Attention BA staff and shareholders
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Having read Heavy Crew's attempts to decry his/her terms and conditions and to resist all claims that BA long haul cabin crew have a well recompensed career, I feel I should balance these points with some clarification.
When HC states that the duty free commission on BA long haul is so poor, you have to remember that out of 15 or so crew on board only a handful crew actually sell duty free. They get double commission whilst the rest of the crew get half that amount. Admittedly the amounts are not large, but for most of the crew it is for making no duty free sales whatsoever!
As for take home pay, the amounts I have seen on this thread are often misleading. Basic pay rates, especially for new crew are low, BUT the allowances can easily double basic pay and the allowances are taxed at minimal rates. I have twice received the payslip of a LH purser who lives near me and have unwittingly opened it (outwardly identical to mine). The first time, 4 years ago, she took home £2450, the second time, around a year ago, she took home £2600. Mind you, that did include a few destination payments, (paid when operating to unpopular desinations eg Miami as so many crew go 'sick' for these trips.)
My wife, with a good degree from a good university, a post-grad teaching qualification and 15 years teaching takes home less than £2k a month, so let's not hear how tough life is in BA LH.
Let's suggest benchmarking cabin crew pay with comparable competitors and then watch the uproar from BASSA et al!
When HC states that the duty free commission on BA long haul is so poor, you have to remember that out of 15 or so crew on board only a handful crew actually sell duty free. They get double commission whilst the rest of the crew get half that amount. Admittedly the amounts are not large, but for most of the crew it is for making no duty free sales whatsoever!
As for take home pay, the amounts I have seen on this thread are often misleading. Basic pay rates, especially for new crew are low, BUT the allowances can easily double basic pay and the allowances are taxed at minimal rates. I have twice received the payslip of a LH purser who lives near me and have unwittingly opened it (outwardly identical to mine). The first time, 4 years ago, she took home £2450, the second time, around a year ago, she took home £2600. Mind you, that did include a few destination payments, (paid when operating to unpopular desinations eg Miami as so many crew go 'sick' for these trips.)
My wife, with a good degree from a good university, a post-grad teaching qualification and 15 years teaching takes home less than £2k a month, so let's not hear how tough life is in BA LH.
Let's suggest benchmarking cabin crew pay with comparable competitors and then watch the uproar from BASSA et al!
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Thought provoking reading. Thirty years in aviation and a number of companies, I realised that there will always be some rivalry and discussion about other sections, but the level of bitterness and almost hate displayed here is quite sobering.
As a frequent BA longhaul passenger over many years I can say that for me the overall standard of service in the cabin has declined, both in comparison to earlier years and to that given by some other companies. There appears to have been a slow but perceptible change in general attitude of the cabin staff towards the punter, then of course over the years so too have they changed.
Some of the threads here have appeared thoughtful, even constructive, others emotional and vindictive, what is undisputable is that there does seem to be an inherent 'them' and 'us' syndrome and an unfortunate dearth of 'we' or sense of BA as an entity. Individual empires and inter section rivalry seem to be the order of the day. The few who call for unity, and appear to be the calm voices of reason, are simply ignored while the vociferous and opinionated continue to imperviously blast out their particular dogma. Sadly what does come through loud and clear is an overall sense of millitancy and bloody mindedness.
What also appears to have been well and truly lost is a sense of teamwork, pulling in a common direction for the good, and perhaps even survival, of all. A sad comment on a venerable institution that has for many years represented to the world all that was the very best in British Transport Aviation
As a frequent BA longhaul passenger over many years I can say that for me the overall standard of service in the cabin has declined, both in comparison to earlier years and to that given by some other companies. There appears to have been a slow but perceptible change in general attitude of the cabin staff towards the punter, then of course over the years so too have they changed.
Some of the threads here have appeared thoughtful, even constructive, others emotional and vindictive, what is undisputable is that there does seem to be an inherent 'them' and 'us' syndrome and an unfortunate dearth of 'we' or sense of BA as an entity. Individual empires and inter section rivalry seem to be the order of the day. The few who call for unity, and appear to be the calm voices of reason, are simply ignored while the vociferous and opinionated continue to imperviously blast out their particular dogma. Sadly what does come through loud and clear is an overall sense of millitancy and bloody mindedness.
What also appears to have been well and truly lost is a sense of teamwork, pulling in a common direction for the good, and perhaps even survival, of all. A sad comment on a venerable institution that has for many years represented to the world all that was the very best in British Transport Aviation
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Firstly can I ask a moderator to report Clasics IP address immediately to the police, as I feel they should talk to them over the criminal offence of intercepting someone elses mail.
After all, Classic, your defence of "outwardly identical to mine." does not wash with me, unless of course you have the same name and address.
Talking of name and address the police will of course be more interested in what is printed in bold above that.
Oh yes private and confidential and to add insult to your p45 in the top right hand corner it gives the address to return it to if it is not correctly delivered.
Not good for you when your CRC time is upon you eh, bestlook out of the window the old bill are there!!
Well we all know that the police are not going to question Classic because his first statement will get him released with out charge, what is classics first statement you ask?
Well it will clearly sound something like this,
"Oh sorry officer but I was talking bullsh@t, I was just trying to prove this fellow heavy crew was lying and I thought that telling porkies was the best way"
Classic the only liar here is clearly you.
Thanks AJ I am glad you are actually for real it has presented me with some interesting info, my figure Thet I have given thus far are the gods given truth working longhaul ex LGW, I have started a thread on my union site that will decide if I should divulge any further information.
I have had it pointed out to me that as this is a public site publishing sensitive info may not be a good thing for me to do even though true they are.
I hope to converse with you further but can't talk for the meantime about BA terms and conditions.
Peter sadly some of your comments are very accurate, though it sadens me.
Normally I do not come onto this website but overall it has appeared that one of our most vociferous combatants have actually been the crew we work closest to, the flight crew.
