Spanish ATC
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Cultural Background...
I agree with JToledo, I think cultural background has a lot to do in this topic .
Coming from a (spanish-speaking) Latin America Country, living at the moment in Spain and after living in USA, UAE, UK and Germany among others I realized that it can be guessed some common cultural-factors in the spanish-speaking countries that I would like to share it in this forum:
*- Lack of competitiveness felling: Unfortunately the tendency is to compete with someone else by pushing this person out of the way instead of improving one self (to be more competitive) therefore, this cause:
*- Lack of feeling to improve one self: Why should I do it better if there wont be any difference for my own benefits?
*- Comfortable feeling, is like getting fat, if you do not stop early it becomes worse and worse. And you wont stop because you are very confortable eating like a pig.
And I can share you more common factors that would make you realize why our culture takes longer to be adapted in a competitive environment but would make my post too boring...
Saludos,
CuPa.-
Coming from a (spanish-speaking) Latin America Country, living at the moment in Spain and after living in USA, UAE, UK and Germany among others I realized that it can be guessed some common cultural-factors in the spanish-speaking countries that I would like to share it in this forum:
*- Lack of competitiveness felling: Unfortunately the tendency is to compete with someone else by pushing this person out of the way instead of improving one self (to be more competitive) therefore, this cause:
*- Lack of feeling to improve one self: Why should I do it better if there wont be any difference for my own benefits?
*- Comfortable feeling, is like getting fat, if you do not stop early it becomes worse and worse. And you wont stop because you are very confortable eating like a pig.
And I can share you more common factors that would make you realize why our culture takes longer to be adapted in a competitive environment but would make my post too boring...
Saludos,
CuPa.-
(I would like to cause no offence by sharing my opinions, if by any chance you think I writing something unappropiate or off-topic please contact me via PM's since I do not want to take this forum out of the main topic)
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Standard scenario anywhere in Spain:
Ryr: Ryanair 123, FL 360, direct Alicante, request descent
Atc: Ryanair, muy buenas, proceed Alicante, then Ditre next.
Ryr: Alicante, then Ditre, request descent, Ryanair 123.
Atc: ....
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: ...
Atc: Eh, Ryanair (lots of commotion in the background), cleared down level 250.
Ryr: Descend FL 250, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Which RWY can we expect (no ATIS), Ryr 123?
Atc: Ryanair, eh at the moment 05 ...
Ryr: Roger, rwy 05 in use, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Ryr 123 FL 250, standing by for lower (keeping us high..),
and please confirm arrival.
Atc: Roger...eh, proceed Ditre, then 240, down level 160.
Ryr: Descending FL 160, confirm HDG 240 after Ditre.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: (Talking to others)
Ryr: Ryr 123, overhead Ditre, turning right HDG 240.
Atc: Roger, proceed Alton.
Ryr: Confirm waypoint, not in our routing, Ryr 123.
Atc: ...HDG 250, Ryanair 123.
Ryr: Roger, HDG 250, Ryr 123.
Atc: Ryr 123, RWY 23 now, descend level 70, transition level 70, Qnh 1005.
Ryr: Confirm descend FL 70 for Ryr 123?
Atc: Confirm
Ryr: (Now busy setting up for opposite) Can you confirm your Radar Minimums, according to our charts it's 8400 in this sector.
Atc: ??? Eh, roger...
Ryr: We're IMC here, confirm your...disregard visual with the field now (phew)
Atc: Ryanair, turn left 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR 23.
Ryr: Left HDG 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR app 23.
Ryr: Ryr 123, established VOR app 23.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Ryr 123, ESTABLISHED VOR 23, DO YOU WANT US TO CALL TOWER?
Atc: zzzz
Ryr: Tower, Ryr 123, inbound on the VOR 23, 5 miles.
Atc: Continue, Ryanair
Ryr: Continue, Ryr 123.
Ryr: ("TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC")Ryr 123, we've got traffic 11 o' clock, slightly
below.
