Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
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Don't think I am doing anything wrong but I cannot get the letters on the Ryan Air website to open. Has anyone else had the same problem? have the letters been withdrawn?
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Let them chickens come home to roost
Yes of course C4's investigation will not produce any surprises for those of us who know this airline all too well. Nor should we expect a high standard of journalistic excellence. And, yes indeed, some of the allegations are fairly lame and irrelevant giving MOL (and no doubt LHC in due course, YAWN....) easy rebuttals while ignoring the really meaty stuff. But, there are pearls among the swine and at last the issue of pilot fatigue is getting an outing. Nice of Michael to open up his internal studies on that one
Interesting that he had it readily available. (Handy for the AAIU when THAT evil day dawns....) Like a naughty child covering his eyes when caught out, it is symptomatic of a guilty conscience, me thinks. Even if dispatches seem to have missed the most blatant abuses of the FTL scheme, it has now entered the public domain and the great unwashed will gradually absorb the fact that a tired pilot may kill them. I don't think MOL's aggressive, overly legalistic and heavy-handed response to C4 will impress the public.
Interesting that he had it readily available. (Handy for the AAIU when THAT evil day dawns....) Like a naughty child covering his eyes when caught out, it is symptomatic of a guilty conscience, me thinks. Even if dispatches seem to have missed the most blatant abuses of the FTL scheme, it has now entered the public domain and the great unwashed will gradually absorb the fact that a tired pilot may kill them. I don't think MOL's aggressive, overly legalistic and heavy-handed response to C4 will impress the public.
Can someone please save a copy of the Ryanair correspondence before it is pulled? Because it will be.
From my humble perspective, Ryanair has written those letters in a particular manner so as to be able to use them to obtain an injunction against the TV station, or as evidence for a defamation lawsuit later.
The letters provided by Ryanair are full of sweet reason, and give the impression that Ryanair is a workers paradise. The trouble is that no matter what the facts are according to Mr. O'Leary it is the corporate culture that is the real issue.
It is perfectly possible to have a wonderful operating manual and rules, but if the corporate culture does not support them they are dead letters.
Ho Hum, we are going to see a legal ****fight where both Ryanair and the program will win from all the free publicity.
From my humble perspective, Ryanair has written those letters in a particular manner so as to be able to use them to obtain an injunction against the TV station, or as evidence for a defamation lawsuit later.
The letters provided by Ryanair are full of sweet reason, and give the impression that Ryanair is a workers paradise. The trouble is that no matter what the facts are according to Mr. O'Leary it is the corporate culture that is the real issue.
It is perfectly possible to have a wonderful operating manual and rules, but if the corporate culture does not support them they are dead letters.
Ho Hum, we are going to see a legal ****fight where both Ryanair and the program will win from all the free publicity.
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CODSWOLLOP I SAY!!
I've seen the advert, i've read the letters on the Ryanair website and to cut a long story short i think its a bunch of old CODSWOLLOP!!
Any excuse to get a story and make money!!
As for pilots being over worked erhh where did they get that!! My other half is a pilot and it feels like hes never at work!!
Any excuse to get a story and make money!!
As for pilots being over worked erhh where did they get that!! My other half is a pilot and it feels like hes never at work!!
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i've just found this article from the Belfast telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...p?story=678622
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...p?story=678622
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Anyone note the striking similarities between the style of prose in MOL's letters to the C4 producers and Leo Hairy Camels posts on this website?
Also, very noticeable is the Ryanair management philosophy that if you repeat a mistruth often enough the great unwashed public will start to believe it is true. It is so obvious to us in the business that by his repeated claims of pilots only flying to the maximum of 100 hours in 28 days equates to only 25 hours a week is designed to put across the impression that Ryanair pilots are mollycoddled and hardly work at all. It surely is a double edged sword in that he would like the public to believe that pilots hardly work at all but at the same time he insults his pilot workforce by trying to make out that they are underworked, lazy and inefficient.
Also, in the letters published is one comparing "average salaries" between Ryanair, easyJet, BA and Lufthansa. Anyone notice the blatant untruths in that one? In very small print at the bottom it mentions "excluding social, welfare and pension". Well, considering that Ryanairs pay is it and they don't include any "social, welfare or pension", they are obviously lying blatantly in their claims of being the best paying airline. Also, by claiming an "average" salary the figures mean nothing without knowing the range of numbers between the highest and the lowest, never mind how many of each.
