Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
Originally Posted by captjns
I have flown for many carriers over many years. We got it right the majority of the times. Unfortunately all does not go to plan. You improvise, adapt and overcome, and make it happen.
We have all had moments like these, when things have not gone to plan, but doing it right is what stops us all making a smoking hole in the ground. We all tend to take security for granted these days and some of the stuff that comes out of the DfT is farsical, but making sure that you have the right people on the right flight is not one of them. Checking passports is not one of them, nor a security check of the aircraft after every sector. We have delayed flights and rechecked every passanger when we think this has not been done, and will continue to do so.
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[quote=Jonty]Isnt that doing it right?!
To think that it's done 100%, 100% of the time is delusional, or arrogant. And yes... every airline I have been with has delayed flights do to imroper documentation not caught at the ticket counter... at the immegration check point... and at the boarding gate by the gate agent, whether contracted, or company employees. Even had to wait 1:30 minutes to off load one bag from a 747. In an ideal world it would be nice if all concerned with a flight were not pressured by schedules... but that's not reality... is it. The best we can do... is do the best we can do, and remove those who intentially don't wish to contribute to any airlines' operations.
To think that it's done 100%, 100% of the time is delusional, or arrogant. And yes... every airline I have been with has delayed flights do to imroper documentation not caught at the ticket counter... at the immegration check point... and at the boarding gate by the gate agent, whether contracted, or company employees. Even had to wait 1:30 minutes to off load one bag from a 747. In an ideal world it would be nice if all concerned with a flight were not pressured by schedules... but that's not reality... is it. The best we can do... is do the best we can do, and remove those who intentially don't wish to contribute to any airlines' operations.
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I find it absolutely incredible that the Captain does not have the authority to do whatever is necessary to contain or handle any situation that he finds himself in. When I worked for Dan Air the first sentence of the Captains Terms of Reference said that the Captain was a Senior Executive of the Company. He carried a company credit card, and as much money in company travellers cheques as he deemed necessary for potential emergencies. Fortunately my present company treats its captains in a similar way, although the terms of reference are not quite so specific (perhaps an example of rot starting to set in aviation in general).
The captain that we saw needs to move on and get out and leave Ryanair behind. The same goes for anyone else who doesn't feel confident enough to do the job without being cowered into such a pathetic position.
The captain that we saw needs to move on and get out and leave Ryanair behind. The same goes for anyone else who doesn't feel confident enough to do the job without being cowered into such a pathetic position.
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Lads,
As regards the non-checking of ID, I think the same can happen with all airlines. I flew with BMI over the weekend, Dublin to London. At Dublin my ID was not checked at all. I checked in online and had to exchange my home printed boarding card for an official one at the check in desk. The girl at check in did not ask for any ID. At Heathrow I checked in at the automated check in machine. On boarding the flight the hostess didn't even examine my driving licence which I had in my hand.
As regards the non-checking of ID, I think the same can happen with all airlines. I flew with BMI over the weekend, Dublin to London. At Dublin my ID was not checked at all. I checked in online and had to exchange my home printed boarding card for an official one at the check in desk. The girl at check in did not ask for any ID. At Heathrow I checked in at the automated check in machine. On boarding the flight the hostess didn't even examine my driving licence which I had in my hand.
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Fiftyfour.....How can you be stupidly pompous, the skipper followed HIS company's SOPs.....in the event of disruption the pax get nothing, or the minimum legal entitlement. So he and his FO had a bitch, at the end of a shift you go tech, have you never had a bitch to while away a couple of hours, how was he to know he was being recorded. He chose not to tell the pax there was a possible diversion to LTN, probably because he or ops were negotiating an extension at STN, so what if he was flippant.How many hundreds of hours of footage was edited with nothing of substance before arriving at this hour of drivel. Was the hidden camera never detected at a security point. Are these two journalists going to face prosecution for concealing their TRUE identity, doubt it. Tell me any company that verifies every detail in every CV, impossible. The system for all airlines and airports to background check is becoming very difficult due to the system and the authorities. FR have made air travel accessible to many who before could not afford, tell me now they want to complain about it. When there is a choice I will not fly FR. Some of what was shown last night though I have seen when flying with conventional carriers. It's not always perfect!