Atc: Roger, continue...(habla, habla, translated: VFR traffic: We have an inbound Ryanair, go somewhere, eh North...NOW)
Atc: Ryanair, clear to land.
Ryr: Cleared to land RWY 23, Ryr 123.
Sounds familiar?
Ryr: Ryanair 123, FL 360, direct Alicante, request descent
Atc: Ryanair, muy buenas, proceed Alicante, then Ditre next.
Ryr: Alicante, then Ditre, request descent, Ryanair 123.
Atc: ....
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: ...
Atc: Eh, Ryanair (lots of commotion in the background), cleared down level 250.
Ryr: Descend FL 250, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Which RWY can we expect (no ATIS), Ryr 123?
Atc: Ryanair, eh at the moment 05 ...
Ryr: Roger, rwy 05 in use, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Ryr 123 FL 250, standing by for lower (keeping us high..),
and please confirm arrival.
Atc: Roger...eh, proceed Ditre, then 240, down level 160.
Ryr: Descending FL 160, confirm HDG 240 after Ditre.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: (Talking to others)
Ryr: Ryr 123, overhead Ditre, turning right HDG 240.
Atc: Roger, proceed Alton.
Ryr: Confirm waypoint, not in our routing, Ryr 123.
Atc: ...HDG 250, Ryanair 123.
Ryr: Roger, HDG 250, Ryr 123.
Atc: Ryr 123, RWY 23 now, descend level 70, transition level 70, Qnh 1005.
Ryr: Confirm descend FL 70 for Ryr 123?
Atc: Confirm
Ryr: (Now busy setting up for opposite) Can you confirm your Radar Minimums, according to our charts it's 8400 in this sector.
Atc: ??? Eh, roger...
Ryr: We're IMC here, confirm your...disregard visual with the field now (phew)
Atc: Ryanair, turn left 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR 23.
Ryr: Left HDG 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR app 23.
Ryr: Ryr 123, established VOR app 23.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Ryr 123, ESTABLISHED VOR 23, DO YOU WANT US TO CALL TOWER?
Atc: zzzz
Ryr: Tower, Ryr 123, inbound on the VOR 23, 5 miles.
Atc: Continue, Ryanair
Ryr: Continue, Ryr 123.
Ryr: ("TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC")Ryr 123, we've got traffic 11 o' clock, slightly
below.
Atc: Roger, continue...(habla, habla, translated: VFR traffic: We have an inbound Ryanair, go somewhere, eh North...NOW)
Atc: Ryanair, clear to land.
Ryr: Cleared to land RWY 23, Ryr 123.
Sounds familiar?
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Bomber harris >> "Everyother ATC in northern eulope from east to west (poland to ireland) is able to co-ordinate this."
I guess your not a regular in posnan then
Hey whereEVER you fly even on you home turf your going to have issues with RT its just the nature of the beast. I am guilty i guess for calling for push and start with cargo door still open or stepping on people, I recognise the fact i make mistakes and I of course notice others mistakes.
It is hard not to sit on the fence from my experience of spain,,, I have been cut up in BCL and AGP and I also have been turned in ahead of others. I do try and question RT if there is something that raises a brow and have found generally a constructive response.
As with your colleague next to you in the flightdeck, each and everyone has their own personalties and characters, and mix a little culture also and you get a mixed bag of experiences some good some bad depending on the day that individual is having.
The french/spanish speaking on freq must be addressed, but as with anything in aviation history it will take a major accident to kick start any serious move forward.
Until then its volume knob up and binoculars at the standby on crossing over to the spanish.
I have had experiences like RYR-738_JOCKEY in spain/Italy/poland/germany/france/uk etc etc,,, It just so happens I spend alot of my time in spain right now so thats where it happens to me most right now.
I guess your not a regular in posnan then
Hey whereEVER you fly even on you home turf your going to have issues with RT its just the nature of the beast. I am guilty i guess for calling for push and start with cargo door still open or stepping on people, I recognise the fact i make mistakes and I of course notice others mistakes.
