Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
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I have just started to work for ryanair as a F/O, and worked for two other airlines. I am very pleased to say that ryanair has such a high standard, and their training is something else, and if these cabin crew and F/O's don't want to work all these hours don't join the bloody airline in the first place.
It's the same old story, let’s try and knock down the most successful airline in Europe).
It's the same old story, let’s try and knock down the most successful airline in Europe).
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Lets call a spade a shovel.
I think the dispatches programme was very timid and very poorly researched.
These 2 lassies didn't seem to be briefed on their task or understand their subject.
I have 1 very important point to raise. The cabin crew were seen on 2 different courses being told by their tutor that they could use their manuals to take the exam. Hardly an exam then I believe, but then what would I know.
The RYR response was that we broke no rules and the IAA and CAA have no issues to address. Now between them it lies. Maybe the IAA are too embarressed with their slack rules to make an issue of it. Either way I would expect RYR to do the right thing and adequetly test their crews and not hide behind the legal view point.
But in this world you can do what you want until something happens.
Is it not too much for the passenger on a Ryanair to expect the cabin crew to have displayed a level of competency?
You can keep your complimentary drinks but you have a legal and moral duty to look after my welfare in your aircraft.
Is that too much to ask for?
I think the dispatches programme was very timid and very poorly researched.
These 2 lassies didn't seem to be briefed on their task or understand their subject.
I have 1 very important point to raise. The cabin crew were seen on 2 different courses being told by their tutor that they could use their manuals to take the exam. Hardly an exam then I believe, but then what would I know.
The RYR response was that we broke no rules and the IAA and CAA have no issues to address. Now between them it lies. Maybe the IAA are too embarressed with their slack rules to make an issue of it. Either way I would expect RYR to do the right thing and adequetly test their crews and not hide behind the legal view point.
But in this world you can do what you want until something happens.
Is it not too much for the passenger on a Ryanair to expect the cabin crew to have displayed a level of competency?
You can keep your complimentary drinks but you have a legal and moral duty to look after my welfare in your aircraft.
Is that too much to ask for?
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it was nice to see a low cost, low paying airline have so much attention. They may be "the best in Europe" but as what? I would like to see more pay for what you get airlines under the security spot light.
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Originally Posted by Bad Robot
There were remarkable simularities on this programe to the Airline that I fly for. For example, our cabin crew are told only to check 15% of the life jackets per turnaround. If you only do 4 sectors then only 60% have been checked. I have never heard on a hand over to an on comming late shift where the previous crew had actually got to, ie which Seat Row; as some may have not actually completed the 15% per sector for a multitude of reasons.
However, on the flights that I have operated I rarely see any Life Jacket holders checked unless there is a whiff of the DfT or CAA, pending a ramp check or spot check of the aircraft.
Bottom line? 25 minute turnarounds are not acceptable. Period!
However, on the flights that I have operated I rarely see any Life Jacket holders checked unless there is a whiff of the DfT or CAA, pending a ramp check or spot check of the aircraft.
Bottom line? 25 minute turnarounds are not acceptable. Period!
Just a numbered other
Hairy Windbag Camel, what exactly does your threat:
Mean?
Thought you'd dismissed this as tosh, so how come it's getting under your skin to that degree?
Not sure they fully appreciate who they've taken on this time though. Hope they've got deep pockets. They'll shortly need 'em.
Thought you'd dismissed this as tosh, so how come it's getting under your skin to that degree?
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Originally Posted by saltrock
I'm glad that other people accept that 25 minutes is not enough time.
Profit Max.
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Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. I work on the ground, not in the air. I see crews rushing to complete all that is required in limited time and I see ramp teams attempting to achive safe, efficient turnrounds under pressure of the 25 minute time scale.
My point was that although the channel 4 program proberly gave a worst case picture of a respected airline, it did high light to the unaware and confirm to those that know, the corners that are cut to achive a desired service.
My point was that although the channel 4 program proberly gave a worst case picture of a respected airline, it did high light to the unaware and confirm to those that know, the corners that are cut to achive a desired service.