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I've only watched half of it, but two things have really struck me so far:
None of the cabin staff told the Captain about the low slide bottle pressure, and the Captain was apparently powerless to delay boarding.
These two are linked - basically, the Captain has been downgraded to just another piece in the jigsaw, not the key man on site.
I cannot think of another operator where the Captain would not have been told about the slide. And I cannot believe any Captain would allow boarding until the garbage had been cleared, puke cleaned up and security checks completed.
Pilots whose first and only job is Ryanair presumably regard this as the norm - but believe me, guys, the rest of the world (even most of the third world) is doing it differently!
The culture of this company has to be addressed. Where are the regulators? You must be very proud of yourselves and/or very scared of MOL.
None of the cabin staff told the Captain about the low slide bottle pressure, and the Captain was apparently powerless to delay boarding.
These two are linked - basically, the Captain has been downgraded to just another piece in the jigsaw, not the key man on site.
I cannot think of another operator where the Captain would not have been told about the slide. And I cannot believe any Captain would allow boarding until the garbage had been cleared, puke cleaned up and security checks completed.
Pilots whose first and only job is Ryanair presumably regard this as the norm - but believe me, guys, the rest of the world (even most of the third world) is doing it differently!
The culture of this company has to be addressed. Where are the regulators? You must be very proud of yourselves and/or very scared of MOL.
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As regards the non-checking of ID, I think the same can happen with all airlines. I flew with BMI over the weekend, Dublin to London. At Dublin my ID was not checked at all. I checked in online and had to exchange my home printed boarding card for an official one at the check in desk. The girl at check in did not ask for any ID. At Heathrow I checked in at the automated check in machine. On boarding the flight the hostess didn't even examine my driving licence which I had in my hand.
Can't help but think that Ryanair gave C4 a heads up about the filming in the air issue in one of their letters. It was quite comical to hear C4 quote that under CAA rules...prohibited from filming in the air..blah blah.Yeah right. Maybe The Sun can get access to the editing studio and get hold of the film on the cutting room floor.
Its funny how the undercover reporters were so concerned with the safety breaches that they chose not to report them directly to the captain. Perhaps they don't value their lives or maybe there wasn't anything to report as Ryanair states? Who knows...
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In my day (not too long ago) we had sealed duty free bars that could be opened on the ground (with customs permission).
However, surely the days of duty free bars sealed (other than for security) are over in the EU. Duty Free doesn't exist any more.
I bet C4 couldn't believe their luck to have a three hour delay with hidden camera's/ microphones there to record it all.
The measure of a good company is not how good the service is when things go to plan but how well they cope when the plan falls apart!
To not even give the Captain authority to hand out soft drinks free of charge three hours into a delay on board (apart from water out of the tap..Yuk) is, for me, the measure of this company.
However, surely the days of duty free bars sealed (other than for security) are over in the EU. Duty Free doesn't exist any more.
I bet C4 couldn't believe their luck to have a three hour delay with hidden camera's/ microphones there to record it all.
The measure of a good company is not how good the service is when things go to plan but how well they cope when the plan falls apart!
To not even give the Captain authority to hand out soft drinks free of charge three hours into a delay on board (apart from water out of the tap..Yuk) is, for me, the measure of this company.
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There are quite a number of posters on this thread who appear to be quite happy with the low standards of safety and security demonstrated by the programme. They state that all airlines are the same. Well God help us if they are!
I have flown as a captain for some years with another of these airlines that often gets side swiped by these people and that is easyJet (be specific if you are going to accuse others!). I have never been in the position of boarding passengers when the cabin is not ready. I have had boarding while I was still doing the walk around check but the no.1 is always aware that the cabin must be ready before boarding starts. The dispatcher will always come and ask the no.1 if they are ready to start boarding.
Yes the easyJet tv programme is a bit embarassing but it only highlighted some check-in problems with passengers and nothing else.
I have flown as a captain for some years with another of these airlines that often gets side swiped by these people and that is easyJet (be specific if you are going to accuse others!). I have never been in the position of boarding passengers when the cabin is not ready. I have had boarding while I was still doing the walk around check but the no.1 is always aware that the cabin must be ready before boarding starts. The dispatcher will always come and ask the no.1 if they are ready to start boarding.
Yes the easyJet tv programme is a bit embarassing but it only highlighted some check-in problems with passengers and nothing else.