It is hard not to sit on the fence from my experience of spain,,, I have been cut up in BCL and AGP and I also have been turned in ahead of others. I do try and question RT if there is something that raises a brow and have found generally a constructive response.
As with your colleague next to you in the flightdeck, each and everyone has their own personalties and characters, and mix a little culture also and you get a mixed bag of experiences some good some bad depending on the day that individual is having.
The french/spanish speaking on freq must be addressed, but as with anything in aviation history it will take a major accident to kick start any serious move forward.
Until then its volume knob up and binoculars at the standby on crossing over to the spanish.
I have had experiences like RYR-738_JOCKEY in spain/Italy/poland/germany/france/uk etc etc,,, It just so happens I spend alot of my time in spain right now so thats where it happens to me most right now.
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RYR: BARCELONA, RYR123 TO MLA FL370
ATC: RYR123, BARCELONA, IDENTIFIED FL370, PROCEED MLA AND EXPECT RWY05 INITIALLY
RYR: TO MLA AND EXPECTING 05, RYR123
...
RYR: RYR123, REQUEST
ATC: RYR123, GO AHEAD
RYR: DO YOU HAVE THE LATEST WEATHER OF LELC, RYR123?
ATC: RYR123, I'LL CALL YOU
...
ATC: RYR123, READY TO COPY THE WEATHER?
...
ATC: RYR123, SAURA FL320 OR BELOW, DESCEND FL310
RYR: DESCEND FL310, FL320 OR BELOW BY SAURA, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123, CONTACT BARCELONA 129.525, BYE
RYR: BARCELONA 129,525, BYE, RYR123
...
RYR: BARCELONA, RYR123 DESCENDIG FL310
ATC: RYR123, IDENTIFIED, DESCEND FL250
RYR: DESCEND FL250, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123 CONTACT VALENCIA 119.075, BYE
RYR: VALENCIA 119.075, BYE, RYR123
...
And, believe me, this is as real as standard.
Let me add that LELC, Murcia - San Javier, has military control.
Cheers.
ATC: RYR123, BARCELONA, IDENTIFIED FL370, PROCEED MLA AND EXPECT RWY05 INITIALLY
RYR: TO MLA AND EXPECTING 05, RYR123
...
RYR: RYR123, REQUEST
ATC: RYR123, GO AHEAD
RYR: DO YOU HAVE THE LATEST WEATHER OF LELC, RYR123?
ATC: RYR123, I'LL CALL YOU
...
ATC: RYR123, READY TO COPY THE WEATHER?
...
ATC: RYR123, SAURA FL320 OR BELOW, DESCEND FL310
RYR: DESCEND FL310, FL320 OR BELOW BY SAURA, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123, CONTACT BARCELONA 129.525, BYE
RYR: BARCELONA 129,525, BYE, RYR123
...
RYR: BARCELONA, RYR123 DESCENDIG FL310
ATC: RYR123, IDENTIFIED, DESCEND FL250
RYR: DESCEND FL250, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123 CONTACT VALENCIA 119.075, BYE
RYR: VALENCIA 119.075, BYE, RYR123
...
And, believe me, this is as real as standard.
Let me add that LELC, Murcia - San Javier, has military control.
Cheers.
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Well, once again, having just come back from a flight to Spain, I really don't understand what all the fuss and criticism is about.
Sure, people make mistakes and yes, it is sometimes a bit different than northern Europe, but I really think that there is a genuine effort to slowly increase the use of English. With more and more foreign pilots joining Spanish low cost airlines, this trend will only continue to grow.
Small example, today in Spain, the ground controller told a Spanair MD80 in English to "give way to an easyJet" in order to let us know at the same time that the Spanair would give way. Something like this would have been unheard of a few years ago, but the Spanair acknowledged in English and the problem was solved without wasting additional radio calls.
Muchas gracias!
