft. Accident reports show that is has happened all around the world, but I have only seen it with my own two eyes in the UK. Saying that the controller is a reject from another tower is no excuse. STOP MAKING EXCUSES. Why do you think Heathrow has that special lighting system for taxiing aircraft? I can answer that too, because no one is perfect.

Spain has an open reporting system, the same as every country operating under JAR. If you have really encountered a problem in any country, instead of coming on here and bitching like babies, file a report.

RADAR:
Compare the number of operations out of LAX and EGMC. Mathematically, which one do you think is more prone to having an accident? It doesn’t take a genius to answer that. I would hate to see the EGMC controller at Madrid or at Heathrow.

Nobody forces anyone to fly. If I really thought that one airspace was so unsafe that I had to come on PPRUNE to complain about it, I would just not fly into it. Most companies will let you choose your destinations.

[anotherthing]

Airbatic

Heathrow has the lighting because it helps pilots...... which in turn helps the ATCOs and ATSAs. The Lighting Panel Operator can still screw up though!!

No one is jumping to cover up UK shortfalls - Pprune Radra was giving one explanation of why it might have happened. However it seems that this is not the case as from your posts one can assume that you were following evrything that was going on at the airport at the time, and had 100% spatial awareness... not that common in pilots when they have other things on their minds.

This thread has degenerated somewhat - first it was a post with a genuine concern for one persons perceived worries about Spanish ATC, based on their experiences around the world. Then it descended into a bun fight about use of several languages on RT.

If you read the posts carefully, you will find that the only people who are tryin to say that use of several languages on an R/T circuit is not a bad idea, is the very ones who do it!! That to my mind speaks volumes about the quality of the ATCOS/pilots involved.

Andrinjder,

I was merely pointing out that you may have misinterpreted what was being said - no reason to get in a strop about it. The English language is one of the most peculiar when it comes to nuance and double meanings of phrases etc. To a non native English speaker, this can sometime be confusing - hell the Yanks don't even understand 'British' English all the time!

As for Pprune Radar trying to claim it was not an incident and that it could not happen in Britain, he was merely pointing out another expalanation as to what could have been occuring - however we now know that Airbatic was 100% fully up to speed with the traffic situation and all the calls that were happening at the time... no mean feat for a pilot who has other things to do, but very commendable.

The answers we got from some of the members of Spanish ATC regarding the use of multiple languages on the R/T were downright scary and dangerous. If they and others cannot see how this practice can only increase the chances of an incident, they are in the wrong job. Hell if the EGMC controller had started speaking in a different language, the chances are that Airbatic would not have managed to keep a full and therefore safe menatl picture

[andrijander]

Anotherthing,
anybody may misinterpret anytime what's being said. Now I didn't this time. Maybe you have misinterpreted what's being said. I still think, after reading it four times, that I understand it pretty clearly. Perhaps, instead of implying that when it is not the case, you could actually read the posts and give it some thought before saying something like that.
If it happens in spain is bad...if it happens in UK let's give it some reasonable doubt. Double standards anybody? And hey, I'm not bashing but just saying all instances should be treated equally. I have so far.
Spanish is remarcable for the amount of double meaning you may get. Hell, half our humor is based on it. Speaking in silver, you didn't sell me the bike for the ones that may know of what I'm talking about. (Hablando en plata, no me has vendido la moto para los que sepan de que hablo). And we actually don't drop silver when we open our mouth and there's no real bike for sell or this would be called ebay.
I understand what radar said, no need to explain. Yes he was trying to give it some explanation, same as the spaniards have been trying to do with the incidents you (plural you) exposed. But this time it is not called "excuses" but "explanation". Gimme a break. You pick someone else for bullfighting next time, mate, I ain't biting it. (para entendidos).
Also remarcable how you mention so much that a7eca was actually listening the freq, and I quote :" had 100% spatial awareness... not that common in pilots when they have other things on their minds."; "however we now know that Airbatic was 100% fully up to speed with the traffic situation and all the calls that were happening at the time... no mean feat for a pilot who has other things to do, but very commendable."
I thought the whole point of 1 language was actually that pilot's may follow it. I understand from your words you only find it commendable to do that. What are you implying here? So far nobody has tried to even imply pilot's not listening/hearing -which also happens for many varied reasons-.
A.
PD: none of the spanish in this post is offensive, just a show of how double "mean" can spanish be.

[Mach trim]

A link in the chain

Airbatic 7eca,

" If you have really encountered a problem in any country, instead of coming on here and bitching like babies, file a report "

When you have the risk of an air ground collision (see previous link Barcelona/atc )

you are addressing a real safety concern.

This report was filed among many others.

Could someone confirm if it is true whether Barcelona and Madrid have the highest number of ASRS reports filed (by Easyjet )?

Does your company have a number of ASR reports filed for flights in Spain ?


Read the post from a Spanish controller who admits they are understaffed and there is money problems.

Changes need to be made in the Spanish ATC system or there will be an incident.

As I said before the chain is as strong as it's weakest link.

Clearly the warning flags are there.

Hell, what do I know but I have been based out of for over 2 and a half years out of Barcelona. I was shocked with the ATC when I first came here.

Would appreciate more insight from a Madrid/Bcn controller ?
I for one would like to get to the heart of the matter.

It is just you expect west European standards and many times you do not get it.

