Spanish ATC

[aviaticus]

It id the same in France, Italy, Russia...

You are right. These are the Countries that were the founders of ICAO recomendations, which JAA took as the platform at which to continue upgrading the safety rules. I am flying actively, almost every day through their airspace and what can I say... It is at very edge of safe flying.

[ATC Watcher]

Since this has tuned out to become another language thread , my usual pinch of salt on the wound :

Mister slot :

Despite it being legal, multi-lingual R/T is simply dangerous and has cost lives. .

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

Even States that did not have it, had to implement it on this very argument ( e.g Canada)

Sonnendec :
I really admire your courrage here .

Just a friendly correction when you said :

The german controller is applying the international rules, since german is NOT an ICAO language. Spanish controllers are applying the international rules because spanish IS an ICAO language and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish.

The fact to be an ICAO language or not has nothing to do with this. The legal basis to use national language on the R/T is an ICAO convention article which says that the language to be used on the R/T is the language of the Country overflown , and in absence of agreement, English shall be used or made available (i.e though an interpreter ).
Every State can use his national language in addition to English. Most do.

And for info Germany uses German on the R/T at its regional airports .

[haughtney1]

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

OK I'm confused with this comment..........

You are saying multi-lingual ATC is a good thing? or at the very least...not an impediment to situational awareness and flight safety???? or that you don't feel it increases/decreases the chances of an incident based upon its uses and limitations?

Please clarify...

[toro01]

mach trim, what do you exactly mean when you say that "Spanish culture is part of the problem" can you be more specific because that sounds to me vague and general.

1.- What do you know about spanish culture?
2.- Are you a spanish citizen?
3.- Can you speak fluent spanish to be able to understand what people actually mean when they speak?

PD The Spanish armada finished in the eighteen century, the Spanish inquistion finished around that time, I donīt dress as a bullfighter and I have running water and electricity in my house. I however still go to bed late because I love spanish life style(may be millions of brits love it it too, at least in LEMG)

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

I cannot believe I've just read this, especially from someone with such experience.

1) Inex Adria DC9 v BEA Trident: Gradimir Tasic, when he realised what was happening, slipped back into Croat to give instructions to the DC9 - The BEA crew had no idea what was going on. Had they had the situational awareness of hearing what was happening it's possible things could have been different

2) SH360 Runway collision - LFPG. The streamline crew had no idea what was going on, again because of the dual language scenario.

Not many lives? 1 life is 1 too many - how many do you consider acceptable?

[Sonnendec]

Wrong.

Number 1 accident had nothing to do with the language issue.

And there is an essay (iīm looking for it, as soon as i find it iīll post the link here) stating that the most frequent "language problems" are between english-speaking pilots and controllers from different countries... so...

I agree with you, everyone should be british

[Sonnendec]

Oh, by the way: ATC Watcher, thanks a lot for your remarks

[Chilli Monster]

Sonnendec - I never said no.1 was caused by it, just that the outcome could have been different.

Read what is said - not what you think is said.

[E. MORSE]

By the way,

Why is it that almost all of the spanish aviators end their call with the phrase "con autorizado"

It always makes me smile, as if it is possible without "autorizado".

[groc]

Hello E. MORSE,
"almost all of the spanish aviators end their call with the phrase 'como autorizado' "
Well, this is not true. As the "others", they use to report the full clearance.
Cheers.

[Sonnendec]

Well, groc, it depends. In Canarias itīs very usual.

"Como autorizado" means "as cleared".

[groc]

[Sonnendec]

What donīt you understand?

[Doctor Cruces]

Come to the thread late, so apologies.

I back up Flying Torqwrench's insistance that Spanish Aircrew get preference.

We were in Alicante some years ago and received an hour delay when we called for clearance. The first officer, from a Spanish speaking nation, got on the horn to ask the reason why (in Spanish of course) and we got an immediate clearance to push and start.

He therefore, is correct. It may not happen always but it does happen.

Doc C.