Sure, people make mistakes and yes, it is sometimes a bit different than northern Europe, but I really think that there is a genuine effort to slowly increase the use of English. With more and more foreign pilots joining Spanish low cost airlines, this trend will only continue to grow.
Small example, today in Spain, the ground controller told a Spanair MD80 in English to "give way to an easyJet" in order to let us know at the same time that the Spanair would give way. Something like this would have been unheard of a few years ago, but the Spanair acknowledged in English and the problem was solved without wasting additional radio calls.
Muchas gracias!
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Ok. This is for my spanish mates that try to make their point although you dont let them:
Don´t waste your time (i have wasted mine too, i know), this is the forum that we have talked about again and again, let´s just let them talk about how good they are, it´s clear that they don´t care about our point of view. I hope somebody makes a reasonable argument in Pprune other than the ones i´m used to read here. Until then, well... let´s deal with the "air hoolingans" only on the frequency.
Es decir, dejadlo estar, no vale la pena.
Best regards.
Don´t waste your time (i have wasted mine too, i know), this is the forum that we have talked about again and again, let´s just let them talk about how good they are, it´s clear that they don´t care about our point of view. I hope somebody makes a reasonable argument in Pprune other than the ones i´m used to read here. Until then, well... let´s deal with the "air hoolingans" only on the frequency.
Es decir, dejadlo estar, no vale la pena.
Best regards.
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What I don't get is that regardless of how many people are complaining about Spanish ATC, some people are defending them to the bitter end, blaming everyone else. IMHO, I don't feel completely safe in Spain, I don't trust the controllers 100%, and this is only based on my own experience. Do you really think I base my view on what other people may say about this?? I'm not alone about this, lots and lots of my fellow workers share the same view.
When in Spain...
1: I often find myself in a situation asking for confirmation/verification,
WITHOUT getting it.
2: the controller prioritizes according to his subjective perception, rather
than the ACTUAL situation. If I have a problem, I have to speak up in
order to get attention. Litterally using my voice.
3: I don't know what to expect. Changing ARR/SID/RWY...
4: I feel they don't care much about detailed knowledge. For instance, IFR
design parameters, MOCA's/MORA's/MSA's etc. MaÑana
5: ...last but, not least...Bad phraseology/language difficulties
Before you behead me, I don't have English as first language either.
When in Spain...
1: I often find myself in a situation asking for confirmation/verification,
WITHOUT getting it.
2: the controller prioritizes according to his subjective perception, rather
than the ACTUAL situation. If I have a problem, I have to speak up in
order to get attention. Litterally using my voice.
3: I don't know what to expect. Changing ARR/SID/RWY...
4: I feel they don't care much about detailed knowledge. For instance, IFR
design parameters, MOCA's/MORA's/MSA's etc. MaÑana
5: ...last but, not least...Bad phraseology/language difficulties
Before you behead me, I don't have English as first language either.
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Well, what do you do when on vectors get a descent clearance below MSA or MOCA for that matter? The controller is responsible for ensuring that you have obstacle clearance when he's vectoring you, of course you have final responsibility if anything should happen...but, my point is; you have to be able to trust the controller. When I'm in Spain, I feel I can't trust them...100%
This thread is about highlighting an issue, poor atc in Spain. Your point is that there are other places worse than Spain, confirm? Which proves exactly what?
This thread is about highlighting an issue, poor atc in Spain. Your point is that there are other places worse than Spain, confirm? Which proves exactly what?
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Originally Posted by I-FORD
I've also being taught not to rely on ATCOs to decide my flight path, my minima, my obstacle clearance.
It is not their job,
It is not their job,
I-FORD wrote:
What an absolute load of @$#%^&*!!!
When I fly to Lagos, Nigeria, for example, ATC is virtually non-existent. But hey, we are the only airplane in their "TMA" so no big deal. And in Spain/Italy/Greece it is BUSY.
And what's more: Spanish/Italian/Greek ATC centers should compare themselves to other European ATC centers, NOT to some Banana-republic in South America or Africa.
