Spanish ATC
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Lets get a few things straight here:
1/ there is no such thing as global warming. it's just a small cyclical temperature anomoly
2/ saddams weapons of mass destruction are really well hidden
3/ there is nothing wrong with spanish atc
4/ oh yeah...jordans t1ts are real
The comment made about the first CRM courses says it all....those who really need it don't participate because its a waste of time!!
How can someone read the barrage of SPECIFIC as well as general complaints and then say silly things like "does any have any proof" or "tell me something specific". Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom......
1/ there is no such thing as global warming. it's just a small cyclical temperature anomoly
2/ saddams weapons of mass destruction are really well hidden
3/ there is nothing wrong with spanish atc
4/ oh yeah...jordans t1ts are real
The comment made about the first CRM courses says it all....those who really need it don't participate because its a waste of time!!
How can someone read the barrage of SPECIFIC as well as general complaints and then say silly things like "does any have any proof" or "tell me something specific". Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom......
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I'm truely amazed how most native english pilots react on the fact that alot of spanish/foreign controllers don't speak english as fluently as they would like to see.
Especially since most english native speakers have never learned another language themselves. How can you judge someone on not being able to speak english fluently if you have never learned another language yourself?
Just imagine ICOA had determined that spanish should be the language used for r/t. You guys would all have lots of problems speaking fluent spanish/french/any other foreign language!!!
And as soon as you would fly into UK airspace, you would start talking english.
It is just human nature! It doesn't mean your not trying your best, its just easier since you don't have to translate everything you say.
Offcourse it would be much safer if everybody would speak in the same language over the radio! But you should show some more respect to the foreigners who go to the trouble of learning english!
Especially since most english native speakers have never learned another language themselves. How can you judge someone on not being able to speak english fluently if you have never learned another language yourself?
Just imagine ICOA had determined that spanish should be the language used for r/t. You guys would all have lots of problems speaking fluent spanish/french/any other foreign language!!!
And as soon as you would fly into UK airspace, you would start talking english.
It is just human nature! It doesn't mean your not trying your best, its just easier since you don't have to translate everything you say.
Offcourse it would be much safer if everybody would speak in the same language over the radio! But you should show some more respect to the foreigners who go to the trouble of learning english!
Last edited by flash2002; 10th Jun 2007 at 12:31. Reason: spelling
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flash2002,
You forget to mention that a fair share of "native English speakers" think they speak English...... But some regional accents can be worse than a "foreigner" who often at least tries to speak comprehensible English.
You forget to mention that a fair share of "native English speakers" think they speak English...... But some regional accents can be worse than a "foreigner" who often at least tries to speak comprehensible English.
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I would like to think that if ICAO did suddenly decide to change to Spanish that UK pilots would make a real effort to learn it. Many probably wouldn't but in that case they would be just as up for criticism as Spanish ATC is now. No matter what you believe about the fairness or difficulty of learning other languages the basic truth that a common R/T language is safer than many different ones remains the same.
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Offcourse UK pilots would try to learn, and most would never realise a proficient level of spanish. At least not proficient enough to talk about non-standard stuff.
I absolutely agree with you that one common language is the safest. But face it...... it will never happen!!!!
At the time the 5 (?) ICAO languages were determined everybody knew that 1language would be safer. But aviation outside the flightdeck/control tower is more about politics then safety anyhow!
And if spanish would become the international language for r/t most UK pilots would start talking in english as soon as they would fly into UK airspace. Especially when there is a need to talk about non-standard stuff.
Thus creating the same problems we have in france and spain at the moment with the english language.
I absolutely agree with you that one common language is the safest. But face it...... it will never happen!!!!
At the time the 5 (?) ICAO languages were determined everybody knew that 1language would be safer. But aviation outside the flightdeck/control tower is more about politics then safety anyhow!
And if spanish would become the international language for r/t most UK pilots would start talking in english as soon as they would fly into UK airspace. Especially when there is a need to talk about non-standard stuff.
Thus creating the same problems we have in france and spain at the moment with the english language.
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After reading the entire thread I also agree on it being a culture issue. I have trained in Portugal for a couple of months. And it takes ages to get something done.
I do think some spanish controllers give priority to spanish carriers, most of them just go with the sequence. But for some reason when controllers and pilots speak spanish on the ground it always seems to be a very long conversation??? Does it take longer to give a clearance in spanish? Or is it just because i'm waiting to step in???