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jonty
I think that your post is put into perspective by your reference to ' an atco clocked them doing 75 on a taxiway........think about how fast 75 is. The aircraft internal monitoring systems would pick this up and it would be flagged up and traced back to the crew responsible, who would then be sacked!.If you are a pilot, something that i am not sure of for a hot head like yourself has no place on a flight deck, then you would know how fast 75 would look, being very close to the transition between low and high energy stopping. Trying to taxi at 75 on a standard taxiway would be very difficult. I can only conclude that you are talking out of your backside.
I do believe that this program served to show problems that are industry wide, ID's not being issued because the police are overwhelmed with the check's( this is the case in many industries where security pass checks are required to be issued via the disclosure scotland people).
Things that are unacceptable are checks not being properly carried out on the aircraft, this would be symptomatic of cronic fatigue and contempt through repitition, ( your average cabin crew performing probably in excess of 90 of these per month every month) the misconception that the flight deck are hurrying them to do the checks overly quickly ( the checks take as long as they take, the flight crew accept this , the cabin crew should tell the flight crew when they are ready.
Anyway i am getting off the original subject of my post which was to inform jonty that he speaks the worst kind of bottom gravy.
I think that your post is put into perspective by your reference to ' an atco clocked them doing 75 on a taxiway........think about how fast 75 is. The aircraft internal monitoring systems would pick this up and it would be flagged up and traced back to the crew responsible, who would then be sacked!.If you are a pilot, something that i am not sure of for a hot head like yourself has no place on a flight deck, then you would know how fast 75 would look, being very close to the transition between low and high energy stopping. Trying to taxi at 75 on a standard taxiway would be very difficult. I can only conclude that you are talking out of your backside.
I do believe that this program served to show problems that are industry wide, ID's not being issued because the police are overwhelmed with the check's( this is the case in many industries where security pass checks are required to be issued via the disclosure scotland people).
Things that are unacceptable are checks not being properly carried out on the aircraft, this would be symptomatic of cronic fatigue and contempt through repitition, ( your average cabin crew performing probably in excess of 90 of these per month every month) the misconception that the flight deck are hurrying them to do the checks overly quickly ( the checks take as long as they take, the flight crew accept this , the cabin crew should tell the flight crew when they are ready.
Anyway i am getting off the original subject of my post which was to inform jonty that he speaks the worst kind of bottom gravy.
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Some concern expressed in respect of some of the practices shown. I did not think it was that enlightenning at all. All that was shown was a very small part of the operation. As for the CC paying for training at least it ensures a vested intrest in the outcome. I would have thought they would have mentioned the F/O's that have to pay to achieve the required hours. Or did I miss it?
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I think that from a passengers point of view, there was very little to get excited about. They know that they're going to be treated as cattle on low cost flights, but they don't care because it's cheap. Re cabin crew falling asleep - they don't see that as a saftey issue at all. Just a delay in drinks service. The same with slide problems or missing life jackets - they all assume that any crash means 100% fatalities (that's why they don't watch the safety briefing).
One thing that was shown was that Ryanair will cancel services for safety reasons and that flight crew only 'work' 900 hours pa. For most pax, safety means working planes and well trained pilots. There was nothing in last nights show for them to get excited about. In fact, I've just had a look in today's Sun and can't find any reference to last night's programme.
One thing that was shown was that Ryanair will cancel services for safety reasons and that flight crew only 'work' 900 hours pa. For most pax, safety means working planes and well trained pilots. There was nothing in last nights show for them to get excited about. In fact, I've just had a look in today's Sun and can't find any reference to last night's programme.
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Brownstar, I am afraid you are wrong. FR were caught taxiing at warp speed, I think in this case its kind of like how big the fish you caught was. It seems to grow everytime one tells the story. The reported speed was 65 knots as I recall. There was a thread on it in Tech Log, but the new search engine doesn't appear to go back further then a few weeks ago. BOAC contributed to it, maybe you could contact him and he has it saved.
My 2c. I htink this "expose" was very thin on any sort of facts, which seemed even more pathetic after 6 months of filming. The Nasty corporate culture and fatigue were worthy of being highlighted, but the rest was utter tosh.