The are many exceptions but overall our pilots seem to feel that cabin crew are overpaid, underworked, unskilled muppets who should be on minimum wage, you only need to look back through this posting to see many examples of us being refered to as woolworths or references to making burgers.
This actually shows a general lack of respect to the job we do onboard, I generally feel that many on these forums don't feel we are nessesary at all.
At work I must say I find that the attitude very different and generally perhaps 99% of the time I work with excellent professionals who treat me with respect as I do them and we work very well together.
Lets be honest If all flight crew were like classic and darkstar and others the locked door would be a good thing, but obviously the vast majority are not or hide it well.
Still we might not have Classic for much longer he he
On a serious note I am dismayed, though not totally suprised to hear your comments about our cabin service over the last few years.
I will obviously point you toward the fact that in 97 the crew joining did so on substantially lower wages and over the years we have had less of the quality candidates coming online.
Over the last few years it seems that even the crew on the old contract are starting to leave and we are having trouble recruiting on the salary that we used to have so the company has recently increased it, I hope it helps, although it is still less than Virgin.
Another point and more relevant still is that over the years there have been less of us onboard yet the product demands have increased this obviously streaches us and sadly it is showing.
I am not alone in saying that BA cabin crew want to do the best job possible but the company has some issues in the way it treats us and obviously if everyone in the company feels the way the comments on here show things will eventually faulter and fail.
I wish to finish off by saying don't mistake a few stupid comments and ill considered words, made on a forum, to represent BA as over all the company is manned by get it done professionals, that try at all costs to get the job done
After all, Classic, your defence of "outwardly identical to mine." does not wash with me, unless of course you have the same name and address.
Talking of name and address the police will of course be more interested in what is printed in bold above that.
Oh yes private and confidential and to add insult to your p45 in the top right hand corner it gives the address to return it to if it is not correctly delivered.
Not good for you when your CRC time is upon you eh, bestlook out of the window the old bill are there!!
Well we all know that the police are not going to question Classic because his first statement will get him released with out charge, what is classics first statement you ask?
Well it will clearly sound something like this,
"Oh sorry officer but I was talking bullsh@t, I was just trying to prove this fellow heavy crew was lying and I thought that telling porkies was the best way"
Classic the only liar here is clearly you.
Thanks AJ I am glad you are actually for real it has presented me with some interesting info, my figure Thet I have given thus far are the gods given truth working longhaul ex LGW, I have started a thread on my union site that will decide if I should divulge any further information.
I have had it pointed out to me that as this is a public site publishing sensitive info may not be a good thing for me to do even though true they are.
I hope to converse with you further but can't talk for the meantime about BA terms and conditions.
Peter sadly some of your comments are very accurate, though it sadens me.
Normally I do not come onto this website but overall it has appeared that one of our most vociferous combatants have actually been the crew we work closest to, the flight crew.
The are many exceptions but overall our pilots seem to feel that cabin crew are overpaid, underworked, unskilled muppets who should be on minimum wage, you only need to look back through this posting to see many examples of us being refered to as woolworths or references to making burgers.
This actually shows a general lack of respect to the job we do onboard, I generally feel that many on these forums don't feel we are nessesary at all.
At work I must say I find that the attitude very different and generally perhaps 99% of the time I work with excellent professionals who treat me with respect as I do them and we work very well together.
Lets be honest If all flight crew were like classic and darkstar and others the locked door would be a good thing, but obviously the vast majority are not or hide it well.
Still we might not have Classic for much longer he he
On a serious note I am dismayed, though not totally suprised to hear your comments about our cabin service over the last few years.
I will obviously point you toward the fact that in 97 the crew joining did so on substantially lower wages and over the years we have had less of the quality candidates coming online.
Over the last few years it seems that even the crew on the old contract are starting to leave and we are having trouble recruiting on the salary that we used to have so the company has recently increased it, I hope it helps, although it is still less than Virgin.
Another point and more relevant still is that over the years there have been less of us onboard yet the product demands have increased this obviously streaches us and sadly it is showing.
I am not alone in saying that BA cabin crew want to do the best job possible but the company has some issues in the way it treats us and obviously if everyone in the company feels the way the comments on here show things will eventually faulter and fail.
I wish to finish off by saying don't mistake a few stupid comments and ill considered words, made on a forum, to represent BA as over all the company is manned by get it done professionals, that try at all costs to get the job done
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A team needs the support and co-ordination of all its members to function succesfully.
Our teams are made up of flight deck, cabin crew, dispatch, crewing, cleaners, check-in, managers....... and the list goes on. Without one team member another can't function. I remember something in the back of my head called CRM, did it die a death? Surely now with the security issues in aviation, we ALL need to pull together to keep us all flying??
Now what was the original point of this topic again...?????
Six
Our teams are made up of flight deck, cabin crew, dispatch, crewing, cleaners, check-in, managers....... and the list goes on. Without one team member another can't function. I remember something in the back of my head called CRM, did it die a death? Surely now with the security issues in aviation, we ALL need to pull together to keep us all flying??
Now what was the original point of this topic again...?????
Six
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"The cabin crew are having a bloody hard time of it at the moment, with reduced crewing levels and ever higher expectations of our customers."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! In BA, yehhhhhhhh right
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! In BA, yehhhhhhhh right
ThS,
"and etrang
if you don't like us that much.. why don't you go and fly somewhere else?? it's pure and simple! "
Yes indeed, and where possible i do follow your advice. However, my European business trips are normally arranged by the London office and scheduling often makes BA the most convenient choice. I will however pass on your recommendation.
"and etrang
if you don't like us that much.. why don't you go and fly somewhere else?? it's pure and simple! "
Yes indeed, and where possible i do follow your advice. However, my European business trips are normally arranged by the London office and scheduling often makes BA the most convenient choice. I will however pass on your recommendation.
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Wow,
What a mega thread. So long that even at my fairly zippy reading speed I had to break for a night stop and resume after min rest the next morning!
At times I laughed. For some reason the whole insinuation that one of the posters (Connex) might actually work at said organisation yet criticise BA's standards and dirty laundry made me chortle.