Ryanair now has a "customer fight back" page with a total of ten letters from "customers" and former staff telling MOL what a wonderful thing Ryanair is. Bit light on for 30 million pax don't you think?
I was also suprised to learn that Ryanair actually HAS a Customer Service manager, one would have thought you would need to be awfully thick skinned?
I was also suprised to learn that Ryanair actually HAS a Customer Service manager, one would have thought you would need to be awfully thick skinned?
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Out of interest, how many here have seen any of the written exams being set by the various authorities?
Those who have experience of such exams are only too acutely aware of the stupidity, irrelevance and obscurity of a large proportion of the questions. Trick wording is used extensively as a deliberate policy.
In the programme, for example, I deduced that the lecturer was helping the cabin crew candidate with a question which was based upon one country having a Dept. for Transport and the other having a Dept of Transport. There's a prime example of the sort of bull***t.
By all means have closed book exams, but lets see some relevant questions!
Those who have experience of such exams are only too acutely aware of the stupidity, irrelevance and obscurity of a large proportion of the questions. Trick wording is used extensively as a deliberate policy.
In the programme, for example, I deduced that the lecturer was helping the cabin crew candidate with a question which was based upon one country having a Dept. for Transport and the other having a Dept of Transport. There's a prime example of the sort of bull***t.
By all means have closed book exams, but lets see some relevant questions!
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I've a mate who works in FR, he got his type rating in a Lucky Bag.
He thinks FR are brill!
He thinks FR are brill!
He thinks Ryanair are far from brill!
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I'm sorry to see everyone get their knickers in a bind over training and "EXAMS" 
Where I come from it's the airline and not the FAA that determines whether or not an exam is open or closed book. After all, on the aircraft, why are all of these manuals at our disposal. Exams are a not block filler when in training. They must be objective and have a difinitive answer without ambiguities that can be cited directly from materials used during the course of training. In the past, I've designed exams which timed for an important reason. Manuals were required for my exams. It's a method to make sure that students were able to navigate our manual system. It was also a good method to ensure our manuals were user friendly. After all in the heat of the battle, in flight, you want to be able to find your way around the Companys' Aircraft Operations Manuals, Emergency Response Manual, Company General Operations Manual... etc.
Where I come from it's the airline and not the FAA that determines whether or not an exam is open or closed book. After all, on the aircraft, why are all of these manuals at our disposal. Exams are a not block filler when in training. They must be objective and have a difinitive answer without ambiguities that can be cited directly from materials used during the course of training. In the past, I've designed exams which timed for an important reason. Manuals were required for my exams. It's a method to make sure that students were able to navigate our manual system. It was also a good method to ensure our manuals were user friendly. After all in the heat of the battle, in flight, you want to be able to find your way around the Companys' Aircraft Operations Manuals, Emergency Response Manual, Company General Operations Manual... etc.
Last edited by captjns; 16th Feb 2006 at 09:13.
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Ryanair now has a "customer fight back" page with a total of ten letters from "customers" and former staff telling MOL what a wonderful thing Ryanair is. Bit light on for 30 million pax don't you think?
I was also suprised to learn that Ryanair actually HAS a Customer Service manager, one would have thought you would need to be awfully thick skinned?
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On the security issue. BAA security is at fault here. The longest I heard of a guy being on a tempory pass is 18 months. This has nothing to do with Ryanair. In order to get a pass you need a security check. This takes several weeks. It is only valid for a short time. It then goes to BAA and joins the queue. By the time BAA get to it the security check is out of date and the process starts from the beginning again. My own pass came without any such hitches but still took 6 months.
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If your company obtains the necessary references (with no gaps) and submits to BAA with the correct forms, the turn round time can be less than 1 month. Mine took 3 weeks to process.
Seperately, although possibly connected, are RYR still in search of a Personnel Officer at STN ??
Seperately, although possibly connected, are RYR still in search of a Personnel Officer at STN ??
