Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
Hardly the programme I was expecting, given the hype.
The main point which I found utterly unforgiveable was the utter contempt that so-called 'captain' of the delayed flight showed towards his passengers. A true Gerald Ratner moment. The passenger spokesman was quite right - that person was not fit to be in command of the aircraft. The 'captain' sounded like some cheap secondhand car dealer trying to worm out of a warranty claim with his whining denials.
The first officer stated that they "hadn't got enough pilots in Ryanair". Sure they probably fly up to the 100 hours in 28 days rule, but if there are insufficient pilots to support a 900 hours in 12 rolling, not calendar, month roster then Ryanair's passengers might well ipso facto be at risk from aircrew suffering from accumulated fatigue.
The main point which I found utterly unforgiveable was the utter contempt that so-called 'captain' of the delayed flight showed towards his passengers. A true Gerald Ratner moment. The passenger spokesman was quite right - that person was not fit to be in command of the aircraft. The 'captain' sounded like some cheap secondhand car dealer trying to worm out of a warranty claim with his whining denials.
The first officer stated that they "hadn't got enough pilots in Ryanair". Sure they probably fly up to the 100 hours in 28 days rule, but if there are insufficient pilots to support a 900 hours in 12 rolling, not calendar, month roster then Ryanair's passengers might well ipso facto be at risk from aircrew suffering from accumulated fatigue.
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Feb 2006 at 16:17.
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I think it is important to consider a little bit of the larger picture before we draw our conclusions.
Firstly this programme was based on the perspectives of two cabin crew with less than 5 months industry experience. I think they deserve a lot of credit for producing something that held most of our attention for a least a while. Some of it was certainly unimportant but they succeeded in capturing part of the Corporate Culture that a lot of us here suspect is rampant in Ryanair.
Those here who shout that all airlines are the same are either not pilots or else should not be pilots.
Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass.
The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport. Ryanair took some criticism of their cabin crew training after the fire on board. Can you imagine if a slide had failed that day? Has anyone here ever heard of a 'write it up at the end of the day culture'?
The security ID at Stansted is a major scam but one for the relevant authorities in the UK.
The vomit is a huge health and safety problem. With Bird Flu and Sars in recent years and the more likely Winter Vomiting Bug around to deliberately expose people to others vomit is sinful. Ryan will no doubt blame his staff for that decision but we can read between the lines.
All in all most of us are probably not overwhelmed by last nights effort. The problem is a real exposé would need a pilot with real experience to go undercover. There are hundreds and probably thousands with shocking stories but how will people know if we don't tell them.
Ryanair's skill is to turn us all into jobsworth's. Gutless, cowardly jobsworth's.
Dispatches did a good job considering they got no help from us.
BTW has anyone noticed that Ryanair has now broken the last aviation taboo. They boast about their crash record and some here use it as a stick to beat other operators. I find this practise abhorrent. Passengers should be able to take it for granted that an airline will not kill them.
Firstly this programme was based on the perspectives of two cabin crew with less than 5 months industry experience. I think they deserve a lot of credit for producing something that held most of our attention for a least a while. Some of it was certainly unimportant but they succeeded in capturing part of the Corporate Culture that a lot of us here suspect is rampant in Ryanair.
Those here who shout that all airlines are the same are either not pilots or else should not be pilots.
Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass.
The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport. Ryanair took some criticism of their cabin crew training after the fire on board. Can you imagine if a slide had failed that day? Has anyone here ever heard of a 'write it up at the end of the day culture'?
The security ID at Stansted is a major scam but one for the relevant authorities in the UK.
The vomit is a huge health and safety problem. With Bird Flu and Sars in recent years and the more likely Winter Vomiting Bug around to deliberately expose people to others vomit is sinful. Ryan will no doubt blame his staff for that decision but we can read between the lines.
All in all most of us are probably not overwhelmed by last nights effort. The problem is a real exposé would need a pilot with real experience to go undercover. There are hundreds and probably thousands with shocking stories but how will people know if we don't tell them.
Ryanair's skill is to turn us all into jobsworth's. Gutless, cowardly jobsworth's.
Dispatches did a good job considering they got no help from us.
BTW has anyone noticed that Ryanair has now broken the last aviation taboo. They boast about their crash record and some here use it as a stick to beat other operators. I find this practise abhorrent. Passengers should be able to take it for granted that an airline will not kill them.
