Attention BA staff and shareholders
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Well I am suprised by the reception that my first post recieved.
Thank you all.
I must say that I do not hold with my collegue THS, although in mitigation connex does seem to be getting his rag,I feel that maxy 101 has a very valid point, THS, and their post deserves to be scrutinised by you.
Diesel I feel that we may have crossed swords on a different forum perhaps you would be good enough to confirm if this is true, I actually agree, in the main, with your posting as the vast majority of piots I work alongside are solid professionals who do an outstanding job and recognise the role that the cabin crew perform.
Connex dear, dear, dear, what are you actually trying to achieve.
If you are a shareholder, as incidentaly I also am, what do you expect to gain from this agressive confrontational aproach, if you feel agreaved by these bonuses where is the benefit of shooting the horse because the stable boy has given it too much food.
I am certain, if indeed you are a true investor not a small potato's share holder like me, that you would normally look toward a more balanced global view.
The information I endevoured to put across should interest you a great deal more than small symptoms of mismanagement, which these bonuses clearly are.
If indeed my observations about the loss of cabin crew are correct think about the consequences of that.
If BA are losing cabin crewin the numbers I am saying, they are not losing the 4.80 mcburger crew you so eloquantly envisage they are losing the quality crew, as they are the ones that are having no problems finding better T&C.
BA will be left with a higher percentage of your mcburger's, this certainly will not improve our customer service, this is compounded by the old BOAC brigade retireing who by your own admission "I like your reference to “BOAC wan*ers” – from what I remember, they always were better at everything than your lot – even wan*ing, I expect." will weaken things further.
I do not have all the answers to this problem I wish I did but the one thing I do realise is that, for the sake of your's and my shares medium term viability, If cabin services fail so does the airline.
It is a mute point how well the A/C is flown or how good the engineering or anything else if the company has lost it's cabin service we have the life expectancy of a Dodo.
As for your comment of the 100 quid jackpot fruit machines I remember them, they were in all BA clubs not just the Viscount, but before you jump to incorrect assumptions my father worked for BA from before I was born and so, as it is in my blood so to speak, I have the companys well being at heart not just the value of its shares.
Don'tdoit What is your point?
Actually the cabin crew do have a license but they never hold it as it is deemed by the CAA to be held by the airline that the cabin crew work for.
I actually feel this is unfair as the cabin crew should take individual resposibility for it, much the same as our collegues in the flight deck do, It would certainly focus them to their resposibilities which would never be a bad thing.
Yes they can lose it for various reasons, for similar ones as pilots, and then no carrier would employ them.
If you are the same diesel that I think you are you will know that I am an advocate of all cabin crew going on to the same overall systems as flight crew, I feel that would bring huge benefits only one being that pilots would have better relations with their collegues in the cabin.
I realise that this would not cure all ills but it would be a start.
I wonder where the old BCal sealion has gone with the ol' benchmark gag?
C'est la vie.
Safe flying
Thank you all.
I must say that I do not hold with my collegue THS, although in mitigation connex does seem to be getting his rag,I feel that maxy 101 has a very valid point, THS, and their post deserves to be scrutinised by you.
Diesel I feel that we may have crossed swords on a different forum perhaps you would be good enough to confirm if this is true, I actually agree, in the main, with your posting as the vast majority of piots I work alongside are solid professionals who do an outstanding job and recognise the role that the cabin crew perform.
Connex dear, dear, dear, what are you actually trying to achieve.
If you are a shareholder, as incidentaly I also am, what do you expect to gain from this agressive confrontational aproach, if you feel agreaved by these bonuses where is the benefit of shooting the horse because the stable boy has given it too much food.
I am certain, if indeed you are a true investor not a small potato's share holder like me, that you would normally look toward a more balanced global view.
The information I endevoured to put across should interest you a great deal more than small symptoms of mismanagement, which these bonuses clearly are.
If indeed my observations about the loss of cabin crew are correct think about the consequences of that.
If BA are losing cabin crewin the numbers I am saying, they are not losing the 4.80 mcburger crew you so eloquantly envisage they are losing the quality crew, as they are the ones that are having no problems finding better T&C.
BA will be left with a higher percentage of your mcburger's, this certainly will not improve our customer service, this is compounded by the old BOAC brigade retireing who by your own admission "I like your reference to “BOAC wan*ers” – from what I remember, they always were better at everything than your lot – even wan*ing, I expect." will weaken things further.
I do not have all the answers to this problem I wish I did but the one thing I do realise is that, for the sake of your's and my shares medium term viability, If cabin services fail so does the airline.
It is a mute point how well the A/C is flown or how good the engineering or anything else if the company has lost it's cabin service we have the life expectancy of a Dodo.
As for your comment of the 100 quid jackpot fruit machines I remember them, they were in all BA clubs not just the Viscount, but before you jump to incorrect assumptions my father worked for BA from before I was born and so, as it is in my blood so to speak, I have the companys well being at heart not just the value of its shares.
Don'tdoit What is your point?
Actually the cabin crew do have a license but they never hold it as it is deemed by the CAA to be held by the airline that the cabin crew work for.
I actually feel this is unfair as the cabin crew should take individual resposibility for it, much the same as our collegues in the flight deck do, It would certainly focus them to their resposibilities which would never be a bad thing.
Yes they can lose it for various reasons, for similar ones as pilots, and then no carrier would employ them.
If you are the same diesel that I think you are you will know that I am an advocate of all cabin crew going on to the same overall systems as flight crew, I feel that would bring huge benefits only one being that pilots would have better relations with their collegues in the cabin.
I realise that this would not cure all ills but it would be a start.
I wonder where the old BCal sealion has gone with the ol' benchmark gag?
C'est la vie.
Safe flying
Thread Starter
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Hi all, swiss_tonni here again
My, I seem to have touched a raw nerve with a few people!
Firstly, dont shoot the messenger. Us "suits" at waterside dont wear a "uniform" provided by our employer. We have to wear "neat business attire" as could reasonably be expected at most corporate headquarters. So, you just have to accept that our uniform is a suit.
