Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
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Originally Posted by Copenhagen
Why wasn't the pilot informed of the slide being potentially U/S?
What really shocked me was the disregard by the staff of ryanair for its customers - the "if you pay a penny, you shouldnt expect a life jacket" statement sums it all up. That culture comes from the top. That culture is dangerous.
What really shocked me was the disregard by the staff of ryanair for its customers - the "if you pay a penny, you shouldnt expect a life jacket" statement sums it all up. That culture comes from the top. That culture is dangerous.
Paxing All Over The World
Is there a case for removing the need to carry jackets ?
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Time for a dawn raid on Ryanair's offices by the IAA - if they are awake in time - to check out their training procedures and overall management culture of fear - "think of my wife and kids" said the Captain when confronted with the spokesman on the plane so worried about losing his job he was failing to think of the 189 souls behind him who wanted a drink - not much to ask when they'd been sitting on board for 3 hours or so.
Agree with some posters - if C4 looked harder at the footage they might have spotted a few other issues that didn't get picked up - this programme may still come back to haunt FR
Agree with some posters - if C4 looked harder at the footage they might have spotted a few other issues that didn't get picked up - this programme may still come back to haunt FR
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My 2p's worth...
As a recently qualified APTL and experienced Cabin Crew with a major UK charter, I'd like to comment on last night's televised investigation.
First, in response to the last few posts, the whole point of checking the life-jacket pouches under the seats is not primarily to check that a jacket exists under each seat... rather that nothing more sinister has been put there instead. That why the DfT introduced the policy to airlines. In the same way, they began placing dummy articles on board aircraft not to catch crews out, but to check that the guidelines and SOP's were being properly adhered to. The fact that the crew failed to discover the article in the demonstrated case does not prove anything - looking for a needle in a haystack is not easy and many crews each year are caught out. But if they are doing the checks to the best of their ability and to company/DfT requirements, can anyone ask any more of them?
I take on board what people have posted here about the media putting cats among the proverbial public pigeons... but many posts here seem to be missing the major problems highlighted by the journalists.
All the way through my many pilot and cabin crew training courses, I have had drilled into me the authority of the commander. To get to the LHS of a Ryanair 737, the skipper has gone through assessments, courses, more assessments and has many thousands of hours of experience under his belt. Ryanair employed him as a decision maker. Why on this earth then does he feel forced to act like a string puppet? Whose name is on the tech log? Whose licence is having the p**s taken? Unless MOL has a special qualification that allows him to fly however many 737s are in FR's fleet all at once, why doesn't he leave his Commanders to do just that, command. That's what he pays them for.... isn't it?
I have never travelled Ryanair and don't have anything personally to do with them, nor do I have anything against them. My personal experience and indirect experience (from others in the industry) says that many of the problems in last night's programme exist or take place in many other airlines. Perhaps we should focus less on the company involved (Ryanair), and more upon resolving the industry-wide issues that it raises.
FFL
First, in response to the last few posts, the whole point of checking the life-jacket pouches under the seats is not primarily to check that a jacket exists under each seat... rather that nothing more sinister has been put there instead. That why the DfT introduced the policy to airlines. In the same way, they began placing dummy articles on board aircraft not to catch crews out, but to check that the guidelines and SOP's were being properly adhered to. The fact that the crew failed to discover the article in the demonstrated case does not prove anything - looking for a needle in a haystack is not easy and many crews each year are caught out. But if they are doing the checks to the best of their ability and to company/DfT requirements, can anyone ask any more of them?
I take on board what people have posted here about the media putting cats among the proverbial public pigeons... but many posts here seem to be missing the major problems highlighted by the journalists.
All the way through my many pilot and cabin crew training courses, I have had drilled into me the authority of the commander. To get to the LHS of a Ryanair 737, the skipper has gone through assessments, courses, more assessments and has many thousands of hours of experience under his belt. Ryanair employed him as a decision maker. Why on this earth then does he feel forced to act like a string puppet? Whose name is on the tech log? Whose licence is having the p**s taken? Unless MOL has a special qualification that allows him to fly however many 737s are in FR's fleet all at once, why doesn't he leave his Commanders to do just that, command. That's what he pays them for.... isn't it?