<<Edited: Sorry Boac, I hadn't noticed that since the upgrade. Brownstar , here you go read Captain Stables post :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ht=taxi+speeds
My 2c. I htink this "expose" was very thin on any sort of facts, which seemed even more pathetic after 6 months of filming. The Nasty corporate culture and fatigue were worthy of being highlighted, but the rest was utter tosh.
<<Edited: Sorry Boac, I hadn't noticed that since the upgrade. Brownstar , here you go read Captain Stables post :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ht=taxi+speeds
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There was a thread on it in Tech Log, but the new search engine doesn't appear to go back further then a few weeks ago.
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In Dublin's fair city, where the girls are so gritty, I first laid my eyes on......
This has been self evident since a co-pilot walked citing having been bullied and harrased(SIC) in the cockpit on arrival in PIK, the flight was delayed and the co-pilot dismissed.
You know very well that Cliodna (Shapely One, Bird goddess of the afterlife and daughter of the druid Gebann, also known as ex chief pilot Jim Duggan) stormed off the PIK aircraft, alright. You also know, yet curiously omit, that a reasonable person might suggest that her 'concerns', if that is the right word, were more perceived than real. A more reasonable person still, might advanced the notion that her actions were driven, and her resolve emboldened, by the fact that her daddy was the then chief pilot. Unrelated facts, you think?
As for Channel Four's much vaunted exposé last night, in qualitative journalistic terms the equivalent of a cruise up a sewer in an unseaworthy glass bottom boat, how very deflating. Me and the missus corked the wine, buttered the popcorn, only to experience....how would I describe it....premature emasculation? Five months, concealed cameras and thats the worst they could come up with? Minuteman, I feel for you so very desperately. You were surely quivering with anticipation and had, no doubt, been leading the chorus of the damned in rehearsals of "ding dong the witch is dead".
Oh well, better luck next time. In the meantime, here's some conciliatory reading from Kieran Daly of those plucky wordsmiths at Quadrant House, and the rather curious post scriptum he uploaded not 36 minutes later.
Happy aniversary, Giggsy. Here's to 18 more.
Faol saol agat agus bas in Eirinn.
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As others have said, unfortunately unless things get to a stage where there is a smoking hole in the ground, airline procedures (the stuff that is written down) and more importantly the culture (the stuff that isn't written down) will not be properly investigated by a governing body with the teeth to get something changed.
Ryan Air have ably demonstrated by means of written correspondence and copies of the relevant SOPs that they comply with the letter of the law.
The video evidence suggests that their "unwritten SOPs" (ie. their culture) means that on occasion some things are not done by the book. I know that Ryan Air are not alone in this - eg. SWMBO spent three years as CC at Monarch so I got to hear plenty of stories.
For me the biggest issues which came out of that programme were the impotence of the captain with the three hour delay (I thought he did the best he could considering the hand he'd been dealt) and the comment about the pilot who was demoted because he complained he was too tired to fly a sector.
Ryan Air have ably demonstrated by means of written correspondence and copies of the relevant SOPs that they comply with the letter of the law.
The video evidence suggests that their "unwritten SOPs" (ie. their culture) means that on occasion some things are not done by the book. I know that Ryan Air are not alone in this - eg. SWMBO spent three years as CC at Monarch so I got to hear plenty of stories.
For me the biggest issues which came out of that programme were the impotence of the captain with the three hour delay (I thought he did the best he could considering the hand he'd been dealt) and the comment about the pilot who was demoted because he complained he was too tired to fly a sector.
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I agree with you tallsandwich and while we both know that cabin crew's raison d'etre is safety, for all too many pax, they are a pair of tits with a trolley. Drunken pilots, un-airworthy aircraft, these are the stories tabloid headlines are made of - not catnapping CC.
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This is a true story, a while back a man got a heart attack in a toilet on a ryanair flight, the crew broke down the door with an axe to get him out, when they landed the aircraft was grounded until a replacement was found. Whats shocking is that none of the crew knew it could be opened from the outside using the so called '' dead mans bolt'', so simple all they had to do was flick up the lavatory sign and push the bolt. This is one example of the poor training done by ryanair.
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I reached an identical conclusion to silverelise
Those are quite significant issues, even if nobody is talking much about them. After all pilots have legal responsibilities and a duty of care to think about.
For me the biggest issues which came out of that programme were the impotence of the captain with the three hour delay ... and the comment about the pilot who was demoted because he complained he was too tired to fly a sector.