Not all the "suits" at Waterside are "da management". There are indians, as well as chiefs, at waterside. We work with and for our colleagues in Engineering, Flight Crew, Cabin Crew, Sales and Marketing, Revenue Management, IM etc............take away all the "suits" and the business would stop........eventually.
I suggested benchmarking by outside consultants, as I thought their findings may be more easily accepted by all work-groups. A similar exercise was done in the run-up to privatisation (the old, but still excellent book "Struggle for lift-off" details it for those of you too young to have experienced it.)
Now, to my detractors:
Heavy Crew: The cheeseboard Colleagues informed me at the time that the cheeseboard was given up by the pilots to help fund the pension for Flight Engineer Officers who were being made redundant.
Things not mentioned in Waterworlds ivory towers Things are mentioned, but there are managers who are climbing the greasy pole and who dont act on it. Good news seems to get passed upward, but bad news doesnt. When it does, its so rarely that people like Mike Street don't believe it.
Will you perhaps state what the new and old salary scales for cabin crew are?
Will you state the payments the cabin crew get for a Box A, Box B, Box C, Box D, and Box E?
Will you state the payment made to each cabin crew member for operating to an "unpopular destination"?
Will you state the payment for operating through the purpose built CAT lounge?
If you changed from being paid on the greater of actual or scheduled times, to just scheduled times, there wouldnt be the massive leap from, say, a Box D to a Box E for being a few minutes late. Everyone in the company is aware that sometimes you ask the pilots "for a slow taxy" so that you achieve the next Box payment. It could save the company quite a bit (might be worth considering you know!)
Post Sept 11, one crew member removed I note from Mike Harington's recent letter (now faxed widely within BA) that the GPM (inflight survey forms) do not have to be handed out when a crew is working "one down". Surely this allows the CSD to pitch in and help to a greater degree, as anyone ins a "manager" or "director" role should be able to, and willing to.
BA crews worse off than Virgin or Ryanair I seriously disagree!! I think you are well paid, that you do have good conditions, and that you personally are living in a fools paradise.
Wishing it were true You said that your take home pay is about 1/3 of 67k, so about 22.3k after tax, N.I, Pension, and FSRC are deducted. It really is a very good salary. Have a look in the employment pages and compare!!
Benchmarking would improve your salary, benefits and T&C's I really dont think so, again, check the newspapers and industry publications.
ThS Basic pay of 10.8k ? What is your total average gross pay?
Employed by BA because of your "perfect" skills, you do a "perfect" job . No problem with your self worth then.
disappointed You deal with sick people, dead people, bereaved people etc, well so do many ground staff, and loads of people in other occupations, for a whole lot less. Its part of the job!!
So BA offered £ 'ss without any discussion or negotiation? If that is true then someone needs to be sacked. I have heard from one source that over 50 flights have departed with one Cabin Crew member down. Everyone needs to realise if we want to keeps the company going, we need to reduce costs. Its not a joke. If we dont, there will be no BA.
To everyone else Its such a shame that some workgroups within the airline refuse to see that things have to change. A long term view has to be taken, our pre-occupation with going from one month to the next, only assures our survival from one month to the next.
All Staff, and All Unions have to realise the situation we are in. Without the realisation, there will be no desire to change.
If the there is no change, in a couple of years there will be no BA.
Think about it. Question your managers and your unions. If we dont do anything, BA will disappear.
Have a look in the papers and industry publications and consider if redundacy happened tomorrow, would anyone else pay you the same for the same job? You might realise that we are all on a very good wicket. A small change might be better to achieve a long term future.
Senior Management and Directors need to feel the pain, and show humility. Mike Street and co should accept a smaller number of share options, not an ever increasing number. Management cars should be smaller and cheaper (no pain, no gain)
We need leadership, we need to accept that there is a problem, and we need to change.
Toodle pip
Swiss_Tonni
[SIZE=1/2] Working for an airline is a lot like making love to a beautifull woman ( lost on those who didnt watch The Fast Show!)[/SIZE]
My, I seem to have touched a raw nerve with a few people!
Firstly, dont shoot the messenger. Us "suits" at waterside dont wear a "uniform" provided by our employer. We have to wear "neat business attire" as could reasonably be expected at most corporate headquarters. So, you just have to accept that our uniform is a suit.
Not all the "suits" at Waterside are "da management". There are indians, as well as chiefs, at waterside. We work with and for our colleagues in Engineering, Flight Crew, Cabin Crew, Sales and Marketing, Revenue Management, IM etc............take away all the "suits" and the business would stop........eventually.
I suggested benchmarking by outside consultants, as I thought their findings may be more easily accepted by all work-groups. A similar exercise was done in the run-up to privatisation (the old, but still excellent book "Struggle for lift-off" details it for those of you too young to have experienced it.)
Now, to my detractors:
Heavy Crew: The cheeseboard Colleagues informed me at the time that the cheeseboard was given up by the pilots to help fund the pension for Flight Engineer Officers who were being made redundant.
Things not mentioned in Waterworlds ivory towers Things are mentioned, but there are managers who are climbing the greasy pole and who dont act on it. Good news seems to get passed upward, but bad news doesnt. When it does, its so rarely that people like Mike Street don't believe it.
Will you perhaps state what the new and old salary scales for cabin crew are?
Will you state the payments the cabin crew get for a Box A, Box B, Box C, Box D, and Box E?
Will you state the payment made to each cabin crew member for operating to an "unpopular destination"?
Will you state the payment for operating through the purpose built CAT lounge?
If you changed from being paid on the greater of actual or scheduled times, to just scheduled times, there wouldnt be the massive leap from, say, a Box D to a Box E for being a few minutes late. Everyone in the company is aware that sometimes you ask the pilots "for a slow taxy" so that you achieve the next Box payment. It could save the company quite a bit (might be worth considering you know!)
Post Sept 11, one crew member removed I note from Mike Harington's recent letter (now faxed widely within BA) that the GPM (inflight survey forms) do not have to be handed out when a crew is working "one down". Surely this allows the CSD to pitch in and help to a greater degree, as anyone ins a "manager" or "director" role should be able to, and willing to.
BA crews worse off than Virgin or Ryanair I seriously disagree!! I think you are well paid, that you do have good conditions, and that you personally are living in a fools paradise.