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There were some things in the Channel 4 programme which were not entirely down to Ryanair and show up Channel 4's lack of knowledge with their subject. We know this is often the case with journalists. However sufficient relevant points were thrown up by the programme to warrant an investigation, if nothing else but to remove concerns which the public will now have after the programme. Also to show the public that the authorities concerned (IAA and CAA) are on top of the matter.
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Working from home in the UK to hold down a job based in Sweden, I have flown Rynair to Skavsta since 1997 more times than I can possibly remember. In fact, without (broadband ADSL and) low cost travel I wouldn't have this luxury. From my library of [email protected] e-mails received over the past year I have averaged about £60 return, plus £30 in car park charges, £15 in Flybussarna coach tickets, and 120 miles of running cost for the car. Bargain.
Of course, unlike my regular long haul business class travel with other airlines I:
> don't enjoy the Ryanair experience in the slightest
> hate the endless adverts and commercial promotions
> grimmace at the appalling grammar of the recorded preflight announcement
> detest being herded like livestock
> wish that food went beyond the junk variety
> wish that food was actually in stock on the last flight of the day
> rue the decision to order new a/c without reclining seats
...but it remains true that for my tuppence ha'ppeny I have:
> never had baggage lost
> been notified in good time via e-mail of the two schedule changes that occurred
> been delayed beyond 30 minutes only twice (max 2 hours) with the vast majority of arrivals on time (probably due to creative scheduling but at least this means I can plan my day)
> never seen staff asleep on the job
> never felt unsafe within my ability to perceive (I am no airline safety expert by any stretch but am observant and perceptive to machine operation and crew behaviour)
So, I do feel that VFM is given, but I don't see the need to screw and screw and screw every last penny. For this reason I rue the demise of DUO who I used to fly with from Birmingham to Goteborg. That really was VFM as it struck a balance between low fares without being the lowest screwed-to-the-penny low fares and gave service and decorum (as an aside in a beautiful aeroplane!) with it. A shame that either the marketing was inept or the business model fundamentally flawed. This leaves easyJet as my short haul carrier of choice; some of the GO approach seems to live on and as well as the plus points of Ryanair applying here too, I actually enjoy most of these frequent flights.
Of course, unlike my regular long haul business class travel with other airlines I:
> don't enjoy the Ryanair experience in the slightest
> hate the endless adverts and commercial promotions
> grimmace at the appalling grammar of the recorded preflight announcement
> detest being herded like livestock
> wish that food went beyond the junk variety
> wish that food was actually in stock on the last flight of the day
> rue the decision to order new a/c without reclining seats
...but it remains true that for my tuppence ha'ppeny I have:
> never had baggage lost
> been notified in good time via e-mail of the two schedule changes that occurred
> been delayed beyond 30 minutes only twice (max 2 hours) with the vast majority of arrivals on time (probably due to creative scheduling but at least this means I can plan my day)
> never seen staff asleep on the job
> never felt unsafe within my ability to perceive (I am no airline safety expert by any stretch but am observant and perceptive to machine operation and crew behaviour)
So, I do feel that VFM is given, but I don't see the need to screw and screw and screw every last penny. For this reason I rue the demise of DUO who I used to fly with from Birmingham to Goteborg. That really was VFM as it struck a balance between low fares without being the lowest screwed-to-the-penny low fares and gave service and decorum (as an aside in a beautiful aeroplane!) with it. A shame that either the marketing was inept or the business model fundamentally flawed. This leaves easyJet as my short haul carrier of choice; some of the GO approach seems to live on and as well as the plus points of Ryanair applying here too, I actually enjoy most of these frequent flights.
Oops pardon me
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Security
One of the things the program shows up is what a joke security is at airports.
In this country, apart from the BAA group of airports, each establishment seems to have its own set of rules and regulations.
Another thing you notice is the lack of consistancy with security staff when it comes to applying the said rules.
Isnt it about time we had a common UK airport ID system? And given that to obtain a UK airside pass you need to pass all the "strict" checking process,why do they allow people temporary ID cards with such limited checking?
The whole system needs an overhaul. I am sure there are some aspects of security we can be proud of. Some establishments seem to get the balance just right between applying the rules and allowing the everyday flow of an airport to run smooth. Others can be just bloody minded empire builders!