I have never travelled Ryanair and don't have anything personally to do with them, nor do I have anything against them. My personal experience and indirect experience (from others in the industry) says that many of the problems in last night's programme exist or take place in many other airlines. Perhaps we should focus less on the company involved (Ryanair), and more upon resolving the industry-wide issues that it raises.
FFL
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OK, how's this for an idea? There are a lot of regulations in the industry based on time - e.g. max. duty times, maintenance schedules, etc. What about a minimum turn around time so that security, cleaning and the like can be done properly? There would obviously have to be a fair playing field for all operators so aircraft size, cabin crew numbers and possibly other factors would have to be part of the equation.
Retires to bunker with hard hat on...
ND
Retires to bunker with hard hat on...
ND
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What we saw on that show was a classic case of corporate "resignation" - an imasculated captain backed by demotivated, undisciplined and fatigued crew. As in any business, the rot starts at the top which is precisely where the buck should finally stop.
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The aircraft in Spain was delayed by several hours by all accounts. How would any pilot out there feel if an undercover reported came on to your flight deck and started chatting away? I've been in the situation many times, you pass the time with idle banter. Now imagine that idle banter being taken out of context and edited and re-edited. Thats what happened on that flight deck and I think it sends a shiver down the spine of every pilot out there when they think that private conversations on the ground during a tech delay could end up on national TV. We don't know the context of the conversation, the undercover reporter could have been asking very misleading questions or the pilots may have been simply winding the girl up. This is serious and as pilots we have to take a stand against this underhand reporting. Make no mistake, this could be any crew on any airline. The guys last night were just bitching but next time it happens a marriage or a career could be over.
Leo my friend I have heard both sides of the story regarding the demotion in Dublin. I believe the IAA are in the process of investigating. I'm willing to reserve judgement on the matter until the IAA process is complete. Are you?
Leo my friend I have heard both sides of the story regarding the demotion in Dublin. I believe the IAA are in the process of investigating. I'm willing to reserve judgement on the matter until the IAA process is complete. Are you?
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A simple question for Beernice, and one for any serving Ryanair flight crew
As there is no "duty free" in the EEC was the "locked bars" excuse for not offering more than tap water a smoke-screen?
Do Ryanair Captains have any authority to offer "free" drinks, at their discretion, to delayed passengers on board?
As there is no "duty free" in the EEC was the "locked bars" excuse for not offering more than tap water a smoke-screen?
Do Ryanair Captains have any authority to offer "free" drinks, at their discretion, to delayed passengers on board?
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Faire d'income
Quote "*If the captain knew a slide was u/s and subsequently departed without writing it up and following the relevent procedures he should be fired and criminally charged."
I think you forgot the summary execution bit.
On the "evidence" presented in this very poor documentary, I think talk like this is utter pish. Chill pills recommended all round.
Quote "*If the captain knew a slide was u/s and subsequently departed without writing it up and following the relevent procedures he should be fired and criminally charged."
I think you forgot the summary execution bit.
On the "evidence" presented in this very poor documentary, I think talk like this is utter pish. Chill pills recommended all round.
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Nice to see the latest RYR advert for 3 million free seats in today's Daily Mail, and their apology to BA, easyJet etc for those seats. Shame though they are not free unless RYR are paying for the credit card fee, wheelchair fee and airport taxes themselves. I suspect this advert is the latest way of diverting Joe Publics attention away from the Dispatches program.
Just a numbered other
BFF
I work for one of the above, and carry a copy of the memo which prohibits me from giving anything away, no matter what.
I watched the programme, and a lot of it was strangely familiar. The makers wasted a lot of time and effort to produce the weakest 'expose' I have ever seen. To let the RYR comments through (especially the 18 hour week joke) without comment lost them a chance to expose MOL as the nasty, economical with the truth runt he is.
To all the romantics out there; get real folks. The imperious airline captain sweeping aboard followed dutifuly by his crew is a dinosoar of the past. Bereft of life, he is extinct.
We are now no better than white van men of the air, whose decisions (outside of immediate safety) are already made by bean counters; to be followed...or disobeyed at your peril.
Our focus is now trying to halt or slow the slide in our Ts and Cs to those of the real white van men.