At times I was angry. The 'Woolworth's' comments and comments about Cabin Crew qualifications being 'none' were particularly 'constructive'.
At times I was frustrated. But, in the sense of debate, and in the hope that despite the fact that the vitriol has been flying so thick and fast that I've perfected my duck and dodge, I thought I'd chip in my tuppence (or "dime's") worth.
I'm just starting with BA as EF Cabin Crew. I've worked 'down the back' for several carriers. One of them was Midland at LHR for a number of years, one of them was a low cost, and one of them was a heavily unionised US carrier. Throw in the 6 month contract I did at a charter airline, and I think you could say that while I may not be an expert at all things BA as of yet, I've nonetheless 'been around'!
First and foremost, it's been said before, but it's so important (and so many people seem to be missing it) that it's worth bringing up again. CRM. And the concept of Internal Customers.
Us Cabin Crew cannot alone an airline make. Of course there are the pilots. There's the engineering team. There's the great and hardworking ground staff and CSA's. There's Payroll, HR, Admin... and of course a management team. With some exceptions, as well as department heads and directors, I think It's safe to say that most of the management team should really be there to serve US, the workforce, as internal customers. Whether it's in monitoring and managing service standards, developing new policies and procedures, or working to improve efficiency at the airline (yes, cost cutting), ultimately the management team are doing a lot of behind the scenes work that should enable the general workforce to be able to do their jobs better, more effectively, and yes, at times more cost efficiently. Sometimes however it's better to spend a penny or two here and save a small fortune later than it is to spend nothing.
In addition to flying about 80 odd hours a month, I've been working as a scheduler for a hotel and airline management company (yeah, I'm a work-a-holic!!). I've been looking after the scheduling of about 130 reservations agents in our call centre. Something I've learnt is that sometimes it's better to take a hit in the short term, but reap the benefits long term. If you're short staffed, offer a bonus to get more people in. Take the financial hit, but by taking the pressure of the other staff working you see a (generally) happier and more motivated workforce, which in turn leads to better service to our clients.
When you're in a customer focused business, having a satisfied, motivated workforce that works together as a cohesive team is not just a nicetie, it's a necessity. I forget what Airline CEO once said it, but it was so true when he said "We're not in the aviation business. We're in the Customer Service business. We just happen to fly airplanes, that's all".
To those people here, some of whom profess to work at other departments in BA, your comments about how anyone could be Cabin Crew (it just takes 5 days of training) - I ask you to ponder this. Some of the very people who have posted to this thread have been customers at BA. They've indicated that because of poor cabin service on their flight to Africa / Insert Destination, they plan to take VS / Insert other carrier on their next trip. It's quite possible that the baggage handlers loaded the bags efficiently. The CSA's checked the pax in smoothly and without hiccup. The pilots got the plane safely, and punctually to its destination. The customer got their FF points thanks to the boffins at Executive Club... But because the Cabin Service was lacking, or more likely the service was there but the manner it was delivered in was lacking, this customer is a lost customer.
If that doesn't reinforce just how important the Cabin Crew team are to an airline, I don't know what does. Again, I reiterate that (with the exception of some superfluous bean counters and managers) everyone in an airline plays a vital role. I'm not for a second saying that Cabin Crew are 'better' or 'superior' to any other work group. Just highlighting the fact that as a workgroup we spend more time with the paying customer than anyone else. Therefore while it's true that no other workgroup has over the years been subjected to more stereotypes and misconceptions (and judging by a lot of the posts on here - still do!), the fact is that this employee group still remains the 'face' of an airline. If the customer likes it, gets that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, chances are they'll recommend us to their friends, family and co-workers, and hopefully honour us with the chance to serve them again.
The research boffins say it cost's 7 times more to recruit a new customer than to look after and keep an existing one. So, maybe if paying a decent (not exorbitant, but decent) wage to the cabin crew means we keep more crew happy, and in turn more customers happy and loyal, maybe it's a wise investment after all.
In regards to the cost of recruiting new staff vs maintaining existing ones - it's an arguement that deserves some thought and examination. Quite aside from the ludicrous notion being bandied around that the qualifications for Cabin Crew are 'none' (so we'll have any old muppet looking after our valued customers to whom we owe our employment), some people seemed to feel it was a fairly straight forward process to just get a bunch of new people in with 5 days training. In actual fact, the training process is a bit more in depth than 5 days, but beyond that it's not unreasonable to look at the cost of interviewing, recruiting, training and outfitting a new hire crew member. By the time you've employed a large team of HR people to scan what must now be in the tens of thousands of resumes, interviewed thousands of applicants, and finally completed the admin process to get several hundred into training: the bill must already be pretty steep. Add on the cost of trainers and training facilities. Add on a couple of grand for uniforms. Yup. It must cost a tidy packet to get joe blow from the street into a fully fledged crew member. So it's reasonable to assume that if we're spending so much money, shouldn't we consider it an 'investment', and shouldn't we be sure to look after that investment with a decent salary, decent T&C, and - if we want to differentiate BA as a superior premium carrier - maybe a little bit more than the other guys out there (Shock Horror!!!). And given these costs, to have people leave in droves might be good news for the HR and training department as it keeps them busy, but it's bad for business in every other way including on the $$.
"We know all this!" you yell. Apparently though, in the heat of one-upmanship and the proverbial pissing contest, the message seems to have been lost on many.
What a mega thread. So long that even at my fairly zippy reading speed I had to break for a night stop and resume after min rest the next morning!
At times I laughed. For some reason the whole insinuation that one of the posters (Connex) might actually work at said organisation yet criticise BA's standards and dirty laundry made me chortle.
At times I was angry. The 'Woolworth's' comments and comments about Cabin Crew qualifications being 'none' were particularly 'constructive'.
At times I was frustrated. But, in the sense of debate, and in the hope that despite the fact that the vitriol has been flying so thick and fast that I've perfected my duck and dodge, I thought I'd chip in my tuppence (or "dime's") worth.