The blatant audacity to claim that the cabin crew have to pay for the duration of their employment for their uniforms at £25 a month is just one more example of the thieving bar stewards utterly contemptible attitude towards their employees. I mean, c'mon, are you claiming that your cabin crew go through £300 worth of uniform a year? Only slime like Leo and his ilk could admit that they increase their companies profitability by hacking away at their employees benefits and wages.
So, whilst C4 and Dispatches are no friends of airline pilots, we do see here an attempt to put one over on Leo Hairy Camel and his miserable band of bullies. It is time that the public got to see a bit of what has been exposed on here for years, that Ryanair are one of the most profitable airlines because in reality they are one of the lowest paying airlines when you add up all the benefits and allowances when comparing them to any other airline. There is a management culture that relies on bullying, insults and threats that all cause financial pain to the employee should they so much as question some of their practices.
Also, very noticeable is the Ryanair management philosophy that if you repeat a mistruth often enough the great unwashed public will start to believe it is true. It is so obvious to us in the business that by his repeated claims of pilots only flying to the maximum of 100 hours in 28 days equates to only 25 hours a week is designed to put across the impression that Ryanair pilots are mollycoddled and hardly work at all. It surely is a double edged sword in that he would like the public to believe that pilots hardly work at all but at the same time he insults his pilot workforce by trying to make out that they are underworked, lazy and inefficient.
Also, in the letters published is one comparing "average salaries" between Ryanair, easyJet, BA and Lufthansa. Anyone notice the blatant untruths in that one? In very small print at the bottom it mentions "excluding social, welfare and pension". Well, considering that Ryanairs pay is it and they don't include any "social, welfare or pension", they are obviously lying blatantly in their claims of being the best paying airline. Also, by claiming an "average" salary the figures mean nothing without knowing the range of numbers between the highest and the lowest, never mind how many of each.
The blatant audacity to claim that the cabin crew have to pay for the duration of their employment for their uniforms at £25 a month is just one more example of the thieving bar stewards utterly contemptible attitude towards their employees. I mean, c'mon, are you claiming that your cabin crew go through £300 worth of uniform a year? Only slime like Leo and his ilk could admit that they increase their companies profitability by hacking away at their employees benefits and wages.
So, whilst C4 and Dispatches are no friends of airline pilots, we do see here an attempt to put one over on Leo Hairy Camel and his miserable band of bullies. It is time that the public got to see a bit of what has been exposed on here for years, that Ryanair are one of the most profitable airlines because in reality they are one of the lowest paying airlines when you add up all the benefits and allowances when comparing them to any other airline. There is a management culture that relies on bullying, insults and threats that all cause financial pain to the employee should they so much as question some of their practices.
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Originally Posted by Memetic
This is shaping up to be a great case study on crisis communications.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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I've been in a version of what Michael O'Leary is going through, when an airline I was working for was subject to 30 minutes "trial by television" - basically, a load of disgruntled ex-employees, venting their spleen with a series of provably wrong claims that a gutter media - who had clearly committed to filling 30 minutes of airtime before they had done any research - were happy to lap up.
I hate to say it, but this is another symptom of the dreadfully low standards of journalism that we see in the UK. It is but a small step from "terror jet seconds from disaster over orphanage" to "sit in the front row of a 737 and you will die in the event of an accident". From a journalist's point of view, both grab the reader's/viewer's attention, and therefore "make good television".
If a journalist wanted to make a name for themselves, what better way than to feed on any public uneasiness about flying (better still, to generate some) and get as public a figure and as public a company as Michael O'Leary and Ryanair pilloried "in the public interest"?
I wish Michael O'Leary all the luck in the world with this, and I hope he sues them until their teeth fall out.
I hate to say it, but this is another symptom of the dreadfully low standards of journalism that we see in the UK. It is but a small step from "terror jet seconds from disaster over orphanage" to "sit in the front row of a 737 and you will die in the event of an accident". From a journalist's point of view, both grab the reader's/viewer's attention, and therefore "make good television".
If a journalist wanted to make a name for themselves, what better way than to feed on any public uneasiness about flying (better still, to generate some) and get as public a figure and as public a company as Michael O'Leary and Ryanair pilloried "in the public interest"?
I wish Michael O'Leary all the luck in the world with this, and I hope he sues them until their teeth fall out.