[Sonnendec]

Doctor Cruces,
As long as i know, as i see and as i work, it DOESNīT happen. I canīt tell about "years ago". But not now.
And the example is in your own post: "from a spanish-speaking nation". So... i assume he WASNīT spanish........ now we give preference to anyone who can speak spanish? please...
Best regards.

[ATC Watcher]

haughtney1 :

You are saying multi-lingual ATC is a good thing? or at the very least...not an impediment to situational awareness and flight safety???? or that you don't feel it increases/decreases the chances of an incident based upon its uses and limitations?

Please clarify...

I see that my English is not that clear :

1- I am definitively not for multi lingual ATC. I believe that in airspace where there is multinational IFR operations only English Phraseology should be used.
2. It is indeed an impediment to situation awareness, espacially in airports ground operations..
3. But he current statistics do not support that using multi language in R/T is unsafe. And that is the problem, if you want to change the current policy.

Is it clearer now ?

Unless you can prove with hard facts, not impressions , that it is unsafe, you are not going to change the current political stalemate in ICAO.
Because there are many advantages for a State or an ATC service Provider to operate and teach its employees ( pilots and controllers ) in their national language. It is not per se nationalism, it is more an economic issue.

Chili Monster :

1) Inex Adria DC9 v BEA Trident: Gradimir Tasic, when he realised what was happening, slipped back into Croat to give instructions to the DC9 - The BEA crew had no idea what was going on. Had they had the situational awareness of hearing what was happening it's possible things could have been different

2) SH360 Runway collision - LFPG. The streamline crew had no idea what was going on, again because of the dual language scenario.

Not many lives? 1 life is 1 too many - how many do you consider acceptable?

Old rumours die hard. The reports of those 2 accidents are availbale on the net, I suggest you read them again , especially the CVR transcripts to see that what you say is not completely correct.

1) Zagreb : the remark in Serbo Croat was refering to " the level you are passing now ". the initial call by the DC9 (estimating ZAG at same time as the HS21 ) that could have raised situation awareness to the BEA crew, was done in English. See the HS21 CVR to see what the crew was discussing at the time.
Using Serbo croat instead of English in the last seconds was definitively not a cause, nor a contributing factor in this accident.

2) On the Shorts in CDG, there it is different: The inquiry identified 3 causes for the accident : 1) the controller had a wrong perception of where the aircrfat were. 2) the way ATC worked then it made it impossible to detect errors made and 3) the Shorts crew did not quiery where the number 1 was upon accepting the conditional clearance.
The inquiry board then listed 6 contribution factors, and indeed one is about the use of 2 languages in R/T.

There might be 3 of 4 accidents in the ICAO database where dual R/T can be listed as a contribution factor. There is none ( as far as I know) listing it as the primary cause.. The proponents of keeping the curent situation are using those facts not to change anything.

As to how many lives do I consider acceptable, none of course. But If I had unlimited ressources and I was allowed 3 wishes in aviation,I would probably use them solving other priorities that are claiming far more lives than Spanish on the R/T.

[haughtney1]

Thanks ATC watcher for the clarification....
I can't help thinking however (coloured by my own experience) that we pilots do our very best to mitigate against the problems that ATC impose (particularly the Spanish) and with skill and cunning, get the job done in a safe and efficient manner.
Sonnendec and his colleagues can protest all they like regarding the quality of service offered, the preferential treatment of certain local operators, and the liberal use of language that isn't widely understood........the fact remains however, that myself and a large majority of my colleagues place very little faith in a system and individuals who are supposed to improve flight safety, rather than, as the anecdotal evidence suggests on this thread..degrade it.

[tolgab]

Before I go ahead, please keep in mind that this is personal opinion.

First the LANGUAGE:

I believe there is a reason why spanish is an ICAO language and controllers have to use it if pilots call in spanish.

AFAIK foreign language has been a problem in spain since Franco times. Few could learn foreign language and they opted for french mostly. (probably cause they are neighbours and easier to learn for a spaniard). English wasn't much appreciated back then as I understand, because the only relation they had with the british involved Gibraltar!