Wishing it were true You said that your take home pay is about 1/3 of 67k, so about 22.3k after tax, N.I, Pension, and FSRC are deducted. It really is a very good salary. Have a look in the employment pages and compare!!
Benchmarking would improve your salary, benefits and T&C's I really dont think so, again, check the newspapers and industry publications.
ThS Basic pay of 10.8k ? What is your total average gross pay?
Employed by BA because of your "perfect" skills, you do a "perfect" job . No problem with your self worth then.
disappointed You deal with sick people, dead people, bereaved people etc, well so do many ground staff, and loads of people in other occupations, for a whole lot less. Its part of the job!!
So BA offered £ 'ss without any discussion or negotiation? If that is true then someone needs to be sacked. I have heard from one source that over 50 flights have departed with one Cabin Crew member down. Everyone needs to realise if we want to keeps the company going, we need to reduce costs. Its not a joke. If we dont, there will be no BA.
To everyone else Its such a shame that some workgroups within the airline refuse to see that things have to change. A long term view has to be taken, our pre-occupation with going from one month to the next, only assures our survival from one month to the next.
All Staff, and All Unions have to realise the situation we are in. Without the realisation, there will be no desire to change.
If the there is no change, in a couple of years there will be no BA.
Think about it. Question your managers and your unions. If we dont do anything, BA will disappear.
Have a look in the papers and industry publications and consider if redundacy happened tomorrow, would anyone else pay you the same for the same job? You might realise that we are all on a very good wicket. A small change might be better to achieve a long term future.
Senior Management and Directors need to feel the pain, and show humility. Mike Street and co should accept a smaller number of share options, not an ever increasing number. Management cars should be smaller and cheaper (no pain, no gain)
We need leadership, we need to accept that there is a problem, and we need to change.
Toodle pip
Swiss_Tonni
[SIZE=1/2] Working for an airline is a lot like making love to a beautifull woman ( lost on those who didnt watch The Fast Show!)[/SIZE]
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Heavy
Yup it's me! Got fed up doing DIY on my days off so here I am...
As for being on the same work system - sounds like a good idea to me. It would probably lead to Flt ops and IFS becoming one - perhaps a lot of people would not like that and therein is the problem.
Swiss-toni,
I suspect it would be very unwise of any CC member to openly print salary details as you request on a a public forum. Such info can be manipulated and before you know it there's something in the Daily Mail attacking CC pay, claiming the reason the last flight you travelled on was late was the CC demanding this that or the other.
BA has c*cked up crewing and has asked the CC community to dig them out of a hole. In return a small number of people will benefit by receiving extra pay. If you turned up at work and your employer asked you to cover for your absent colleague and work late and then offered you x pounds to do it would you say "oh no don't pay me....."
The blame for this lies with whoever has allowed the management structure in BA to become so utterly ineffective and yet so able to dig itself out of self imposed holes by throwing money around, not with those lucky enough to be on the reeiving end.
Regards the request for slow taxi etc - got to say it's largely a thing of the past. More urban myth than reality.
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe CC are all sweetness and light. Nor any dept for that matter. Nor do I accept CC are poorly paid - In the main I suspect the opposite is usually true - However this particular mess has highlighted for me the dreadful way in which we are run rather than anything about CC.
If CC salary were all just salary, removing the titles for cat pymnt/destination paymnt/ETP/ etc.. perhaps what is earnt would seem less controversial. Do you object to the total salary being earnt or the manner in which it is earnt?
On the whole my CC colleagues do a good job in often difficult circumstances. They spend a great deal of time away from home and their loved ones and are paid, in the main, a good salary for that(IMHO). While I would personally take issue with their union's approach to on the day flexibilty I have to say that the current b*lls up is not their responsibilty at all.
Regards
Diesel
Yup it's me! Got fed up doing DIY on my days off so here I am...
As for being on the same work system - sounds like a good idea to me. It would probably lead to Flt ops and IFS becoming one - perhaps a lot of people would not like that and therein is the problem.
Swiss-toni,
I suspect it would be very unwise of any CC member to openly print salary details as you request on a a public forum. Such info can be manipulated and before you know it there's something in the Daily Mail attacking CC pay, claiming the reason the last flight you travelled on was late was the CC demanding this that or the other.
BA has c*cked up crewing and has asked the CC community to dig them out of a hole. In return a small number of people will benefit by receiving extra pay. If you turned up at work and your employer asked you to cover for your absent colleague and work late and then offered you x pounds to do it would you say "oh no don't pay me....."
The blame for this lies with whoever has allowed the management structure in BA to become so utterly ineffective and yet so able to dig itself out of self imposed holes by throwing money around, not with those lucky enough to be on the reeiving end.
Regards the request for slow taxi etc - got to say it's largely a thing of the past. More urban myth than reality.
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe CC are all sweetness and light. Nor any dept for that matter. Nor do I accept CC are poorly paid - In the main I suspect the opposite is usually true - However this particular mess has highlighted for me the dreadful way in which we are run rather than anything about CC.
If CC salary were all just salary, removing the titles for cat pymnt/destination paymnt/ETP/ etc.. perhaps what is earnt would seem less controversial. Do you object to the total salary being earnt or the manner in which it is earnt?
On the whole my CC colleagues do a good job in often difficult circumstances. They spend a great deal of time away from home and their loved ones and are paid, in the main, a good salary for that(IMHO). While I would personally take issue with their union's approach to on the day flexibilty I have to say that the current b*lls up is not their responsibilty at all.
Regards
Diesel
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swiss_tonni
QUOTE
"All Staff, and All Unions have to realise the situation we are in. Without the realisation, there will be no desire to change.
If the there is no change, in a couple of years there will be no BA.
Think about it. Question your managers and your unions. If we don't do anything, BA will disappear."
************************************************************ ************************************************
Then its probable going to disappear sadly,by that i don't mean that i want it too but how can i convince my manager to leave BA because that's what it needs to start the ball rolling with regards change.
Your probably thinking what on earth is he on about - We all know BA is vastly top heavy,all the sections are,you know it,i know it and the media know it - so how can that change?.