With regard to speed control at BCN, maybe we take the speed control in spain a bit to serious? I know there is another thread running with a UK controller complaining about pilots not adherring to speed control. And I think this is one of the causes for not adherring to speeds.
And about not getting enough directs, just ask most of the times you get it. Don't expect to be told everything. You are flying and you can ask. Its not Eurocontrol.
Flying in the UK isn't always pretty either.
How often doesn't it happen to be cleared for the localizer, but subseqently not being cleared for the glide and eventually finding yourself diving down to capture it????? Especially when it is a nice day with loads of GA traffic, who don't have any R/T discipline! And just start chatting away for almost a minute.
And why was this practice, of clearing for the localizer and glide separately, put into place? Because some pilot f*cked up and descended to the MSA after being cleared approach. This took him out of controlled airspace.
So some wise men in the UK decide, in the interest of safety, to come up with the ridicoulous idea that we see now. Instead of penalizing the airline that f*cked up?!?!
But I guess that's culture as well! And because the spanish culture doesn't match you feel there is a safety issue.
Maybe the UK has gone to faar in trying to eliminate every risk there is. Even to the extent that pilots don't feel they can do a rawdata ILS on a nice day.
I do think some spanish controllers give priority to spanish carriers, most of them just go with the sequence. But for some reason when controllers and pilots speak spanish on the ground it always seems to be a very long conversation??? Does it take longer to give a clearance in spanish? Or is it just because i'm waiting to step in???
With regard to speed control at BCN, maybe we take the speed control in spain a bit to serious? I know there is another thread running with a UK controller complaining about pilots not adherring to speed control. And I think this is one of the causes for not adherring to speeds.
And about not getting enough directs, just ask most of the times you get it. Don't expect to be told everything. You are flying and you can ask. Its not Eurocontrol.
Flying in the UK isn't always pretty either.
How often doesn't it happen to be cleared for the localizer, but subseqently not being cleared for the glide and eventually finding yourself diving down to capture it????? Especially when it is a nice day with loads of GA traffic, who don't have any R/T discipline! And just start chatting away for almost a minute.
And why was this practice, of clearing for the localizer and glide separately, put into place? Because some pilot f*cked up and descended to the MSA after being cleared approach. This took him out of controlled airspace.
So some wise men in the UK decide, in the interest of safety, to come up with the ridicoulous idea that we see now. Instead of penalizing the airline that f*cked up?!?!
But I guess that's culture as well! And because the spanish culture doesn't match you feel there is a safety issue.
Maybe the UK has gone to faar in trying to eliminate every risk there is. Even to the extent that pilots don't feel they can do a rawdata ILS on a nice day.
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Human factors: The Australian airmiss study
Once again, It would be interested to hear from more ATC insiders on this..
The Spanish and a number of ATC worldwide systems ( and all of us ) could learn from the Australians.
The language issue is merely one link in the chain.
The latent deficiencies in the system need to be identified. Do you agree ?
The rate of accidents is low but air traffic is growing.
The Australian bureau of Air Safety Investigation carried out the study of the safety of the their ATS system(1991-2 )
They used the Reason model as a conceptual basis for the investigation.
The Reason model is needed in Spain to be applied to ATS, too in my humble opinion but I only have a few pieces of the puzzle.
Reason's model applied to the ATC system involves Error management, organizational deficiencies ( line management decisions ), psychological precursors to unsafe acts (excessive workload, poor human-system interface, working overtime, disturbed sleep patternsetc. ), inadequate defences, acceptance of distractions in the workplace( many incidents have controllers distracted prior to the occurence.
Sonnedoc has confirmed some of these...
What about failure to maintain the traffic picture (SA ) ?
Changes included the establishment of a Strategic Planning unit, upgrading and strengthening of the Quality assurance function, the introduction of a Human Factors training and the use of the Reason model in ATS occurence investigation and safety.
Inadequate defences were identified:
1. Controller must act as own safety net
2. Aircrew role not identified/understood
3. Inadequate monitoring
4. System has few failsafes
5. Collision avoidance not planned
6. Development of an integrated approach to training
7 Clarification of safety versus trade off,etc
What about the inappropiate use of flexibility to very procedures ?
Providing service without checking outcomes ?
Coordination failures ?
From the book,
" Beyond Aviation Human Factors " Maurino,Reason,Johnston and Lee
The Spanish and a number of ATC worldwide systems ( and all of us ) could learn from the Australians.
The language issue is merely one link in the chain.
The latent deficiencies in the system need to be identified. Do you agree ?
The rate of accidents is low but air traffic is growing.