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I'm with arewenearlythereyet? on this. Anything in the Ryanair materials that I can independently check is a distortion or a manipulation of the facts or a play on words. This does not make C4 right, but it suggests that Ryanair have decided on a "bad news management" strategy which has little to do with the merits of what C4 have to say. Also, it is a clever little stategem to involve the various Aviation/Safety authorities by proxy! (copying them letters, citing their approval of various things, etc).
For me, all that C4 seems to have uncovered is the basic stuff familiar to any FR employee - but as somebody above pointed out, this is not familiar to many people and the programme cannot really do any harm.
What I do know a litle about, namely the demotion of the Ryanair captain in highly disputed circumstances, is absolutely mis-represented in the correspondence. However, we have yet to hear a word from the IAA about this and clearly Ryanair believe that the IAA will go along with their interpretation of events. History suggests that the IAA will avoid this matter like the proverbial plague - but that does not make Ryanair right. What Ryanair pilot of any length of service doubts what took place? (Sorry Leo but you don't qualify as a real line pilot).
TwinAisle - you consider yourself the "Scourge of Bad Airline Management"! AND "wish Michael O'Leary all the luck in the world with this.... ". What part of "Bad Airline Management" do you specialise in scourging !?!?
For me, all that C4 seems to have uncovered is the basic stuff familiar to any FR employee - but as somebody above pointed out, this is not familiar to many people and the programme cannot really do any harm.
What I do know a litle about, namely the demotion of the Ryanair captain in highly disputed circumstances, is absolutely mis-represented in the correspondence. However, we have yet to hear a word from the IAA about this and clearly Ryanair believe that the IAA will go along with their interpretation of events. History suggests that the IAA will avoid this matter like the proverbial plague - but that does not make Ryanair right. What Ryanair pilot of any length of service doubts what took place? (Sorry Leo but you don't qualify as a real line pilot).
TwinAisle - you consider yourself the "Scourge of Bad Airline Management"! AND "wish Michael O'Leary all the luck in the world with this.... ". What part of "Bad Airline Management" do you specialise in scourging !?!?
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Originally Posted by TwinAisle
Which bits?
The bits that don't make any money...!
The bits that don't make any money...!
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Perhaps I should say at this point that I do not, nor have I ever, worked at Ryanair, so I shall leave Camel Killer's question to be answered by those who have or do. Suffice it to say, if there was something wrong at ANY airline, wouldn't the aviation authorities be better judges than "tabloid style" journalists?
My only real point on this thread was that I hate to see trial by television. Whether Ryanair and/or Michael O'Leary have a case to answer wasn't my point.
My only real point on this thread was that I hate to see trial by television. Whether Ryanair and/or Michael O'Leary have a case to answer wasn't my point.
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Originally Posted by TwinAisle
Perhaps I should say at this point that I do not, nor have I ever, worked at Ryanair, so I shall leave Camel Killer's question to be answered by those who have or do. Suffice it to say, if there was something wrong at ANY airline, wouldn't the aviation authorities be better judges than "tabloid style" journalists?
Originally Posted by TwinAisle
My only real point on this thread was that I hate to see trial by television. Whether Ryanair and/or Michael O'Leary have a case to answer wasn't my point.
Psychophysiological entity
I've had a quick read through...have I missed something?
How the bloody blue blazes did a camera crew, despite a camera being small enough to be worn in the lapel, get their equipment through security?
Did they get some sort of permission?
And the $64,000 question. Was it running during a critical stage of flight?
How the bloody blue blazes did a camera crew, despite a camera being small enough to be worn in the lapel, get their equipment through security?
Did they get some sort of permission?
And the $64,000 question. Was it running during a critical stage of flight?
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I'm with twinaisle on this one.
Ryanair or not, this is gutter journalism at it's absolute lowest and is completely beyond contempt. Whichever 'aviation expert' controbuted to this wants stringing up as well.
Whatever you think about Ryanair, this could easily be done to ANY airline in this country if it was edited cleverly enough. I know that some people on these boards rate Ryanair as the lowest of the low but at the end of the day people don't have to work for them. There are plenty of other airlines out there recruiting at the minute. I have some good friends at Ryanair who are bloody good pilots and are perfectly happy.
Can anyone who flies for a loco/no frills carrier honestly say that they are not working 850-900hrs a year? I know I can't...and what's more, if this is the absolute hardest I have to work in my career then I can't complain.
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on MOL or Ryanair but I hope he takes 'Dispatches' to the cleaners. It's patenly grasping at straws filling an uneducated public's mind with utter rubbish. There may well be some issues at Ryanair (although the 'evidence' presented by the TV company does not hint at any) but this kind of rubbish is doing nothing to air them in the correct way.