Option 1 _ The one preferred by My managers,Your managers in Water world and the 30% of non productive employees at BA ( who would love your call for you and me to get together and discuss our T + C changes ).
>>>> Get the productive staff to accept what amounts to a pay cut there by artificially correcting the situation and keeping them in long term employment they couldn't hope to reproduce elsewhere.
OR
Option 2 _ The common sense approach is to ask ,exactly what does BA as an airline need to run as a business and make money?
>> Pilots yes, Cabin crew yes,Admin staff yes, Managers - some ( big further list here but all productive staff - one way or the other )
Flight crew managers - need a few ( less than 10 i would think ), CSDs - nope don't need them, Engineering TEMs - Nope, 125 menu planners - Buy a PC for that, Feng shui consultants - having a laugh now >>> i could go on but it amounts to about 12000 staff in Non required jobs and we all know it.
The bottom line is BA will have no respect and will not be taken seriously by myself or others regardless what they say while them employ people to sit at home or offer people extra money to do the jobs they are employed for in the first place
I want option 2 my manager wants option 1 - What to do with this then?
QUOTE
"All Staff, and All Unions have to realise the situation we are in. Without the realisation, there will be no desire to change.
If the there is no change, in a couple of years there will be no BA.
Think about it. Question your managers and your unions. If we don't do anything, BA will disappear."
************************************************************ ************************************************
Then its probable going to disappear sadly,by that i don't mean that i want it too but how can i convince my manager to leave BA because that's what it needs to start the ball rolling with regards change.
Your probably thinking what on earth is he on about - We all know BA is vastly top heavy,all the sections are,you know it,i know it and the media know it - so how can that change?.
Option 1 _ The one preferred by My managers,Your managers in Water world and the 30% of non productive employees at BA ( who would love your call for you and me to get together and discuss our T + C changes ).
>>>> Get the productive staff to accept what amounts to a pay cut there by artificially correcting the situation and keeping them in long term employment they couldn't hope to reproduce elsewhere.
OR
Option 2 _ The common sense approach is to ask ,exactly what does BA as an airline need to run as a business and make money?
>> Pilots yes, Cabin crew yes,Admin staff yes, Managers - some ( big further list here but all productive staff - one way or the other )
Flight crew managers - need a few ( less than 10 i would think ), CSDs - nope don't need them, Engineering TEMs - Nope, 125 menu planners - Buy a PC for that, Feng shui consultants - having a laugh now >>> i could go on but it amounts to about 12000 staff in Non required jobs and we all know it.
The bottom line is BA will have no respect and will not be taken seriously by myself or others regardless what they say while them employ people to sit at home or offer people extra money to do the jobs they are employed for in the first place
I want option 2 my manager wants option 1 - What to do with this then?
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Heavy Crew - I've just checked with the CAA, sorry, you don't have a licence, no more than the kid who works the fryer in Burger King has a licence to fry chips. The pilots have a licence which belongs to them, not the airline, but when the airline goes under, the plate layers do not have any professional qualification which can be taken elsewhere.
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Swiss Tony get your facts right before spouting out utter sh*te like most of your colleagues do in Waterworld on a regular basis!!
As mentionned previously the figures stated were the totals, not per hour, and it took the union virtually no time at all to get the company to agree those figures because the company knew it was their screw up. Yes, thats right yet another f**k up by yet another total incompetant sitting in an office drinking coffee and really doing nothing towards keeping passengers flying with us (someone probably a bit like yourself with nothing better to do during their working day than spread total bulls**t to make another department look bad, then go for another coffee break disguised as a meeting to plan a meeting to plan a meeting whilst relaxing in one of the cosmopolitan caffs on "the Street")
This money was also only paid to flights that actually did leave short, many didn't. My Los Angeles was fully crewed thank God, and even so with the scenes in the back galley half way through the flight it was just as well that it was fully crewed. Arguments left right and centre with passengers who were still hungry with four hours to go till the next meal service and nothing left for them to eat until then because some ar*e in an office (yes yet another one and there's plenty more where this one came from!!) has reduced the product on board so there aren't enough mid flight snacks to go round, then only having water (tap water courtesy of the boeing spring I might add), tea and coffee to serve with the second meal service because yet another incompetant ar*e in an office has reduced the amount of juices and canned drinks on board.
So to sum up my rant DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE OVERPAID UNDERWORKED CABIN CREW WHINGE THAT YOU LOT FROM THE OFFICES SPURT OUT ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS; ANY OF THE CREWS UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE GONE ONE DOWN AT THE WEEKEND WOULD HAVE WORKED THEIR AR*ES OFF FOR THE EXTRA MONEY AND GIVEN A CHOICE MOST WOULD HAVE RATHER HAD THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF CREW IN THE FIRST PLACE HAD "THE SUITS" NOT MADE ANOTHER FAMOUS FU*K UP!! CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT THE NEXT ONE IS GOING TO BE THEN WE CAN EARN EVEN MORE MONEY WHILE YOU LOT WORK OUT "DUH, WOT WENT WRONG THIS TIME????????????"
As mentionned previously the figures stated were the totals, not per hour, and it took the union virtually no time at all to get the company to agree those figures because the company knew it was their screw up. Yes, thats right yet another f**k up by yet another total incompetant sitting in an office drinking coffee and really doing nothing towards keeping passengers flying with us (someone probably a bit like yourself with nothing better to do during their working day than spread total bulls**t to make another department look bad, then go for another coffee break disguised as a meeting to plan a meeting to plan a meeting whilst relaxing in one of the cosmopolitan caffs on "the Street")
This money was also only paid to flights that actually did leave short, many didn't. My Los Angeles was fully crewed thank God, and even so with the scenes in the back galley half way through the flight it was just as well that it was fully crewed. Arguments left right and centre with passengers who were still hungry with four hours to go till the next meal service and nothing left for them to eat until then because some ar*e in an office (yes yet another one and there's plenty more where this one came from!!) has reduced the product on board so there aren't enough mid flight snacks to go round, then only having water (tap water courtesy of the boeing spring I might add), tea and coffee to serve with the second meal service because yet another incompetant ar*e in an office has reduced the amount of juices and canned drinks on board.