I'm just starting with BA as EF Cabin Crew. I've worked 'down the back' for several carriers. One of them was Midland at LHR for a number of years, one of them was a low cost, and one of them was a heavily unionised US carrier. Throw in the 6 month contract I did at a charter airline, and I think you could say that while I may not be an expert at all things BA as of yet, I've nonetheless 'been around'!
First and foremost, it's been said before, but it's so important (and so many people seem to be missing it) that it's worth bringing up again. CRM. And the concept of Internal Customers.
Us Cabin Crew cannot alone an airline make. Of course there are the pilots. There's the engineering team. There's the great and hardworking ground staff and CSA's. There's Payroll, HR, Admin... and of course a management team. With some exceptions, as well as department heads and directors, I think It's safe to say that most of the management team should really be there to serve US, the workforce, as internal customers. Whether it's in monitoring and managing service standards, developing new policies and procedures, or working to improve efficiency at the airline (yes, cost cutting), ultimately the management team are doing a lot of behind the scenes work that should enable the general workforce to be able to do their jobs better, more effectively, and yes, at times more cost efficiently. Sometimes however it's better to spend a penny or two here and save a small fortune later than it is to spend nothing.
In addition to flying about 80 odd hours a month, I've been working as a scheduler for a hotel and airline management company (yeah, I'm a work-a-holic!!). I've been looking after the scheduling of about 130 reservations agents in our call centre. Something I've learnt is that sometimes it's better to take a hit in the short term, but reap the benefits long term. If you're short staffed, offer a bonus to get more people in. Take the financial hit, but by taking the pressure of the other staff working you see a (generally) happier and more motivated workforce, which in turn leads to better service to our clients.
When you're in a customer focused business, having a satisfied, motivated workforce that works together as a cohesive team is not just a nicetie, it's a necessity. I forget what Airline CEO once said it, but it was so true when he said "We're not in the aviation business. We're in the Customer Service business. We just happen to fly airplanes, that's all".
To those people here, some of whom profess to work at other departments in BA, your comments about how anyone could be Cabin Crew (it just takes 5 days of training) - I ask you to ponder this. Some of the very people who have posted to this thread have been customers at BA. They've indicated that because of poor cabin service on their flight to Africa / Insert Destination, they plan to take VS / Insert other carrier on their next trip. It's quite possible that the baggage handlers loaded the bags efficiently. The CSA's checked the pax in smoothly and without hiccup. The pilots got the plane safely, and punctually to its destination. The customer got their FF points thanks to the boffins at Executive Club... But because the Cabin Service was lacking, or more likely the service was there but the manner it was delivered in was lacking, this customer is a lost customer.
If that doesn't reinforce just how important the Cabin Crew team are to an airline, I don't know what does. Again, I reiterate that (with the exception of some superfluous bean counters and managers) everyone in an airline plays a vital role. I'm not for a second saying that Cabin Crew are 'better' or 'superior' to any other work group. Just highlighting the fact that as a workgroup we spend more time with the paying customer than anyone else. Therefore while it's true that no other workgroup has over the years been subjected to more stereotypes and misconceptions (and judging by a lot of the posts on here - still do!), the fact is that this employee group still remains the 'face' of an airline. If the customer likes it, gets that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, chances are they'll recommend us to their friends, family and co-workers, and hopefully honour us with the chance to serve them again.
The research boffins say it cost's 7 times more to recruit a new customer than to look after and keep an existing one. So, maybe if paying a decent (not exorbitant, but decent) wage to the cabin crew means we keep more crew happy, and in turn more customers happy and loyal, maybe it's a wise investment after all.
In regards to the cost of recruiting new staff vs maintaining existing ones - it's an arguement that deserves some thought and examination. Quite aside from the ludicrous notion being bandied around that the qualifications for Cabin Crew are 'none' (so we'll have any old muppet looking after our valued customers to whom we owe our employment), some people seemed to feel it was a fairly straight forward process to just get a bunch of new people in with 5 days training. In actual fact, the training process is a bit more in depth than 5 days, but beyond that it's not unreasonable to look at the cost of interviewing, recruiting, training and outfitting a new hire crew member. By the time you've employed a large team of HR people to scan what must now be in the tens of thousands of resumes, interviewed thousands of applicants, and finally completed the admin process to get several hundred into training: the bill must already be pretty steep. Add on the cost of trainers and training facilities. Add on a couple of grand for uniforms. Yup. It must cost a tidy packet to get joe blow from the street into a fully fledged crew member. So it's reasonable to assume that if we're spending so much money, shouldn't we consider it an 'investment', and shouldn't we be sure to look after that investment with a decent salary, decent T&C, and - if we want to differentiate BA as a superior premium carrier - maybe a little bit more than the other guys out there (Shock Horror!!!). And given these costs, to have people leave in droves might be good news for the HR and training department as it keeps them busy, but it's bad for business in every other way including on the $$.
"We know all this!" you yell. Apparently though, in the heat of one-upmanship and the proverbial pissing contest, the message seems to have been lost on many.
Last edited by YYC F/A; 7th Apr 2004 at 06:07.
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YYC F/A -
Quote "At times I laughed. For some reason the whole insinuation that one of the posters (Connex) might actually work at said organisation yet criticise BA's standards and dirty laundry made me chortle."
Me too! - They ought to look at my pprune profile - I do "exactly what it says on the tin".
Quote: "Some of the very people who have posted to this thread have been customers at BA. They've indicated that because of poor cabin service on their flight to Africa / Insert Destination, they plan to take VS / Insert other carrier on their next trip."
Correct - and we have!
Quote: "But because the Cabin Service was lacking, or more likely the service was there but the manner it was delivered in was lacking, this customer is a lost customer."
Correct again - right on the button. This is the crux of the matter - if I personally felt that additional payments were worthwhile (because the service was good) then I wouldn't be so annoyed with it happening. But the service is crap, and the CC attitude more so, therefore, as a shareholder, I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously. Spend it on something useful - like new CC to replace the deadbeats who are currently letting the side down.