[Flintstone]

Originally Posted by Airbatic7eca

If I really thought that one airspace was so unsafe that I had to come on PPRUNE to complain about it, I would just not fly into it. Most companies will let you choose your destinations

Funniest thing I've ever read. "Hello? Chief Pilot? I'm not coming to work today as I don't like flying to XXXX".

Mind you. When you've flown to "....more countries than 98% of people on PPRuNe..." I suppose you can afford to pick and choose

[ALTSEL]

ATC infrastructure

Spain - main income = Tourists

Tourists = mode of access = Aviation

area of least investment = ATC infrastructure i.e ILS, RADAR, DME, PAPI & ATIS.


One day it will all meet up. Fact.

Please join the rest of Europe. For our sake.

[tubby linton]

They certainly were losing the plot this morning in PMI.There was a small line of weather at ADX,(RW06L in use).We were asked to hold at ADX,which we declined due to the weather.Aircraft were going everywhere even though the weather was nowhere near the centerline for 06L and was cavok to the south!The obvious plan was to put everybody on a downwind to clear the weather and then turn around the back of it onto the localiser,or vector all traffic to the south of the field.These courses of action seemed to be beyond the capabilities of the approach controller however!

[Caudillo]

Tubby - why didn't you jump in your awacs and take charge?

[anotherthing]

Andrijander,

Fair enough, if you understand the English all I was saying was that Pprune Radar was giving an explanation as to what might have been going on, but we shall put that aside as you and I could talk semantics all night.

However, it does seem that English irony slipped by you in my last post regarding situational awareness... i was insinuating that Airbatic may not have really known exactly what was going on, despite the inference in his post that he did.

If you use only one language it increases Pilots and controllers and ground staffs situational awareness - FACT.

If you use more than one language, you are increasing the likelihood of an incident occurring because people are not being given the chance to hear everything in a common language - FACT.

Pilots never have 100% situational awareness in the context of what is happening around them - FACT.

Even the very best pilots tune out calls that do not involve them because it is impossible to assimilate all the information, keep a 100% picture going in your head, and fly the aircraft - FACT.

Therefore my post about the situational awareness of Airbatic being commendable was actually tongue in cheek, because I can guarantee you 100%, Airbatic did not have total situational awareness of what was happening at the airfield, unless he was controlling the aircraft at the aerodrome.

When it comes to the 'bigger picture', the person who is going to have the closest thing to 100% situational awareness is the TCO - but even then it is never 100% because there may be things happening in cockpits that he may not be aware of.

my bold staements regarding pilots and crews lack of 100% understanding comes from my many years as an ATCO, which were preceded by many years flying for the military in far less sophisticated aircraft than todays airliners, but in far more strenuous conditions.... we had to maintain a far higher degree of situational awareness than is needed by pilots in constant communication with ATC in their fly by wire glass cockpits, if our situational awareness was not good enough, we got weeded out in training, but even military pilots whoare at the top of their game cannot, hand on heart, claim to maintain 100% situational awareness in a busy environment... guess what? That's a FACT too!

[andrijander]

impressed...not

Anotherthing,
keep explaining to me all you want. I don't need it but thank you. Just re-read your posts and think. You wanna call it a draw but I can't believe, still, how you keep calling that a "possible explanation" from somebody who wasn't even there. It is the same reaction you guys acuse the spanish to have. That just throws your whole case down the drain. Plain and simple.
I don't need to score against anybody any points on how much english I understand or not. This is not school and you are not my teacher so stop suggesting anything about my english level. I did understand you and that's why I remarqued on you suggestion that perhaps a7eca wasn't fully100% in the loop of what was going on. I just didn't want to acuse you of being so blatantly arrogant. I guess I have no other choice now but to say it : how is it that you haven't given any margin for doubt in the other posts when it goes down to situations in spain and you do on the very first one that is mentioned happening in the uk? Maybe an ex RAF has too much pride?
-->for the mods please keep in mind it has been posted before spanish atc'ers may have had too much pride and that was a reason for things being that bad and not improving. The ball is back in your roof.<--
As I said a couple of posts earlier that's as far as I'll go. But I think I have pretty clear what's up now. Good'ole'bashing. No proof and when the tide turns so do the arguments. Well, I hate double standards. You enjoy them all you want
A.

Pd: thanks also for your cv but you could be, for all I care, the cleaning guy...as long as you're right that's all I need to know. But that's achieved by arguing not by getting the upper ground with tricks.

[411A]

Sadly, Spain does indeed have its problems, and it has been thus for the very many years I have passed that way.
It would appear that each new generation of younger pilots have had dissatisfaction with Spanish ATC, but the fact remains that it ain't gonna improve anytime soon, so get used to it.
LHR?
Well lets see, ATIS says 8km, yet listening on ground control while in the LOGAN hold years ago, the airport is in the process of going to LVP.
Nothing from the approach controller, nor anyone else for that matter.
They still insist that minimal delay expected.
Imagine that.

I personally believe that throwing stones at Spanish ATC when LHR can't get it right on some occasions, is nonsense...go with the flow, folks.
That, quite frankly is what you are paid the big bucks for...

Or, would you disagree?
Answers on a postcard....

[tubby linton]

@Caudillo

"Tubby - why didn't you jump in your awacs and take charge?"

I could have probably done a better job!It didn't help that almost half PMI's transmissions were in Spanish !