Is Spain a first world country or not?
Try flying in Africa or South America and you'll understand what airmanship and situation awareness really means.
When I fly to Lagos, Nigeria, for example, ATC is virtually non-existent. But hey, we are the only airplane in their "TMA" so no big deal. And in Spain/Italy/Greece it is BUSY.
And what's more: Spanish/Italian/Greek ATC centers should compare themselves to other European ATC centers, NOT to some Banana-republic in South America or Africa.
Is Spain a first world country or not?
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Well...
In SouthAmerican countries and Third World Countries, this problems are sometimes addressed/solved... where in Spain it is not (And Spain belongs to the EU)
Mexico: Read Article below
Argentina: Article in Spanish, the ATC/situation there is disastrous but they decided to train the controllers and to improve their knowledge, mainly in English.
Spain should keep up with the well developed nations by improving instead of comparing itself with 3rd world countries....
CuPa.-
Mexico: (source: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._195229-1.html )
Mexico and Canada have agreed to implement the FAA’s vision for the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NGATS) in concert with the U.S. to create a seamless continent-wide, space-based air traffic management system. At a North American Aviation Trilateral meeting in Quebec last week, all three nations agreed to proceed with implementation of required navigation performance (RNP), RNAV and ADS-B technologies in an integrated way so that procedures and standards will be harmonized over North America. The primary goal of the NextGen technology is to increase system capacity but, in a speech during the meeting, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey said there are also environmental and financial benefits attached.
Argentina: (Source La Nacion newspaper -in Spanish-)
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaci...90909&toi=5256
La crisis de la seguridad aérea
Convenio para capacitar a los controladores
El Ministerio de Defensa llegó a un acuerdo con las universidades de San Martín y de Buenos Aires, que ofrecerán cursos de formación y actualización
El Ministerio de Defensa firmó convenios con las universidades de San Martín (Unsam) y de Buenos Aires (UBA), con lo que ambas colaborarán en la formación y perfeccionamiento de controladores aéreos.
La UBA brindará capacitación en idioma inglés a través del laboratorio de idiomas, de la Facultad de Filosofía y Letras. Esto les permitirá a los controladores alcanzar el nivel de los estándares requeridos a nivel internacional por la Organización Internacional de Aviación Civil.
Mexico: Read Article below
Argentina: Article in Spanish, the ATC/situation there is disastrous but they decided to train the controllers and to improve their knowledge, mainly in English.
Spain should keep up with the well developed nations by improving instead of comparing itself with 3rd world countries....
CuPa.-
Mexico: (source: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._195229-1.html )
Mexico and Canada have agreed to implement the FAA’s vision for the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NGATS) in concert with the U.S. to create a seamless continent-wide, space-based air traffic management system. At a North American Aviation Trilateral meeting in Quebec last week, all three nations agreed to proceed with implementation of required navigation performance (RNP), RNAV and ADS-B technologies in an integrated way so that procedures and standards will be harmonized over North America. The primary goal of the NextGen technology is to increase system capacity but, in a speech during the meeting, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey said there are also environmental and financial benefits attached.
Argentina: (Source La Nacion newspaper -in Spanish-)
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaci...90909&toi=5256
La crisis de la seguridad aérea
Convenio para capacitar a los controladores
El Ministerio de Defensa llegó a un acuerdo con las universidades de San Martín y de Buenos Aires, que ofrecerán cursos de formación y actualización
El Ministerio de Defensa firmó convenios con las universidades de San Martín (Unsam) y de Buenos Aires (UBA), con lo que ambas colaborarán en la formación y perfeccionamiento de controladores aéreos.
La UBA brindará capacitación en idioma inglés a través del laboratorio de idiomas, de la Facultad de Filosofía y Letras. Esto les permitirá a los controladores alcanzar el nivel de los estándares requeridos a nivel internacional por la Organización Internacional de Aviación Civil.
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Complacency??¿??