The Australian bureau of Air Safety Investigation carried out the study of the safety of the their ATS system(1991-2 )
They used the Reason model as a conceptual basis for the investigation.
The Reason model is needed in Spain to be applied to ATS, too in my humble opinion but I only have a few pieces of the puzzle.
Reason's model applied to the ATC system involves Error management, organizational deficiencies ( line management decisions ), psychological precursors to unsafe acts (excessive workload, poor human-system interface, working overtime, disturbed sleep patternsetc. ), inadequate defences, acceptance of distractions in the workplace( many incidents have controllers distracted prior to the occurence.
Sonnedoc has confirmed some of these...
What about failure to maintain the traffic picture (SA ) ?
Changes included the establishment of a Strategic Planning unit, upgrading and strengthening of the Quality assurance function, the introduction of a Human Factors training and the use of the Reason model in ATS occurence investigation and safety.
Inadequate defences were identified:
1. Controller must act as own safety net
2. Aircrew role not identified/understood
3. Inadequate monitoring
4. System has few failsafes
5. Collision avoidance not planned
6. Development of an integrated approach to training
7 Clarification of safety versus trade off,etc
What about the inappropiate use of flexibility to very procedures ?
Providing service without checking outcomes ?
Coordination failures ?
From the book,
" Beyond Aviation Human Factors " Maurino,Reason,Johnston and Lee
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To Bomber Harris & the rest (Bomber Harris dixit):
Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom
Well, spanish ATCOs are not perfect, indeed: poor english, "continuous" mistakes, lack of information and knowledge... Anything else?
Probably, these are not unjustified complaints.
In my opinion, this is another exemple of how people use the internet as "complaint site": if their new brand mercedes is a disaster they will spend hours on the internet looking for some kind of consolation (info, other people complaints, reviews...), if their new brand mercedes is fine they are not going to mess about it.
Therefore, pilots in disagreement with spanish control will find here a good place to feel comfortable but there are pilots, bearing in mind your comments they will be only a little bunch -according to my reckonings-
, that don't need to unbosom themselves of daily and SAFE flights.
Cheers.
Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom
Well, spanish ATCOs are not perfect, indeed: poor english, "continuous" mistakes, lack of information and knowledge... Anything else?
Probably, these are not unjustified complaints.
In my opinion, this is another exemple of how people use the internet as "complaint site": if their new brand mercedes is a disaster they will spend hours on the internet looking for some kind of consolation (info, other people complaints, reviews...), if their new brand mercedes is fine they are not going to mess about it.
Therefore, pilots in disagreement with spanish control will find here a good place to feel comfortable but there are pilots, bearing in mind your comments they will be only a little bunch -according to my reckonings-
, that don't need to unbosom themselves of daily and SAFE flights.Cheers.
Last edited by groc; 11th Jun 2007 at 08:33.
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I can guarantee all of you that if I make a thread on ATC problems in the UK, it will be flooded with stories as well. I myself could add a few threads of all the problems I have encountered, and speaking with other pilots, I can guarantee you that I am not alone. I have stated this in this post before, but I have personally had more ATC issues in the UK than in any other European country.
This is getting ridiculous. People saying that they didn’t hear the ILS was out of service when there was a CLEAR notam issued. YOU are the pilot, its YOUR responsibility to check for all current notams. What a bunch of babies.
This is getting ridiculous. People saying that they didn’t hear the ILS was out of service when there was a CLEAR notam issued. YOU are the pilot, its YOUR responsibility to check for all current notams. What a bunch of babies.
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@ Airbatic7eca
I think you read it wrong. What I understood was that the pilots knew from the NOTAMS the ILS was u/s. But the controller was still giving clearances for the ILS approach.
Maybe it was fixed????!? I have already seen this happen in the UK, the notams said the ILS was u/s for maintenance. But on arrival it was working fine......
Do you as controllers need to read notams????
Why don't you make that thread, would be nice to see what comes up. I myself don't have many issues with either UK or spanish ATC.
I think you read it wrong. What I understood was that the pilots knew from the NOTAMS the ILS was u/s. But the controller was still giving clearances for the ILS approach.
Maybe it was fixed????!? I have already seen this happen in the UK, the notams said the ILS was u/s for maintenance. But on arrival it was working fine......
Do you as controllers need to read notams????
Why don't you make that thread, would be nice to see what comes up. I myself don't have many issues with either UK or spanish ATC.
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What I understood was that the pilots knew from the NOTAMS the ILS was u/s. But the controller was still giving clearances for the ILS approach.