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Always Target Sloppy Education.
Those are quite significant issues, even if nobody is talking much about them. After all pilots have legal responsibilities and a duty of care to think about.
Funny how, after 5 months muck gathering, that this particular man is chosen to represent the face of Ryanair command. Unrepresentative, unfairly presented, sensationalist tabloid bollix, in other words.
As for the "demoted for refusing to fly fatigued" codswallop, it simply isn't true. The Dublin captain in question couldn't be bothered, and sought to justify his recalcitrance after the fact by falsely claiming fatigue. Its as simple, and as scurrilous, as that.
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Leo you have again trotted out the official Ryanair line
This is what proves that you are far from being a line pilot. The rest of us mortals don't know what happened. We have a version on Crewdock. We have a complaint to the IAA. We have very little to go on. We also have considerable suspicions. You came on to pprune shortly after the incident to throw merde at the pilot concerned - including your "duvet days" or "duvet mornings" remark.
Like so much to do with Ryanair, the truth is hard to find. The spin is everywhere. The determination to defend the official position, regardless, is there. What we don't have is a reliable or independent source of information. As I have said before, your pronouncements are nothing other than propaganda.
What we saw on the programme last night was the authentic reaction of the vast majority of Ryanair pilots to what happened to that pilot. THAT REACTION WAS (AND IS) IMPORTANT, even if the IAA and Ryanair don't seem to agree.
As for the "demoted for refusing to fly fatigued" codswallop, it simply isn't true. The Dublin captain in question couldn't be bothered, and sought to justify his recalcitrance after the fact by falsely claiming fatigue. Its as simple, and as scurrilous, as that.
Like so much to do with Ryanair, the truth is hard to find. The spin is everywhere. The determination to defend the official position, regardless, is there. What we don't have is a reliable or independent source of information. As I have said before, your pronouncements are nothing other than propaganda.
What we saw on the programme last night was the authentic reaction of the vast majority of Ryanair pilots to what happened to that pilot. THAT REACTION WAS (AND IS) IMPORTANT, even if the IAA and Ryanair don't seem to agree.
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Faire d'income
"Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass."
Really, just didn't quite find it eh? Well that's about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
"The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport."
If the captain had been informed and if it had been unserviceable and if the captain ignored it then maybe you would have something to shout about. I would guess this is not the first time in aviation history cabin crew did not pass on information they should have.
"Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass."
Really, just didn't quite find it eh? Well that's about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
"The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport."
If the captain had been informed and if it had been unserviceable and if the captain ignored it then maybe you would have something to shout about. I would guess this is not the first time in aviation history cabin crew did not pass on information they should have.
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Aer Turas
If the cabin crew are unaware of the "dead mans bolt" how come they manage to lock and unlock the toilets during landing and take-off using the very concept you describe? Perchance this case had more to do with the fact that the casualty was slumped on the floor and the crew were unable to open the (inward opening) door?!
Back to the points "that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots".
Back to the points "that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots".
Last time I fly with Ryanair. With three thousand hours command, I have never seen anything like it ! Why do the Ryanair crew stand for such Sh*t from there management and why do thay keep defending the Ryanair regime ?? For gods sake, stand up for yourselfs and get a grip !
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Aer Turas, Thats utter crap. I am sorry its just not true. I am far from a FR apologist, search my posts, but lets stick to the truth. That has the ring to it of "A friend of a friend of a friedn told me that.."
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Command Assumptions
A number of assumptions which are now questionable,
When told "cabin is secure," I assume every seat checked for a package left by a passenger from the previous flight.
When a crew member reports for duty with I.D. and in uniform I assume qualified competent and security checked.
Respect for management is one thing fear of mangement is quite another.
What I saw last night raises questions about what I believe are industry wide assumptions.
Who is letting whom down in all of this?
When told "cabin is secure," I assume every seat checked for a package left by a passenger from the previous flight.
When a crew member reports for duty with I.D. and in uniform I assume qualified competent and security checked.
Respect for management is one thing fear of mangement is quite another.
What I saw last night raises questions about what I believe are industry wide assumptions.
Who is letting whom down in all of this?
I thought C4 gave Ryanair a fairer showing than you would have expected from reading the stuff on Ryanair's website. Some of it wasn't right (viz training school events, fatigue levels and corporate culture thereto) but I don't think that much of the other stuff merited any serious consideration.