It has been YOU, folks, the ones comparing us with those countries. No spanish ATCO would say anything like that.
It´s amazing, you know everything about air traffic control, do you know also about genetic engineering? maybe they could use some lessons too.
I´m used to work with professional pilots, it´s a drag we don´t have the smartest ones around here.
Best regards.
It has been YOU, folks, the ones comparing us with those countries. No spanish ATCO would say anything like that.
It´s amazing, you know everything about air traffic control, do you know also about genetic engineering? maybe they could use some lessons too.
I´m used to work with professional pilots, it´s a drag we don´t have the smartest ones around here.
Best regards.
Sonnendec,
Its the people who run ATC that are complacent. The controllers can only do as good as their system or training allow. In the past when I have submitted an Air Safety Report about air traffic control related incidents, the chances of a reply are zero. Believe me I would rather not have to complain. The problem of people ignoring the warning signs are all too evident..... an example of this is running in the courts as we debate this.
Its the people who run ATC that are complacent. The controllers can only do as good as their system or training allow. In the past when I have submitted an Air Safety Report about air traffic control related incidents, the chances of a reply are zero. Believe me I would rather not have to complain. The problem of people ignoring the warning signs are all too evident..... an example of this is running in the courts as we debate this.
One thing is for sure, some of these observations are not new.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...6618&highlight
Sonnendec do you know PakoSpain by any chance?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...6618&highlight
Sonnendec do you know PakoSpain by any chance?
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Right way up,
I agree with you about the safety reports, as i said the bureaucracy in Spain is sooooo slow that most of the time you don´t even get an answer from the authorities.
The thing is that i was raised in the believe that if you don´t really know about something, better not talk about it. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot your planes (although i could say a lot of things about, for example, british pilots) because i have the biggest respect for the proffesionals from the other side of the frequency. And some of your colleagues don´t show any respect for us in this forum. And that´s something that has to do with education and not with air safety.
We are making quite an effort in the present improving procedures, fighting against very old regulations to make your life easier in the air, we are developing a plan of english improvement for those who are still (very few really) weak on that subject to meet the international standard, operational english (level 4) -remember, this is not a bar, it´s OPERATIONAL english-, a lot of controllers give their time trying to figure out the best way of drawing the new Terminal Areas so that we can raise our capacities for the major airports without HAVING TO be "creative" making secuences from zero... well, some of you could ask before insulting us or before saying that nothing is being done to improve our standards (which are already very high, it´s my opinion).
Now, keep on the bashing...
Best regards.
I agree with you about the safety reports, as i said the bureaucracy in Spain is sooooo slow that most of the time you don´t even get an answer from the authorities.
The thing is that i was raised in the believe that if you don´t really know about something, better not talk about it. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot your planes (although i could say a lot of things about, for example, british pilots) because i have the biggest respect for the proffesionals from the other side of the frequency. And some of your colleagues don´t show any respect for us in this forum. And that´s something that has to do with education and not with air safety.
We are making quite an effort in the present improving procedures, fighting against very old regulations to make your life easier in the air, we are developing a plan of english improvement for those who are still (very few really) weak on that subject to meet the international standard, operational english (level 4) -remember, this is not a bar, it´s OPERATIONAL english-, a lot of controllers give their time trying to figure out the best way of drawing the new Terminal Areas so that we can raise our capacities for the major airports without HAVING TO be "creative" making secuences from zero... well, some of you could ask before insulting us or before saying that nothing is being done to improve our standards (which are already very high, it´s my opinion).
Now, keep on the bashing...
Best regards.
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John Boeman,
Well, Paco is a retired controller from Malaga, i think i had the chance to meet him time ago, but i´m not really sure right now that it was the same guy.
I´m sure i could easily find him if you want anything with him, just say so.
Well, Paco is a retired controller from Malaga, i think i had the chance to meet him time ago, but i´m not really sure right now that it was the same guy.
I´m sure i could easily find him if you want anything with him, just say so.