As for my pax? I simply can't treat them with the respect I was wont to do when flying for a proper airline. Respect works both ways. THe preview for the programme in 'The Times' on Monday by David Chater typifies their outlook:
I feel sorry for those genuine travellers who only find themselves Loco through lack of any alternative, but Chater's veiw is a common one.....until suddenly one day all the holes in the cheese line up and he removes the word 'safer' from his final sentence.
Roll on retirement
I work for one of the above, and carry a copy of the memo which prohibits me from giving anything away, no matter what.
I watched the programme, and a lot of it was strangely familiar. The makers wasted a lot of time and effort to produce the weakest 'expose' I have ever seen. To let the RYR comments through (especially the 18 hour week joke) without comment lost them a chance to expose MOL as the nasty, economical with the truth runt he is.
To all the romantics out there; get real folks. The imperious airline captain sweeping aboard followed dutifuly by his crew is a dinosoar of the past. Bereft of life, he is extinct.
We are now no better than white van men of the air, whose decisions (outside of immediate safety) are already made by bean counters; to be followed...or disobeyed at your peril.
Our focus is now trying to halt or slow the slide in our Ts and Cs to those of the real white van men.
As for my pax? I simply can't treat them with the respect I was wont to do when flying for a proper airline. Respect works both ways. THe preview for the programme in 'The Times' on Monday by David Chater typifies their outlook:
'.......I have flown to Athens and back for less than the price of a return ticket to Dorset and back by train......... It is said to show film of Ryanair behaving badly - dirty planes, security lapses, exhausted pilots and cynical cabin staff. "What they found," we are warned, "may make you think twice about flying RYR again." What rubbish. It can have unshaven pilots covered in egg stains [He must have flown with me
] assisted by foul mouthed cabin staff for all I care - it would still be cheaper, safer and more comfortable than going anywhere by train.'
] assisted by foul mouthed cabin staff for all I care - it would still be cheaper, safer and more comfortable than going anywhere by train.'
Roll on retirement
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VIKING9 wrote: "Nice to see the latest RYR advert for 3 million free seats in today's Daily Mail, and their apology to BA, easyJet etc for those seats. Shame though they are not free unless RYR are paying for the credit card fee, wheelchair fee and airport taxes themselves."
Well, that would be paying the expences in addition to giving away free seats, wouldn't it? I think your criticism is a bit too cynical. The thing here is that the average fare with Ryan is about 28 Euros, and I've heard rumours that this is to be cut to zero within a couple of years. I think you've lost the point if you want to include secondary expences in the equation. After all, no other operator can match this...
Well, that would be paying the expences in addition to giving away free seats, wouldn't it? I think your criticism is a bit too cynical. The thing here is that the average fare with Ryan is about 28 Euros, and I've heard rumours that this is to be cut to zero within a couple of years. I think you've lost the point if you want to include secondary expences in the equation. After all, no other operator can match this...
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Originally Posted by RYR-738-JOCKEY
VIKING9 wrote: think your criticism is a bit too cynical. The thing here is that the average fare with Ryan is about 28 Euros, and I've heard rumours that this is to be cut to zero within a couple of years. I think you've lost the point if you want to include secondary expences in the equation. After all, no other operator can match this...
As for no other operator matching RYR, well, I don't think any of the other locos come anywhere near RYR which IMHO is a good thing !
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From this morning's Irish Independent on line:
British officials seek talks with Ryanair after TV expose
08:20 Wednesday February 15th 2006
The British Department of Transport is reportedly seeking talks with Ryanair following's this week's expose on Channel 4's Dispatches programme.
The documentary unveiled a number of security and safety breaches at the Irish airline, with cabin crews failing to check passports and safety equipment and falling asleep on the job.
It also revealed the extent to which staff at the company feel unappreciated and overworked, with one pilot saying he feared being sacked if he refused to fly while he was tired.
Ryanair has rejected all of the allegations made by the programme, despite the fact that they were based on video footage recorded by two undercover reporters who infiltrated the airline for five months.
British officials seek talks with Ryanair after TV expose
08:20 Wednesday February 15th 2006
The British Department of Transport is reportedly seeking talks with Ryanair following's this week's expose on Channel 4's Dispatches programme.