It would be simpler to be very strict and say you don't work airside without a fully verified permanent ID card. This should be valid at all UK airports but controlled as personnel require access.
The government is responsible for this mess. If one organisation controlled all UK airport security from the start, then by now we would have had a streamlined slick system in operation. It would also make it very simple to check for terrorist activety with a common controlling authority.
I am not having a go at security staff. They do a difficult and sometimes tiresome job within a poor control framework. Maybe better pay, better training and upping the status of a security officer may reap rewards. Trying to do it on a minmum budget only leads to complacency and lack of interest.
Ryanair may be guilty of a few indescressions but perhaps Dispatches should look at something much more lacking. The state of security at UK airfields!!!
Coop & Bear
PS Having fitted numerous bullet proof, electric latch, anti terrorist cockpit doors to aircraft in my varied career, why did that Ryanair Captain let that passenger in the cockpit?? Surely not a wise move at all!!!
In this country, apart from the BAA group of airports, each establishment seems to have its own set of rules and regulations.
Another thing you notice is the lack of consistancy with security staff when it comes to applying the said rules.
Isnt it about time we had a common UK airport ID system? And given that to obtain a UK airside pass you need to pass all the "strict" checking process,why do they allow people temporary ID cards with such limited checking?
The whole system needs an overhaul. I am sure there are some aspects of security we can be proud of. Some establishments seem to get the balance just right between applying the rules and allowing the everyday flow of an airport to run smooth. Others can be just bloody minded empire builders!
It would be simpler to be very strict and say you don't work airside without a fully verified permanent ID card. This should be valid at all UK airports but controlled as personnel require access.
The government is responsible for this mess. If one organisation controlled all UK airport security from the start, then by now we would have had a streamlined slick system in operation. It would also make it very simple to check for terrorist activety with a common controlling authority.
I am not having a go at security staff. They do a difficult and sometimes tiresome job within a poor control framework. Maybe better pay, better training and upping the status of a security officer may reap rewards. Trying to do it on a minmum budget only leads to complacency and lack of interest.
Ryanair may be guilty of a few indescressions but perhaps Dispatches should look at something much more lacking. The state of security at UK airfields!!!
Coop & Bear
PS Having fitted numerous bullet proof, electric latch, anti terrorist cockpit doors to aircraft in my varied career, why did that Ryanair Captain let that passenger in the cockpit?? Surely not a wise move at all!!!
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...if nothing else but to remove concerns which the public will now have after the programme. Also to show the public that the authorities concerned (IAA and CAA) are on top of the matter.[/QUOTE]
I've been following this thread with interest. Got to make a couple of observations:-
1) This programme is already old news, received relatively little media coverage (in fact the pre-puff about the programme being shown seemed to receive more) and has now been consigned to the metephorical chip paper bin.
2) I tried watching said programme but got bored by the lack of real content - definitely a case of trying to spread too little too far - and so switched off... Suspect most casual / non-industry viewers did the same or went and made a cup of tea...
3) Remember the old adage about "no such thing as bad publicity". I reckon MOL and Ryanair are just luvvin' all the attention.
Time to move on and wait and see if the IAA & CAA take any interest.
Regards to all,
Fast Eddie Ginley (not a FR employee / fan / shareholder - but a sometime customer)
I've been following this thread with interest. Got to make a couple of observations:-
1) This programme is already old news, received relatively little media coverage (in fact the pre-puff about the programme being shown seemed to receive more) and has now been consigned to the metephorical chip paper bin.
2) I tried watching said programme but got bored by the lack of real content - definitely a case of trying to spread too little too far - and so switched off... Suspect most casual / non-industry viewers did the same or went and made a cup of tea...
3) Remember the old adage about "no such thing as bad publicity". I reckon MOL and Ryanair are just luvvin' all the attention.
Time to move on and wait and see if the IAA & CAA take any interest.
Regards to all,
Fast Eddie Ginley (not a FR employee / fan / shareholder - but a sometime customer)