Given the strength of feeling about Ryanair in the industry, it was fairly inevitable that if any television producer wanted to do a programme about Europe's low-cost airlines, Ryanair would become the obvious starting point. I have no sympathy with Ryanair on that count.
Given the strength of feeling about Ryanair in the industry, it was fairly inevitable that if any television producer wanted to do a programme about Europe's low-cost airlines, Ryanair would become the obvious starting point. I have no sympathy with Ryanair on that count.
Last edited by Heliport; 14th Feb 2006 at 19:45.
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The French are following it up
An opportunist/protectionist move by the French authorities?
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0214/ryanair.html
The French transport ministry has told its civil aviation authority to discuss Ryanair's security practices with regulators in Ireland and Britain.
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Why did the statement put out by RYR suggest that their crews worked an average of 18hrs a week. Purely to mislead the public. More like 45-60hrs a week duty with an average of 18hrs FDP over 52 weeks. SHAMEFUL
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Faire d'income
"Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass."
Really, just didn't quite find it eh? Well that's about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
"The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport."
If the captain had been informed and if it had been unserviceable and if the captain ignored it then maybe you would have something to shout about. I would guess this is not the first time in aviation history cabin crew did not pass on information they should have.
"Those looking for a smoking gun must remember that the source was 2 inexperienced cabin crew. There were times in the documentary when I felt they were close to something but didn't realise it and let the opportunity pass."
Really, just didn't quite find it eh? Well that's about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
"The slide was a major issue. If pilots come on here and tell me that it would be left unserviceable on other carriers they should contact Chirp or their Dept for Transport."
If the captain had been informed and if it had been unserviceable and if the captain ignored it then maybe you would have something to shout about. I would guess this is not the first time in aviation history cabin crew did not pass on information they should have.
If the captain had been informed and if it had been unserviceable
This is exactly what I was talking about.
*If the journalist knew more about the industry she should have dug in on this issue and may have found a real scandal.
*If the two cabin crew were competent professionals in a real airline they would both have informed the captain.
*If the captain knew a slide was u/s and subsequently departed without writing it up and following the relevent procedures he should be fired and criminally charged.
All ifs. All as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. If only she pressed harder.
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Faire d'income
So we agree, it was a crap documentary with crap investigators.
And by the way, I did watch carefully - it is obvious the captain was not told about the defect.
Next subject please.
So we agree, it was a crap documentary with crap investigators.
And by the way, I did watch carefully - it is obvious the captain was not told about the defect.
Next subject please.
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Originally Posted by RogerIrrelevant69
Faire d'income
So we agree, it was a crap documentary with crap investigators.
And by the way, I did watch carefully - it is obvious the captain was not told about the defect.
Next subject please.
So we agree, it was a crap documentary with crap investigators.
And by the way, I did watch carefully - it is obvious the captain was not told about the defect.
Next subject please.
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We saw for ourselves we can make our own minds up but it was all very clear to me. BUT.... personally I would not fly with them as Crew or as pax. I thought that the programme was crystal clear.... you cant cover up what was shown:
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Why wasn't the pilot informed of the slide being potentially U/S?
What really shocked me was the disregard by the staff of ryanair for its customers - the "if you pay a penny, you shouldnt expect a life jacket" statement sums it all up. That culture comes from the top. That culture is dangerous.
What really shocked me was the disregard by the staff of ryanair for its customers - the "if you pay a penny, you shouldnt expect a life jacket" statement sums it all up. That culture comes from the top. That culture is dangerous.
A great training video for any undesirables wanting to breach security!
Sadly, these management/front end cultural issues have a nasty tendency to pay out their negative reward in the fulness of time. Any cursory study of the lead-up to major incidents will show this.
Sadly, these management/front end cultural issues have a nasty tendency to pay out their negative reward in the fulness of time. Any cursory study of the lead-up to major incidents will show this.
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Mail today. Ryanair say 'don't believe everything you read in the papers'
I see their fares and their destinations published in the paper and yes there right- i don't believe them !
I see their fares and their destinations published in the paper and yes there right- i don't believe them !
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only saw some of the programme last night. was there any mention of pilots paying for their own training, buying their own uniforms, or any mention of the recent OFDM incident in which one of their a/c landed with only 2 stages of flap selected ?