So to sum up my rant DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE OVERPAID UNDERWORKED CABIN CREW WHINGE THAT YOU LOT FROM THE OFFICES SPURT OUT ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS; ANY OF THE CREWS UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE GONE ONE DOWN AT THE WEEKEND WOULD HAVE WORKED THEIR AR*ES OFF FOR THE EXTRA MONEY AND GIVEN A CHOICE MOST WOULD HAVE RATHER HAD THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF CREW IN THE FIRST PLACE HAD "THE SUITS" NOT MADE ANOTHER FAMOUS FU*K UP!! CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT THE NEXT ONE IS GOING TO BE THEN WE CAN EARN EVEN MORE MONEY WHILE YOU LOT WORK OUT "DUH, WOT WENT WRONG THIS TIME????????????"
Last edited by Selhurst Parkie; 31st Mar 2004 at 13:57.
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Swiss - I never said I was poorly paid, I simply took issue with figures being bandied about here. As someone who has done twenty years and in a supervisory grade I think the remuneration package is adequate (no more) which is why I continue in the job.
[qoute] Will you perhaps state what the new and old salary scales for cabin crew are?
Will you state the payments the cabin crew get for a Box A, Box B, Box C, Box D, and Box E?
Will you state the payment made to each cabin crew member for operating to an "unpopular destination"?
Will you state the payment for operating through the purpose built CAT lounge? [/quote]
1. Will you publish on this site, the details & salary scales of your job?
2. No such thing as "Boxes A,B,C,D nor E. "
3. No such thing as an "Unpopular Destination" payment.
4. No idea as that is a EF payment, like comparing chalk & cheese.
Perhaps I am being pedantic but I have no intention of discussing particular elements of a departments pay package taken out of context. I have already disclosed my personal earnings over the past 12 months. Perhaps those who are criticising cabin crew payment should reveal details of their own pay packages?
[qoute] Will you perhaps state what the new and old salary scales for cabin crew are?
Will you state the payments the cabin crew get for a Box A, Box B, Box C, Box D, and Box E?
Will you state the payment made to each cabin crew member for operating to an "unpopular destination"?
Will you state the payment for operating through the purpose built CAT lounge? [/quote]
1. Will you publish on this site, the details & salary scales of your job?
2. No such thing as "Boxes A,B,C,D nor E. "
3. No such thing as an "Unpopular Destination" payment.
4. No idea as that is a EF payment, like comparing chalk & cheese.
Perhaps I am being pedantic but I have no intention of discussing particular elements of a departments pay package taken out of context. I have already disclosed my personal earnings over the past 12 months. Perhaps those who are criticising cabin crew payment should reveal details of their own pay packages?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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As for being on the same work system - sounds like a good idea to me. It would probably lead to Flt ops and IFS becoming one - perhaps a lot of people would not like that and therein is the problem.
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well thats me, wishing it were true, selhurst parkie
good postings..
maxy101
sorry i was a bit out of line, but it was what came out at the mo.
aswell, felt I can't be bothered with the energy to reply back to the .........
etrang
well, you may call it bad attitude, but I don't think so.
also, this is a forum and it can be a heated debate.
And if you think I would take my personal views and use them at work, then think again my friend. I wasn't born y-day.
Diesel
Sadly I would say, during my time with E/F made me very anti F/D
only coz I found them needy, greedy...
I bet there is a lot of good guys/girls out there, but if you have a few to many bad experiences, then I frankly can not be asked.
And in MY opinion, it hasn't really helped after the door got locked.
swiss tonni
WOW.. here we go...
what can I more say, then already been said by Selhurst, Well and wishing
will add a few things.. if you look at our salaries. If you live in London, with the cost of living and all.. We are NOT well paid.
and btw to all others...
what is wrong to be able and say, I was emplyed for my PERFECT skills and doing a PERFECT job! I know it's a VERY American way of thinking, but I did work for an American company before. I know I do a good job, and willing to learn more!
good postings..
maxy101
sorry i was a bit out of line, but it was what came out at the mo.
aswell, felt I can't be bothered with the energy to reply back to the .........
etrang
well, you may call it bad attitude, but I don't think so.
also, this is a forum and it can be a heated debate.
And if you think I would take my personal views and use them at work, then think again my friend. I wasn't born y-day.
Diesel
Sadly I would say, during my time with E/F made me very anti F/D
only coz I found them needy, greedy...
I bet there is a lot of good guys/girls out there, but if you have a few to many bad experiences, then I frankly can not be asked.
And in MY opinion, it hasn't really helped after the door got locked.
swiss tonni
WOW.. here we go...
what can I more say, then already been said by Selhurst, Well and wishing
will add a few things.. if you look at our salaries. If you live in London, with the cost of living and all.. We are NOT well paid.
and btw to all others...
what is wrong to be able and say, I was emplyed for my PERFECT skills and doing a PERFECT job! I know it's a VERY American way of thinking, but I did work for an American company before. I know I do a good job, and willing to learn more!
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OK don't doit how do they, the caa, know that whoever is operating on a BA a/c is qualified then?
To continue why do we take annual exams, just pay 90 people to constantly sit in cranebank and then just use anybody you like,just get an ID and bingo, after all all that training must be expensive eh?
Are you a muppet?
Don't answer it's patantly clear.
Thanks rescue3 I think you are correct, BA as I understand it have a blanket scheme that covers all crew which the CAA can inspect at will I assume.
In going back to cabin crew carrying their own as it would encourage a general feeling of ownership, that in itself being a benefit in encouraging crew to keep recent ect and improving standards.
To all people who feel that BA cabin crew are overpaid why have BA had to raise their recruitment start wage from 8k to just over 9k.
This raise has been highly unpopular within cabin crew because BA have raised the new entrant salary to the wage of the last recruits current salary.
So basically they have worked for over 5 years getting yearly increments and are only 3 years away from their wages being capped and the new recruits get the same wage as they do nice!
Why would the company need to do that to such overpaid people?
Are you aware that new crew with Ryan air earn aprox 25k per year, (now I accept that they pay for their own training, so probably hold their own licence) I may not wish to work for them but show me a BA Main crew member who gets to that not many even at LHR WW no chance for the rest like LGW WW and EF.