Quote: "If the customer likes it, gets that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, chances are they'll recommend us to their friends, family and co-workers, and hopefully honour us with the chance to serve them again."
And we would! Problem is, many of us have not received the standard of service deserving of such "honour".
Quote: "We know all this!" you yell. Apparently though, in the heat of one-upmanship and the proverbial pissing contest, the message seems to have been lost on many."
The one-upmanship comes only from within the BA ranks. The message (your cabin service is crap, and not worthy of any extra payments at all) has been lost on many of the CC posting here. The views of all the SLFs posting on here have been met either with remarks ranging from mild sarcasm to outright contempt, or have been edited out from the thread by none other than our apparently worthy, and not to mention impartial (!!), SLF/shareholder adversary, ol' Danny "Capt. pprune" Boy himself!
After having my own posts removed, and then seeing this posted by anti-ice,
Quote: “Well said Danny, and let's hope this put's a stop to the many comments and derisory remarks aimed at all your colleagues. . . . the cabin crew.”
and sending Danny a PM, I would at least expect the courtesy of a reply. But then, in this case, perhaps not – I’m only ex-BA SLF after all (not to mention a BA shareholder!) - and I expect you don't want to be seen consorting with the enemy, do you, old son?
Somebody remind me what "CC" is actually an abbreviation of - Complete C
springs to mind.
And, whilst we're at it, just WHAT is the point of an open forum if one "side" is sent off, whilst the other "side" plays just as dirty, and stays on the field?
Quote "At times I laughed. For some reason the whole insinuation that one of the posters (Connex) might actually work at said organisation yet criticise BA's standards and dirty laundry made me chortle."
Me too! - They ought to look at my pprune profile - I do "exactly what it says on the tin".
Quote: "Some of the very people who have posted to this thread have been customers at BA. They've indicated that because of poor cabin service on their flight to Africa / Insert Destination, they plan to take VS / Insert other carrier on their next trip."
Correct - and we have!
Quote: "But because the Cabin Service was lacking, or more likely the service was there but the manner it was delivered in was lacking, this customer is a lost customer."
Correct again - right on the button. This is the crux of the matter - if I personally felt that additional payments were worthwhile (because the service was good) then I wouldn't be so annoyed with it happening. But the service is crap, and the CC attitude more so, therefore, as a shareholder, I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously. Spend it on something useful - like new CC to replace the deadbeats who are currently letting the side down.
Quote: "If the customer likes it, gets that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, chances are they'll recommend us to their friends, family and co-workers, and hopefully honour us with the chance to serve them again."
And we would! Problem is, many of us have not received the standard of service deserving of such "honour".
Quote: "We know all this!" you yell. Apparently though, in the heat of one-upmanship and the proverbial pissing contest, the message seems to have been lost on many."
The one-upmanship comes only from within the BA ranks. The message (your cabin service is crap, and not worthy of any extra payments at all) has been lost on many of the CC posting here. The views of all the SLFs posting on here have been met either with remarks ranging from mild sarcasm to outright contempt, or have been edited out from the thread by none other than our apparently worthy, and not to mention impartial (!!), SLF/shareholder adversary, ol' Danny "Capt. pprune" Boy himself!
After having my own posts removed, and then seeing this posted by anti-ice,
Quote: “Well said Danny, and let's hope this put's a stop to the many comments and derisory remarks aimed at all your colleagues. . . . the cabin crew.”
and sending Danny a PM, I would at least expect the courtesy of a reply. But then, in this case, perhaps not – I’m only ex-BA SLF after all (not to mention a BA shareholder!) - and I expect you don't want to be seen consorting with the enemy, do you, old son?
Somebody remind me what "CC" is actually an abbreviation of - Complete C
springs to mind. And, whilst we're at it, just WHAT is the point of an open forum if one "side" is sent off, whilst the other "side" plays just as dirty, and stays on the field?
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Hey Connex,
Thanks for taking the time to review my posting in such depth, and to give such a detailed step by step response to my (many) comments.
You make mention of the fact that this should be an 'open' forum.
It's unfortunate that more people don't contribute to it with an 'open' mind. After all, what is the point of trying to put across any reasoned or balanced points or arguements if they are met with responses such as "C/C - an abreviation of Complete Crap" or "the service is crap, and the CC attitude more so, therefore, as a shareholder, I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously".
There's 'crap' people everywhere, at everywhere carrier, and in every organisation. Throwing money at the problem does not in itself make the problem go away. But a supportive culture (where one's own managers, unlike a few on here, do not resort to lambasting, belittling and undermining an entire work group), a positive work environment, and an internal 'service' minded culture do actually do wonders for improving moral and customer service! While the arguements are hot and heavy about the amount of money crew should get (if any) for working one or two short, the fact is that it in many ways it shows that the management team are working to help promote a positive working environment by sweeting the pill of having to work short staffed by offering a (in this case) cash reward.
But if you're committed to your sweeping generalisations about all Cabin Crew and the crap service apparently being delivered on every flight, then I'm probably just wasting my breath (typing energy) on trying to put forth a reasoned, non-emotional perspective.
After all, as one of the new BA Cabin Crew recruits, in the spirit of all Cabin Crew, I'm probably just speaking crap!
Fortunately, I tend to steer away from sweeping generalisations and stereotypes. Thanks for keeping our planes in the air safely, and getting us to where we need to go. I know that not all Air Traffic Controllers are Crap!
Over and out
Thanks for taking the time to review my posting in such depth, and to give such a detailed step by step response to my (many) comments.
You make mention of the fact that this should be an 'open' forum.
It's unfortunate that more people don't contribute to it with an 'open' mind. After all, what is the point of trying to put across any reasoned or balanced points or arguements if they are met with responses such as "C/C - an abreviation of Complete Crap" or "the service is crap, and the CC attitude more so, therefore, as a shareholder, I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously".