If you wanted to have pilots in spain and wanted them to get to learn english as well, you had trouble. Who will teach them the english. English is picking up only just now, with the current generation. Why should you speak in English in your own airspace anyhow? Only those that flew international needed the international radio operators certificate.

There are still many local pilots who dont speak English, not a single word... So the controllers are obliged to respond in spanish to those pilots who make the first call in spanish.

The COMPETENCY;
I do not know the systems at spanish ATC, how advanced or user friendly they are, but don't judge an ATC before having that information. You all speak about how good the ATC is in N.Europe, do you also know how advanced their systems are and how much the systems support the controllers? If we can work such high traffic over here it is not only because we are good, probably the best, but also how much the system helps us.

Also the rules, the changes in the rules and conditions, amount of controllers and work hours per controllers, capacity... there are heck a lot of things behind..

Things probably can and will improve in spain, afaik they are having huge increases in amount of traffic, and they are trying to adopt as good as they can.

[threemiles]

To assist Sonnendec little to nothing that was complained about here is to be noted in the Canarias TMA

Not being, but speaking both Spanish and English I note:
- preference to a Binter, never heard, they line up behind you as they should
- winds calm is not a meteorological phenomena known there
- loss of ground clearance, not a concern, most vectors go over sea and around the islands or ground contact is required for directs
- English is used by some controllers when traffic is conflicting in ACC or on Las Palmas final director when traffic is high, could be much more, though

A few remarks:
- vectors sometimes appear to be very long especially to TS 08 from the west, when no traffic around plus early speed control, also separation up to 10 NM+ regularily noted (maybe a training airport?)
- what concerns me are "final vectors" (which is a dog leg in another terminology) heading towards the mountains and without ILS clearance. E.g. on GC 03L you get a 345 or 360 heading and the ILS clearance comes not before turning to final yourself. At night, if the ILS fails or stick mic occurs...
- on downwind to 03L you are never sure whether a visual is an option by ATC or not. Therefore sometimes you come in too high to make it a visual inside LPC although all Binters preceeding do it (and they are fast) and you are the only one riding the ILS from 13 miles out, sometimes you are planned to be down to 2500 abeam the field but are number 5 on approach

3NM

[Mach trim]

Toros and Spanish ATC

Toro, I like your name.Classic post.

" The Spanish armada finished in the eighteen century, the Spanish inquistion finished around that time, I donīt dress as a bullfighter and I have running water and electricity in my house. I however still go to bed late because I love spanish life style(may be millions of brits love it it too, at least in LEMG) "
I am surprised that you do not dress up as a bullfighter.
Glad to hear you have running water in your house.

Ok let me extrapolate on Spanish culture

The beauty of it is your reaction to my post has in fact in part answered your own question about what Spanish culture has to do with it. Think about it.
All cultures have their strengths and weaknessess.
We
As the Germans can be too structured but are well organized, and may not be flexible.
The Spanish are a very proud people. Do you agree ?
Can this pride get in the way of efficient ATC ?
Can the Spanish or Italian machismo get in the way of improving ATC like by using foreigners (who may have a better ATC system.) ?

Culturally Autocratic leadership is a negative behaviour and perhaps it is inherent in the system ?

The Spanish controllers do not have the competiveness or one upmanship in dealing with pilots as we find in others countries. This I like.


Surprisingly in the Professor Hofstede cross-cultural study done over 50 countries Spain ranked high 86 in the uncertainty avoidance area as a culture.
Uncertainty avoidance is how well a culture deals with novelty and ambiguity.

As for your questions. You may be a wind up artist if not....

1.- What do you know about spanish culture?
What does this have to do with Spanish ATC ? What is your point ?

2.- Are you a spanish citizen? Why do you ask ?
What does this matter, I could be.
I have been a Spanish resident for over 6 years and married to a Spanish woman.

3.- Can you speak fluent spanish to be able to understand what people actually mean when they speak?
I speak Spanish fluently and a little Catalan as well.