Are you also aware that Virgin pay considerably more basic salary to their new entrants than we do, I accept that once you get to the pinacles of LHR WW then you may edge ahead but our basic never catches them and theirs is not capped after 8 years,
Suffice to say that you have to get to LHR WW damn quick and that probably will not happen and I am not talking A fleet here you need to be at B div which means giving up promotion.
Therefore you always just fall back.
Oh yes lets say YEAH BUT A CSD EARNS MILLIONS.
Oh get a grip after how long?
Think about it,
Why do you think everyones leaving?
To continue why do we take annual exams, just pay 90 people to constantly sit in cranebank and then just use anybody you like,just get an ID and bingo, after all all that training must be expensive eh?
Are you a muppet?
Don't answer it's patantly clear.
Thanks rescue3 I think you are correct, BA as I understand it have a blanket scheme that covers all crew which the CAA can inspect at will I assume.
In going back to cabin crew carrying their own as it would encourage a general feeling of ownership, that in itself being a benefit in encouraging crew to keep recent ect and improving standards.
To all people who feel that BA cabin crew are overpaid why have BA had to raise their recruitment start wage from 8k to just over 9k.
This raise has been highly unpopular within cabin crew because BA have raised the new entrant salary to the wage of the last recruits current salary.
So basically they have worked for over 5 years getting yearly increments and are only 3 years away from their wages being capped and the new recruits get the same wage as they do nice!
Why would the company need to do that to such overpaid people?
Are you aware that new crew with Ryan air earn aprox 25k per year, (now I accept that they pay for their own training, so probably hold their own licence) I may not wish to work for them but show me a BA Main crew member who gets to that not many even at LHR WW no chance for the rest like LGW WW and EF.
Are you also aware that Virgin pay considerably more basic salary to their new entrants than we do, I accept that once you get to the pinacles of LHR WW then you may edge ahead but our basic never catches them and theirs is not capped after 8 years,
Suffice to say that you have to get to LHR WW damn quick and that probably will not happen and I am not talking A fleet here you need to be at B div which means giving up promotion.
Therefore you always just fall back.
Oh yes lets say YEAH BUT A CSD EARNS MILLIONS.
Oh get a grip after how long?
Think about it,
Why do you think everyones leaving?
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ThS
What a sad admission! There are something like 3500 pilots - have you met them all? The vast majority of FC I encounter are pleasant and friendly.
I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences. However your decision to become "anti FD" does you no credit.
I for one will not resort to condemning all my colleagues because of the occasional idiot I encounter. Perhaps if there were less generalisation we would all be able to be much happier at work?
Regards
Diesel
What a sad admission! There are something like 3500 pilots - have you met them all? The vast majority of FC I encounter are pleasant and friendly.
I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences. However your decision to become "anti FD" does you no credit.
I for one will not resort to condemning all my colleagues because of the occasional idiot I encounter. Perhaps if there were less generalisation we would all be able to be much happier at work?
Regards
Diesel
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The idea that a person can be generalised because of their job just cracks me up! If we all met in a pub could you seriously say all FD would be trumped up idiots, or that ALL cabin crew would be happy and charming. Think you need to look beyond the uniform, we weren't born to do our selected jobs! I guess all the JJ's had a personality transplant when they changed job?
The money mentioned here is for some of the top earners in CC, and yes it is a lot of money. What needs to be done is to put everyone on a fair, transparent system that will even out the rewards. There shouldn't be the disparity between LH and SH, it is the same job. People could then choose the lifestyle that actually suits them, and then the satisfaction levels might increase.
If people are leaving in droves then BA will be rubbing their hands with glee. More cheap new entrants to play off against the old contract, divide and rule, oldest trick in the book. Do Virgin worry that their staff only stay a few years, no, they positively encourage it. See the world for a years, full of enthusiasm and feeling of wonderment at the job, then leave and get a 'normal' job.
A benchmarking exercise for some BA crew would be financial suicide, and hence we haven't seen any such process.
The money mentioned here is for some of the top earners in CC, and yes it is a lot of money. What needs to be done is to put everyone on a fair, transparent system that will even out the rewards. There shouldn't be the disparity between LH and SH, it is the same job. People could then choose the lifestyle that actually suits them, and then the satisfaction levels might increase.
If people are leaving in droves then BA will be rubbing their hands with glee. More cheap new entrants to play off against the old contract, divide and rule, oldest trick in the book. Do Virgin worry that their staff only stay a few years, no, they positively encourage it. See the world for a years, full of enthusiasm and feeling of wonderment at the job, then leave and get a 'normal' job.
A benchmarking exercise for some BA crew would be financial suicide, and hence we haven't seen any such process.
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Human I am understandably interested in your last remark.
Are BA the only other company to work cabin crew to a differing system than the pilots.
If that is so I take it that means that other company's cabin crew have a limit of around 900 flying hours like pilots, by the fact that they are working to the same systems.
Or is that assumption incorrect?
fruit bat I do not feel that people should be forced to take basic salary pay cuts do you agree?
Therefore the restructuring may work for most but the guys at LHR B div will get a kicking if it goes ahead, but as it is not basic salary that we are talking about it should be possible.
I actually am in favour of pay restructuring for cabin crew as the present system only suits the very senior CSD'sand PSRs at B Div.
The CSD's would lose out somewhat the pursers however could go for promotion to mitigate their losses and after promotion should be better off, same for the main crew.
The current system encourages crew to avoid promotion and stay within the grade they are until their no comes round.
There must be a increase in crew morale when people can choose the lifestyle that suits and get promotion for more salary, rather than having to stay at LHRWW Bdiv because any move even promotion is a pay drop.
That system is insane.
Finaly your comment that a benchmark exercise would be finacial suicide, you are correct.
It would cost BA a packet especially if we used the same european carriers as the flight crew did.
Lets also not forget that BA are not rubbing their hands that much as many of the crew that are leaving ARE new contract, so no real saving just the cost of recruitment, training, uniform ect.
Are BA the only other company to work cabin crew to a differing system than the pilots.
If that is so I take it that means that other company's cabin crew have a limit of around 900 flying hours like pilots, by the fact that they are working to the same systems.