There's 'crap' people everywhere, at everywhere carrier, and in every organisation. Throwing money at the problem does not in itself make the problem go away. But a supportive culture (where one's own managers, unlike a few on here, do not resort to lambasting, belittling and undermining an entire work group), a positive work environment, and an internal 'service' minded culture do actually do wonders for improving moral and customer service! While the arguements are hot and heavy about the amount of money crew should get (if any) for working one or two short, the fact is that it in many ways it shows that the management team are working to help promote a positive working environment by sweeting the pill of having to work short staffed by offering a (in this case) cash reward.
But if you're committed to your sweeping generalisations about all Cabin Crew and the crap service apparently being delivered on every flight, then I'm probably just wasting my breath (typing energy) on trying to put forth a reasoned, non-emotional perspective.
After all, as one of the new BA Cabin Crew recruits, in the spirit of all Cabin Crew, I'm probably just speaking crap!
Fortunately, I tend to steer away from sweeping generalisations and stereotypes. Thanks for keeping our planes in the air safely, and getting us to where we need to go. I know that not all Air Traffic Controllers are Crap!
Over and out
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FaPoGai - get a life or try & cheer yourself up , or better still, go back to your old job at Dorothy Perkins. 
Nearly Man - You have no idea m8,perhaps when you are (if ever) a man, you'll take a real interest and understand the ways of the world
Nearly Man - You have no idea m8,perhaps when you are (if ever) a man, you'll take a real interest and understand the ways of the world
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Six mile good points
Nearly Man, In life you must learn to realise that just because you can't see something doesn't mean that it does not exist, think of trees and woods and a popular phrase with them both in please.
Etrang I hope you don't pass on the wish to go elsewhere and I genuinely hope that the company can help the crew, like myself, who wish to see BA back at the pinacle of the airline industry as we used to be, achieve our goals.
YYC F/A What can I say welcome to Inflight services.
You actually give me hope, you have a very good grasp of the situation, considering you have been here such a short time.
Obviously we are getting some quality new crew coming to join us online in both sences of the word.
Connex you sadly keep missing the point.
Most of your comments are just derisory and I can't see what you expect to gain from them except curt derogatory statements back, I didn't see the post you had removed but judging by the poor objectiveness of the ones that remain I am sure that Danny was more correct than you will ever know.
The way you put youself over will not however stop me from trying to answer your points however as we need every passinger we can get, yes even you and your freinds, if you have any.
I am pleased that overall you agree with YYC as they do make a great deal of sence but your post is all vitriol the only comment that seemed to be a point was
I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously. Spend it on something useful - like new CC to replace the deadbeats who are currently letting the side down.
As vitriolic as the whole phrase was I would like to point out that the money you talk about of course is only a one off but the spending it to replace Cabin crew mmmmmm.
Deadbeats letting the side down.mmmmmmm
If you are able to think about this in a rational frame of mind connex I am sure you will come to the same conclusions as I do.
Firstly why does connex feel that BA cabin crew have deadbeats that are letting the side down, if we do surely they were not allways so, if they are here how do we get rid of them.
When I joined BA in the 80's we were the best airline around carriers would close a route if we started to operate on it slowly the situation has changed and the airline now closes routes if other carriers start being to competitive on them.
Has cabin services changed in that time?
Well yes of course and as I have said many times before, the talented and the characters have left as the Terms and conditions and morale have sunk to the all time low we find ourselves in today.
As the real class and talent leaves and the morale sinks, that begins to affect the conduct of the standard run of the mill hostie, who when things are going well is up beat and gives her all, how is she when things are going as badly as they are currently?.
Perhaps she is the type of cabin crew you refer to that should be sacked?
The fact of the matter is that yes she is not the finest cabin crew member that we have as she can't raise her game to overcome any longer but should the company sack her (could it and not get sued) for becoming victim to a state of mind and belief that it is responsible for?
Yes I do feel that the Management are Wholey to blame for taking the morale and joy in cabin services and flushing it down the toilet.
Some of the contributors on this forum also should share some of the guilt especially when constantly bleating about them being overpaid and underworked, which they are not.
The payments were a symptom of the illness that cabin service suffers from, most crew are becoming more and more disgruntled and that causes low morale so more leave so we can't crew the A/C so payments are made so the pilots moan at the crew who feel more dispondant so more leave.
How do we break this downward spiral?
As you don't want to pay crew better and more even pay and return the A/C to only just over one crew member less than virgin please come on guys you tell me your ideas.
Nearly Man, In life you must learn to realise that just because you can't see something doesn't mean that it does not exist, think of trees and woods and a popular phrase with them both in please.
Etrang I hope you don't pass on the wish to go elsewhere and I genuinely hope that the company can help the crew, like myself, who wish to see BA back at the pinacle of the airline industry as we used to be, achieve our goals.
YYC F/A What can I say welcome to Inflight services.
You actually give me hope, you have a very good grasp of the situation, considering you have been here such a short time.
Obviously we are getting some quality new crew coming to join us online in both sences of the word.
Connex you sadly keep missing the point.
Most of your comments are just derisory and I can't see what you expect to gain from them except curt derogatory statements back, I didn't see the post you had removed but judging by the poor objectiveness of the ones that remain I am sure that Danny was more correct than you will ever know.
The way you put youself over will not however stop me from trying to answer your points however as we need every passinger we can get, yes even you and your freinds, if you have any.
I am pleased that overall you agree with YYC as they do make a great deal of sence but your post is all vitriol the only comment that seemed to be a point was
I don't want to see the money wasted so frivolously. Spend it on something useful - like new CC to replace the deadbeats who are currently letting the side down.
As vitriolic as the whole phrase was I would like to point out that the money you talk about of course is only a one off but the spending it to replace Cabin crew mmmmmm.
Deadbeats letting the side down.mmmmmmm
If you are able to think about this in a rational frame of mind connex I am sure you will come to the same conclusions as I do.
Firstly why does connex feel that BA cabin crew have deadbeats that are letting the side down, if we do surely they were not allways so, if they are here how do we get rid of them.