The documentary unveiled a number of security and safety breaches at the Irish airline, with cabin crews failing to check passports and safety equipment and falling asleep on the job.
It also revealed the extent to which staff at the company feel unappreciated and overworked, with one pilot saying he feared being sacked if he refused to fly while he was tired.
Ryanair has rejected all of the allegations made by the programme, despite the fact that they were based on video footage recorded by two undercover reporters who infiltrated the airline for five months.
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Woodpecker, ryanair bars are sealed on the ground. Don't know why. Perhaps our friend Leo can help with that one.We are not allowed to open them on the ground. For all of you non pilots out there waffleing on about the authority of the captain get real!. The captain operates the aircraft in accordance with the company proceedures. The book says do not open the bars on the ground so we don't. Other airlines have different procedures and good luck to them. Most companys now do not give their crews much lee-way, there are procedures that must be adhered to for most situations.
You also have to remember that this was a minor tech delay. As I understand it the crew were waiting for some paper work from engeering. That could have come at any momement and the crew had to be ready to depart. And for good measure the airport had offically shut.The airport normally shuts shortly after the depaerture of the evening Ryanair. The tower stayed open to allow the departure. So can you imagine the start up call, "Ryanair xxx ready for start, just waiting for the bars to be stored and all passangers to finish their drinks"
You also have to remember that this was a minor tech delay. As I understand it the crew were waiting for some paper work from engeering. That could have come at any momement and the crew had to be ready to depart. And for good measure the airport had offically shut.The airport normally shuts shortly after the depaerture of the evening Ryanair. The tower stayed open to allow the departure. So can you imagine the start up call, "Ryanair xxx ready for start, just waiting for the bars to be stored and all passangers to finish their drinks"
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Originally Posted by RYR-738-JOCKEY
VIKING9 wrote: ".......Shame though they are not free unless RYR are paying for the credit card fee, wheelchair fee and airport taxes themselves."
Well, that would be paying the expences in addition to giving away free seats, wouldn't it? I think your criticism is a bit too cynical. The thing here is that the average fare with Ryan is about 28 Euros, and I've heard rumours that this is to be cut to zero within a couple of years. I think you've lost the point if you want to include secondary expences in the equation. After all, no other operator can match this...
Well, that would be paying the expences in addition to giving away free seats, wouldn't it? I think your criticism is a bit too cynical. The thing here is that the average fare with Ryan is about 28 Euros, and I've heard rumours that this is to be cut to zero within a couple of years. I think you've lost the point if you want to include secondary expences in the equation. After all, no other operator can match this...
Charges include catalytic convertor @€20,000 and seat belts @€10,000
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Quote "*If the captain knew a slide was u/s and subsequently departed without writing it up and following the relevent procedures he should be fired and criminally charged."
I think you forgot the summary execution bit.
On the "evidence" presented in this very poor documentary, I think talk like this is utter pish. Chill pills recommended all round.
I think you forgot the summary execution bit.
On the "evidence" presented in this very poor documentary, I think talk like this is utter pish. Chill pills recommended all round.
Chill pills indeed. You might not like the fact your company is being dragged through the dirt but at least take your head out of the sand and acknowledge why. The attitude of a lot of staff there seems to bear a remarkable resemblance to a certain wooly poster here.
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The programme was a gross embarassment to Ryanair, the IAA and the CAA. Channel 4 may well have made a better programme. But they didn't and we only have what they have broadcast. The IAA and CAA are concerned with the airlines under their authority, not Channel 4.
The fact that Ryanair and their supporters on this thread say the programme was 'inconclusive' and 'amateurish' is irrelevant. The programme has placed some possibly serious breaches of security, training and procedures in the public domain. Therefore ShamRoc's post was inevitable as the IAA and CAA will have to investigate Ryanair's procedures or they will also be culpable in the public's view.
The fact that Ryanair and their supporters on this thread say the programme was 'inconclusive' and 'amateurish' is irrelevant. The programme has placed some possibly serious breaches of security, training and procedures in the public domain. Therefore ShamRoc's post was inevitable as the IAA and CAA will have to investigate Ryanair's procedures or they will also be culpable in the public's view.