Or is that assumption incorrect?
fruit bat I do not feel that people should be forced to take basic salary pay cuts do you agree?
Therefore the restructuring may work for most but the guys at LHR B div will get a kicking if it goes ahead, but as it is not basic salary that we are talking about it should be possible.
I actually am in favour of pay restructuring for cabin crew as the present system only suits the very senior CSD'sand PSRs at B Div.
The CSD's would lose out somewhat the pursers however could go for promotion to mitigate their losses and after promotion should be better off, same for the main crew.
The current system encourages crew to avoid promotion and stay within the grade they are until their no comes round.
There must be a increase in crew morale when people can choose the lifestyle that suits and get promotion for more salary, rather than having to stay at LHRWW Bdiv because any move even promotion is a pay drop.
That system is insane.
Finaly your comment that a benchmark exercise would be finacial suicide, you are correct.
It would cost BA a packet especially if we used the same european carriers as the flight crew did.
Lets also not forget that BA are not rubbing their hands that much as many of the crew that are leaving ARE new contract, so no real saving just the cost of recruitment, training, uniform ect.
Last edited by heavy crew; 31st Mar 2004 at 12:52.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Sorry heavy,
Probably didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that BA is the only company in the world not to have their cabin crew run by the Flight Ops department. It is a source of a few troubles which is why the CAA are looking into it.
As far as hours limits go, my knowledge is only of BA. I'm sure it's normal for FC and CC to have different hourly limits (as per the discussion going on elsewhere on the web). Not saying I necessarily agree with it though ....
HF
Probably didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that BA is the only company in the world not to have their cabin crew run by the Flight Ops department. It is a source of a few troubles which is why the CAA are looking into it.
As far as hours limits go, my knowledge is only of BA. I'm sure it's normal for FC and CC to have different hourly limits (as per the discussion going on elsewhere on the web). Not saying I necessarily agree with it though ....
HF
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Senior Management and Directors need to feel the pain, and show humility. Mike Street and co should accept a smaller number of share options, not an ever increasing number. Management cars should be smaller and cheaper (no pain, no gain)
- Mike Street should accept the gold carriage clock and nothing else – ever.
- Management cars should be used for leaving the car park one last time.
It would probably lead to Flt ops and IFS becoming one - perhaps a lot of people would not like that and therein is the problem.
Get rid of 20000
Benchmark all departments
Yesterday.
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Ahh Human I take it I have you are the same human factor I have debated before, I think you may even have cotributed to the cabin crew don't work as many hours as pilots thread we had a week or so ago.
You are not a gullible fool by any measure enableing me to get people dragged into that old chestnut
Oh well seriously thanks for your comment I obviously feel that cabin crew should be working to the same 900 hours as pilots, after all pretty much all BA pilots yourself included get as near as possible to it and its Knackering.
No real aviator worth his salt would really want to operate an A/C with fatigued cabin crew would they?
Roobarb can I say that all deprtments are pretty much at or below benchmark, Honest.
The only people left above in all departments are people on the old contract for what they do.
Do you feel that the company should cut these peoples basic salary, I think it would be a brave person who did.
After all over a period of time they will all be gone, In cabin services the old contract are already outnumbered by the new and surely the company owes them the living they started on after all they have been long serving.
The only fat left in the company is in the Management level, Swiss toni and his friends.
The way to cure all BA's woes would be to set off the fire alarms at Waterside, compass and jubilee house at 0930 monday morning, once every one is lined up in the carpark lock the doors.
As the days go by, people will be needed, call them in from the carpark and let them get back to work.
Once we get to the next Monday morning go into the carpark and any body that is still standing there tell to F@CK OFF.
You are not a gullible fool by any measure enableing me to get people dragged into that old chestnut
Oh well seriously thanks for your comment I obviously feel that cabin crew should be working to the same 900 hours as pilots, after all pretty much all BA pilots yourself included get as near as possible to it and its Knackering.
No real aviator worth his salt would really want to operate an A/C with fatigued cabin crew would they?
Roobarb can I say that all deprtments are pretty much at or below benchmark, Honest.
The only people left above in all departments are people on the old contract for what they do.
Do you feel that the company should cut these peoples basic salary, I think it would be a brave person who did.
After all over a period of time they will all be gone, In cabin services the old contract are already outnumbered by the new and surely the company owes them the living they started on after all they have been long serving.
The only fat left in the company is in the Management level, Swiss toni and his friends.
The way to cure all BA's woes would be to set off the fire alarms at Waterside, compass and jubilee house at 0930 monday morning, once every one is lined up in the carpark lock the doors.
As the days go by, people will be needed, call them in from the carpark and let them get back to work.
Once we get to the next Monday morning go into the carpark and any body that is still standing there tell to F@CK OFF.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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You are not a gullible fool by any measure enableing me to get people dragged into that old chestnut
The way to cure all BA's woes would be to set off the fire alarms at Waterside, compass and jubilee house at 0930 monday morning, once every one is lined up in the carpark lock the doors.
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heavy crew
To respond to some of your points:
'how do they, the caa, know that whoever is operating on a BA a/c is qualified then?'
Because they audit BA and check their processes for ensuring such. They can't check that every single spare part in our engineering inventory is bona fide, but they audit our procurement process to ensure our regulations are compliant. I'm afraid don'tdoit is correct, there is no licence to be cabin crew. If you doubt this then ring the CAA and ask what they know about you. Unless you hold a PPL they won't even know your name. The idea of a cabin crew licence is a pipedream of someone in IFS Training, a department which was soundly slapped down by the CAA during their last audit (ever wonder why a prescribed briefing format and policing mangers turned up overnight?).
'To all people who feel that BA cabin crew are overpaid why have BA had to raise their recruitment start wage from 8k to just over 9k.'
Because they can't advertise the gross income. Still had over 20000 applicant for 300 places though.
'This raise has been highly unpopular within cabin crew because BA have raised the new entrant salary to the wage of the last recruits current salary.'
Yes that truly sucks. Typical IFS management ineptitude.