When I joined BA in the 80's we were the best airline around carriers would close a route if we started to operate on it slowly the situation has changed and the airline now closes routes if other carriers start being to competitive on them.
Has cabin services changed in that time?
Well yes of course and as I have said many times before, the talented and the characters have left as the Terms and conditions and morale have sunk to the all time low we find ourselves in today.
As the real class and talent leaves and the morale sinks, that begins to affect the conduct of the standard run of the mill hostie, who when things are going well is up beat and gives her all, how is she when things are going as badly as they are currently?.
Perhaps she is the type of cabin crew you refer to that should be sacked?
The fact of the matter is that yes she is not the finest cabin crew member that we have as she can't raise her game to overcome any longer but should the company sack her (could it and not get sued) for becoming victim to a state of mind and belief that it is responsible for?
Yes I do feel that the Management are Wholey to blame for taking the morale and joy in cabin services and flushing it down the toilet.
Some of the contributors on this forum also should share some of the guilt especially when constantly bleating about them being overpaid and underworked, which they are not.
The payments were a symptom of the illness that cabin service suffers from, most crew are becoming more and more disgruntled and that causes low morale so more leave so we can't crew the A/C so payments are made so the pilots moan at the crew who feel more dispondant so more leave.
How do we break this downward spiral?
As you don't want to pay crew better and more even pay and return the A/C to only just over one crew member less than virgin please come on guys you tell me your ideas.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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YYC/F/A your post was a breath of fresh air, though as every post does, bearing an opinion which it seems not everyone agrees entirely with. Certainly a change in tone though which made it a pleasant change to read. Reason and logic somehow always did seem a better way to go then simply slagging of the opposition no matter how relieving that is.
The acknowledgment of a lack of CRM and corporate togetherness appears to be there, what caused it and how to get aleviate it probably not so easy. Not being BA it is probably both impertinant and ignorant of one to hazard a guess but could the building over the years of completely separated structures and almost little empires within the overall corporate whole play some part in the divorced attitude you all display. It is almost as if you feel you are working for separate companies and almost incidentaly come together just thrown together by accident for a moment in a day.
With regard to the salaries once again without the figures in front of one, there is a danger of skating on thin ice, however could it be said with regard to the industry as a whole the the cabin staff in BA are probably in the top 25th percentile in pay conditions and perks ie the whole shmear. If they are then the pay for the work is not bad.
I have for some years been interested in packages and have been fascinated to see how some companies are able to make up with other conditions in a contract that are more than adequate compensations for simple cash. The point of this simply being if the offer presently made by BA is not competative in the industry as a whole they simply would not get recruits. They do so something must be in the ballpark. It may well not compare with times gone by but a sad fact of life which has been hard for some to grasp that salaries adjust to market conditions and as the warning goes these can go down as well as up.
The acknowledgment of a lack of CRM and corporate togetherness appears to be there, what caused it and how to get aleviate it probably not so easy. Not being BA it is probably both impertinant and ignorant of one to hazard a guess but could the building over the years of completely separated structures and almost little empires within the overall corporate whole play some part in the divorced attitude you all display. It is almost as if you feel you are working for separate companies and almost incidentaly come together just thrown together by accident for a moment in a day.
With regard to the salaries once again without the figures in front of one, there is a danger of skating on thin ice, however could it be said with regard to the industry as a whole the the cabin staff in BA are probably in the top 25th percentile in pay conditions and perks ie the whole shmear. If they are then the pay for the work is not bad.
I have for some years been interested in packages and have been fascinated to see how some companies are able to make up with other conditions in a contract that are more than adequate compensations for simple cash. The point of this simply being if the offer presently made by BA is not competative in the industry as a whole they simply would not get recruits. They do so something must be in the ballpark. It may well not compare with times gone by but a sad fact of life which has been hard for some to grasp that salaries adjust to market conditions and as the warning goes these can go down as well as up.
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peterbrat.
I have read your post and find that I agree with it pretty much wholeheartedly.
In the top 25th percentile pay wise, I can agree to that roughly.
We are not the best paid but far from the worst so that sounds about fair.
You must feel that we are awful for moaning about our pay and conditions when we are around the top 25th percentile but what we are up against are the ignorant people who still feel that we are paid masively over and above our competitors.
As you quite rightly point out salaries do go up and down with regard to market forces, our has been going down for some time now.
It is frustrating when you see that you are no longer the best paid or have the best conditions yet have pilots constantly trying to tell you that you are overpaid and underworked and have been for years.
That is more of a slap in the face when you have done 200 more flying hours in the previous year than they have.
It appears that this thread has calmed down now and perhaps our pilots are beginning to see the truth of the situation because there is only so many times you can hear some self rightous clown shout, without real knowledge, Well BA would be just fine if you lot were benchmarked.
Hopefully some common sence will prevail and we can look toward the real problems within BA that is the amount of managers like swiss tonni that are producing nothing yet draining the cashflow.
I have read your post and find that I agree with it pretty much wholeheartedly.
In the top 25th percentile pay wise, I can agree to that roughly.
We are not the best paid but far from the worst so that sounds about fair.
You must feel that we are awful for moaning about our pay and conditions when we are around the top 25th percentile but what we are up against are the ignorant people who still feel that we are paid masively over and above our competitors.
As you quite rightly point out salaries do go up and down with regard to market forces, our has been going down for some time now.
It is frustrating when you see that you are no longer the best paid or have the best conditions yet have pilots constantly trying to tell you that you are overpaid and underworked and have been for years.
That is more of a slap in the face when you have done 200 more flying hours in the previous year than they have.
It appears that this thread has calmed down now and perhaps our pilots are beginning to see the truth of the situation because there is only so many times you can hear some self rightous clown shout, without real knowledge, Well BA would be just fine if you lot were benchmarked.
Hopefully some common sence will prevail and we can look toward the real problems within BA that is the amount of managers like swiss tonni that are producing nothing yet draining the cashflow.
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Heavy Crew,
As well as having "flown" 200 more hours than the pilots, I hear that you probably got more bunk time than them too.