Looserivets,
...and how could CC supposedly carrying out their duties possibly be filiming. The production company's assertions on this score don't really cut the mustard in my opinion.
TS6
Ryanair or not, this is gutter journalism at it's absolute lowest and is completely beyond contempt. Whichever 'aviation expert' controbuted to this wants stringing up as well.
Whatever you think about Ryanair, this could easily be done to ANY airline in this country if it was edited cleverly enough. I know that some people on these boards rate Ryanair as the lowest of the low but at the end of the day people don't have to work for them. There are plenty of other airlines out there recruiting at the minute. I have some good friends at Ryanair who are bloody good pilots and are perfectly happy.
Can anyone who flies for a loco/no frills carrier honestly say that they are not working 850-900hrs a year? I know I can't...and what's more, if this is the absolute hardest I have to work in my career then I can't complain.
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on MOL or Ryanair but I hope he takes 'Dispatches' to the cleaners. It's patenly grasping at straws filling an uneducated public's mind with utter rubbish. There may well be some issues at Ryanair (although the 'evidence' presented by the TV company does not hint at any) but this kind of rubbish is doing nothing to air them in the correct way.
Looserivets,
How the bloody blue blazes did a camera crew, despite a camera being small enough to be worn in the lapel, get their equipment through security?
TS6
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Am I missing something here? Doesn't anyone find it extraordinary that Ryanair publishes private letters to and from Channel 4 on their website? Letters that say 'Strictly Private and Confidential' on them? 
If some of you think this programme can't do Ryanair any harm then you are wrong. Hearsy and inuendo are not things the CAA or IAA can act on, video evidence is. Furthermore this programme is high profile to the traveling public who will judge it as they see it, and it doesn't look good for Ryanair.
If some of you think this programme can't do Ryanair any harm then you are wrong. Hearsy and inuendo are not things the CAA or IAA can act on, video evidence is. Furthermore this programme is high profile to the traveling public who will judge it as they see it, and it doesn't look good for Ryanair.
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The problem with this sort of program is that while we can see it from one angle, the travelling public have no idea what is really a problem and what is just sensationalism dressed up as fact.
This could be damaging to RYR and all the damage control they try will only be of limited value, since if it's on the telly its got to be true....
We all know that there are issues at RYR, but it would be nice if when any company is dragged through the mud, it's done correctly. If a company starts hurting, who are the ones who have to pay for it?
I didn't read anything in the letter on the RYR website that surprised or even concerned me, it all seems to be inuenndo and hearsay, though we'll have to wait for the program to give a real opinion on it.
This could be damaging to RYR and all the damage control they try will only be of limited value, since if it's on the telly its got to be true....
We all know that there are issues at RYR, but it would be nice if when any company is dragged through the mud, it's done correctly. If a company starts hurting, who are the ones who have to pay for it?
I didn't read anything in the letter on the RYR website that surprised or even concerned me, it all seems to be inuenndo and hearsay, though we'll have to wait for the program to give a real opinion on it.
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I'm no great fan of Ryanair, and MOL in particular, but for those who are rubbing their little hands in undisguised glee over the programme there may just be one point you wish to bear in mind.
To Joe Public, Ryanair is virtually indistinguishable from any other airline, so if Dispatches do a hatchet job on FR, then they do a hatchet job on us all. Any doubts raised about the safety of lo-co travel, or crew competence, will be applied across the board (and not just in lo-co). After all, one a/c or airline is pretty much the same as any other a/c or airline to the uninitiated.
Don't think so? Well, how many times have you seen the lobotomised drooling morons come tumbling out the terminal and wander off to the a/c of their choice, despite the fact the one right in front of them has the airline logo plastered down the side in 6 foot letters and the other one hasn't. It happens with monotonous regularity.
To Joe Public, Ryanair is virtually indistinguishable from any other airline, so if Dispatches do a hatchet job on FR, then they do a hatchet job on us all. Any doubts raised about the safety of lo-co travel, or crew competence, will be applied across the board (and not just in lo-co). After all, one a/c or airline is pretty much the same as any other a/c or airline to the uninitiated.
Don't think so? Well, how many times have you seen the lobotomised drooling morons come tumbling out the terminal and wander off to the a/c of their choice, despite the fact the one right in front of them has the airline logo plastered down the side in 6 foot letters and the other one hasn't. It happens with monotonous regularity.