'Are you aware that new crew with Ryan air earn aprox 25k per year'
But they also work six sector days. The maximum you will get from any EF cabin crew will be four sectors in one day. Frequently they will only one work one sector into or out of a nightstop, and in the worst case (HEL standover) its one sector out, day off, one sector home. This week I've also been flying with crew who object to the new 'fixed link' trial, which would allow them to transit LHR with a 45 min turnaround. You can't expect to earn Ryanair money when you only do 2/3rds of the work.
'Are you also aware that Virgin pay considerably more basic salary to their new entrants than we do'
Not considerably. A bit more, and their take home pay is substantially less. I know people who've done both in the last twelve months, EF take home is about 30% more than Virgin.
', I accept that once you get to the pinacles of LHR WW then you may edge ahead but our basic never catches them and theirs is not capped after 8 years'
No its capped after one year. There is no annual increment. One grade, one pay scale, a 10 year IFS earns the same as a one year IFS.
'Finaly your comment that a benchmark exercise would be finacial suicide, you are correct.
It would cost BA a packet especially if we used the same european carriers as the flight crew did'
'
Depends who you benchmark against. The ex Air France crew (we have a few you know) seem to think it would work out roughly even ( more for main crew, much less for seniors). Against Lufthansa you'd just look exorbitant.
To respond to some of your points:
'how do they, the caa, know that whoever is operating on a BA a/c is qualified then?'
Because they audit BA and check their processes for ensuring such. They can't check that every single spare part in our engineering inventory is bona fide, but they audit our procurement process to ensure our regulations are compliant. I'm afraid don'tdoit is correct, there is no licence to be cabin crew. If you doubt this then ring the CAA and ask what they know about you. Unless you hold a PPL they won't even know your name. The idea of a cabin crew licence is a pipedream of someone in IFS Training, a department which was soundly slapped down by the CAA during their last audit (ever wonder why a prescribed briefing format and policing mangers turned up overnight?).
'To all people who feel that BA cabin crew are overpaid why have BA had to raise their recruitment start wage from 8k to just over 9k.'
Because they can't advertise the gross income. Still had over 20000 applicant for 300 places though.
'This raise has been highly unpopular within cabin crew because BA have raised the new entrant salary to the wage of the last recruits current salary.'
Yes that truly sucks. Typical IFS management ineptitude.
'Are you aware that new crew with Ryan air earn aprox 25k per year'
But they also work six sector days. The maximum you will get from any EF cabin crew will be four sectors in one day. Frequently they will only one work one sector into or out of a nightstop, and in the worst case (HEL standover) its one sector out, day off, one sector home. This week I've also been flying with crew who object to the new 'fixed link' trial, which would allow them to transit LHR with a 45 min turnaround. You can't expect to earn Ryanair money when you only do 2/3rds of the work.
'Are you also aware that Virgin pay considerably more basic salary to their new entrants than we do'
Not considerably. A bit more, and their take home pay is substantially less. I know people who've done both in the last twelve months, EF take home is about 30% more than Virgin.
', I accept that once you get to the pinacles of LHR WW then you may edge ahead but our basic never catches them and theirs is not capped after 8 years'
No its capped after one year. There is no annual increment. One grade, one pay scale, a 10 year IFS earns the same as a one year IFS.
'Finaly your comment that a benchmark exercise would be finacial suicide, you are correct.
It would cost BA a packet especially if we used the same european carriers as the flight crew did'
'
Depends who you benchmark against. The ex Air France crew (we have a few you know) seem to think it would work out roughly even ( more for main crew, much less for seniors). Against Lufthansa you'd just look exorbitant.
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Hello all, and the few bitter and twisted cc who have leapt onto pprune from the confines of the BASSA forum.
I am appalled by the comments that have been placed here by cabin crew about their feelings about their flight crew colleagues. Heaven help us if we are faced with the sort of incident British Midland were faced with a few years ago.
If you dont want to split a bill, and it is being dicsussed at the start of a meal, why dont you speak up? If it is being discussed at the end of a meal why dont you speak up? If there is a PA discussing an engine that has been shut down, and you can see a problem with a different engine, would you have the guts to speak up then?
I was wrong about the box payments, they are not Box A etc, they are Box 1, thru to Box 5.
You do call the pilots and ask for a certain time of arrival on stand, or later, I, and others, have heard it done. Perhaps BA should stop rewarding you when a flight is late!
You have made a large number of comments about getting rid of "the suits" at Waterside. Do you actually know any positions that are surplus to requirements? If you do, I know of someone who will be interested, its [email protected]
You are replaceable. A maximum of five days training would get the SEP out of the way. That would provide a minimum service. Dont delude yourselves.
Also, dont put yourselves on too high a pedestal, the rest of the company do not see you in the same light as you do in your grooming mirrors at Compass Centre. If there is any threat of a dispute, you will get NO support from outside your little world.
Toodle pip
Swiss_tonni
I am appalled by the comments that have been placed here by cabin crew about their feelings about their flight crew colleagues. Heaven help us if we are faced with the sort of incident British Midland were faced with a few years ago.
If you dont want to split a bill, and it is being dicsussed at the start of a meal, why dont you speak up? If it is being discussed at the end of a meal why dont you speak up? If there is a PA discussing an engine that has been shut down, and you can see a problem with a different engine, would you have the guts to speak up then?
I was wrong about the box payments, they are not Box A etc, they are Box 1, thru to Box 5.
You do call the pilots and ask for a certain time of arrival on stand, or later, I, and others, have heard it done. Perhaps BA should stop rewarding you when a flight is late!
You have made a large number of comments about getting rid of "the suits" at Waterside. Do you actually know any positions that are surplus to requirements? If you do, I know of someone who will be interested, its [email protected]
You are replaceable. A maximum of five days training would get the SEP out of the way. That would provide a minimum service. Dont delude yourselves.
Also, dont put yourselves on too high a pedestal, the rest of the company do not see you in the same light as you do in your grooming mirrors at Compass Centre. If there is any threat of a dispute, you will get NO support from outside your little world.
Toodle pip
Swiss_tonni
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Diesel:
I was asked "for a slow taxi" by the CSD within the last week.
It still happens. Not often, but it still happens.
L337
Regards the request for slow taxi etc - got to say it's largely a thing of the past. More urban myth than reality
It still happens. Not often, but it still happens.
L337