If you were benchmarked wouldn't that prove that you were not overpaid and underworked, so what would be the problem with benchmarking?
That is more of a slap in the face when you have done 200 more flying hours in the previous year than they have.
If you were benchmarked wouldn't that prove that you were not overpaid and underworked, so what would be the problem with benchmarking?
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Like most BA threads this will run and run. Many good points here but let us not forget that the culture and profile of the passengers have changed, not for the best, reflecting society and its general yobbishness.
Such attitudes make it difficult for crew and ground staff alike, combined with the need to reduce costs, means less service anyway and poorer products to offer.
When this started it was to do with extra allowances whether for crew or LHR ground services staff relating to the T1-T4 switches and staff shortages. What about the rest of the airline staff that get nothing for their imput into this operation. They must reflect that their sickness is off little consequence as is much of what they do.
Such attitudes make it difficult for crew and ground staff alike, combined with the need to reduce costs, means less service anyway and poorer products to offer.
When this started it was to do with extra allowances whether for crew or LHR ground services staff relating to the T1-T4 switches and staff shortages. What about the rest of the airline staff that get nothing for their imput into this operation. They must reflect that their sickness is off little consequence as is much of what they do.
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Oh-Oh it seems like most pilots on here, it appears your comments are ill informed.
I am based at LGW WW exactly how many 777's are there at LGW with bunks?
Oh yes none, but I bet the pilots got 100 percent more horizontal rest than I have, due to the fact that as pilots you take a First bed for your rest, I however have a seat at the rear of WT.
Not that I object to you guys Having a first class seat for your horizontal rest, I don't.
I do however object to people like yourself who seem to think I have things so much better than I do.
Lets be honest Every post I have made has been accurate, can't say that about my pilot colleagues, Good job you guys can fly a plane more accurately.
Personally I don't have a problem with benchmarking and the company does not wish to either, as it knows the truth of the situation.
it is only pilots like you who have no vision of the real truth that keep annoying us by ranting on and on about us needing to be benchmarked.
Which incidentaly we clearly don't require.
we are not the poorest paid in the industry or the best but we are the most lambasted.
Why.
Well its muppets like you that won't accept what is clearly infront of your face.
Perhaps you just can't see it.
Well to be frank iff you lifted your b@lls out of your eyes you would!!!
I am based at LGW WW exactly how many 777's are there at LGW with bunks?
Oh yes none, but I bet the pilots got 100 percent more horizontal rest than I have, due to the fact that as pilots you take a First bed for your rest, I however have a seat at the rear of WT.
Not that I object to you guys Having a first class seat for your horizontal rest, I don't.
I do however object to people like yourself who seem to think I have things so much better than I do.
Lets be honest Every post I have made has been accurate, can't say that about my pilot colleagues, Good job you guys can fly a plane more accurately.
Personally I don't have a problem with benchmarking and the company does not wish to either, as it knows the truth of the situation.
it is only pilots like you who have no vision of the real truth that keep annoying us by ranting on and on about us needing to be benchmarked.
Which incidentaly we clearly don't require.
we are not the poorest paid in the industry or the best but we are the most lambasted.
Why.
Well its muppets like you that won't accept what is clearly infront of your face.
Perhaps you just can't see it.
Well to be frank iff you lifted your b@lls out of your eyes you would!!!
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From a cabin crew cost point of view, LGW WW aren't the problem (and they're a damn sight more sociable than the LHR mob as well!), it's some of the old contract LHR WW crew who are above the line, and there are fewer of them these days. I feel that if the cabin crew were 'benchmarked', it would mean a redistribution of the wealth (rather like happened to the pilots) with the senior ones having allowances trimmed and the junior ones getting an improved set! The overall cost burden to BA wouldn't change significantly. A decent rostering system would reduce the absenteeism as well. However, BA give the impression of being interested too much on the short term share price than the long term health of the company.
If we can get GTS to do a full day's work for a full day's pay and the rest of the company to use swipe cards instead of treating Fridays as POETS* day, that's when we'll get somewhere and make real savings.
And NO, you can't have any more pension contributions from me until this is done. If BA can afford inefficient work practices from some departments on the ground, it can afford to contribute properly to my pension.
*POETS = Go Home Early, Tomorrow's Saturday.
If we can get GTS to do a full day's work for a full day's pay and the rest of the company to use swipe cards instead of treating Fridays as POETS* day, that's when we'll get somewhere and make real savings.
And NO, you can't have any more pension contributions from me until this is done. If BA can afford inefficient work practices from some departments on the ground, it can afford to contribute properly to my pension.
*POETS = Go Home Early, Tomorrow's Saturday.
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Heavy Crew,
You seem to think that if you are benchmarked your pay will change. Benchmarking is a paper exercise comparing salaries, and whatever else you want to include, with similar companies doing a similar job. It DOESN'T mean you get a pay cut or a pay rise. All it means is that when the "Muppets" rant on about how much you earn and how little you work, you have hard proof as to where you are in the big game.
So, apart from my balls , what is it that is clearly in front of my face?
Oh, and why do you think I'm a pilot and why do you think I'm male?
You seem to think that if you are benchmarked your pay will change. Benchmarking is a paper exercise comparing salaries, and whatever else you want to include, with similar companies doing a similar job. It DOESN'T mean you get a pay cut or a pay rise. All it means is that when the "Muppets" rant on about how much you earn and how little you work, you have hard proof as to where you are in the big game.
Well its muppets like you that won't accept what is clearly infront of your face.
, what is it that is clearly in front of my face?Oh, and why do you think I'm a pilot and why do you think I'm male?
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Heavy Crew:
So when the 777 has only two pilots, do they move the 1st class seat into the Flight Deck then?
and modest too. How do you cope with the perfection?
Thank God I am not married to you. You remind me of my ex.
L337
So when the 777 has only two pilots, do they move the 1st class seat into the Flight Deck then?
Lets be honest Every post I have made has been accurate
Thank God I am not married to you. You remind me of my ex.
L337