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Well, with all the rhetoric it is difficult to make a start. It seems to me that an awful lot of people have had to put up with the indifferent self-service, cheap culture that has developed over the last 20 years.
People realise now that if they can afford to pay then life gets better for those who pay and also for those who get paid to do what the rest don't want to do (as they get paid more). No one wants to sit in seats where previous passengers have relieved themselves and it is also more fun to enjoy travelling rather than have to grin and bear it.
The LCC will suit some, the tradtional carriers will suit others. People will eventually work where they are happy and contented - paid more and working hard, or paid less and taking life easy. Or, in between, changing careers because the grass is greener. As you get older it gets harder but don't hang in there because of the pension - it may not be there when you want it.
Have fun, enjoy your job if you can and if not - there is another life out there. Better to work at NCP having once cruised the skies than working at NCP wishing you had.
Am I bitter and twisted?
People realise now that if they can afford to pay then life gets better for those who pay and also for those who get paid to do what the rest don't want to do (as they get paid more). No one wants to sit in seats where previous passengers have relieved themselves and it is also more fun to enjoy travelling rather than have to grin and bear it.
The LCC will suit some, the tradtional carriers will suit others. People will eventually work where they are happy and contented - paid more and working hard, or paid less and taking life easy. Or, in between, changing careers because the grass is greener. As you get older it gets harder but don't hang in there because of the pension - it may not be there when you want it.
Have fun, enjoy your job if you can and if not - there is another life out there. Better to work at NCP having once cruised the skies than working at NCP wishing you had.
Am I bitter and twisted?
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Well 20 pages on , and it is sad to see it come to all this, but i think on balance swiss_tonni hasn't had much support over his sad little vitriolic attack 
One thing thats blatantly clear at BA, and you can't ignore facts, is that we are still way too top heavy, yet crewed at LCC levels , while offering a premium service.
So if you're REALLY looking at ways to save money, take a closer look around you. It seems strange you have to pick on crew.
Have a good look around Waterside and report back.
I don't know what his little problem is, maybe spurned by a crew member, but he has failed to point out the following ....
That many of the cabin crew have been there 10yrs,20yrs,30yrs +.....
Naturally with a corresponding payrise each year their salaries will climb in due course.
Most of the incomes are very average ........
If you are that unhappy then just go swiss_tonni - or apply to cabin services and become a crew member on this remarkable salary you imagine there to be.
Then you can get up at 4am every morning / wipe sick up / serve 120 passengers drinks on your own in 50 minutes / be harangued by 'C' passengers constantly / have no break on a 12 hour duty at all / .......... or is that too far removed from nursing your little latté for hours in a calm & serene oasis???
I've stated my salary on here before,nothing amazing after over 10 years service ...... as i said before my car is almost 10 years old too, v high mileage and i have no hope of replacing it.......
A friend of mine was recently seconded to a management department, and they were shocked at the level of total inactivity that was evident.
If the same were to be found onboard one of our aircraft , the crew would be instantly dismissed.
Then again, you can't hide from 400 passengers in the same way that you can hide behind a PC . Can you?
One thing thats blatantly clear at BA, and you can't ignore facts, is that we are still way too top heavy, yet crewed at LCC levels , while offering a premium service.
So if you're REALLY looking at ways to save money, take a closer look around you. It seems strange you have to pick on crew.
Have a good look around Waterside and report back.
I don't know what his little problem is, maybe spurned by a crew member, but he has failed to point out the following ....
That many of the cabin crew have been there 10yrs,20yrs,30yrs +.....
Naturally with a corresponding payrise each year their salaries will climb in due course.
Most of the incomes are very average ........
If you are that unhappy then just go swiss_tonni - or apply to cabin services and become a crew member on this remarkable salary you imagine there to be.
Then you can get up at 4am every morning / wipe sick up / serve 120 passengers drinks on your own in 50 minutes / be harangued by 'C' passengers constantly / have no break on a 12 hour duty at all / .......... or is that too far removed from nursing your little latté for hours in a calm & serene oasis???
I've stated my salary on here before,nothing amazing after over 10 years service ...... as i said before my car is almost 10 years old too, v high mileage and i have no hope of replacing it.......
A friend of mine was recently seconded to a management department, and they were shocked at the level of total inactivity that was evident.
If the same were to be found onboard one of our aircraft , the crew would be instantly dismissed.
Then again, you can't hide from 400 passengers in the same way that you can hide behind a PC . Can you?
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Loaded, you forgot the proposed sterling£66 transatlantic fares 
out of Deutschland.
Swingeing cuts you propose that although a step in the right direction and probable ultimately necessary will do nothing other than engender more ill feeling in the company.
Instead of such drastic cuts as you identified directly affecting the "front of house"staff that made the airline "the worlds favourite, you will need to take an educational approach to try to rationalise to those company employees what is needed. Unfortunately that would invovle the unions who traditionally have little capacity for forward knowledge, their leadership long since forgetting what work is lke in favour of a desk job and the perks of being a union boss.
In any company, to increase shareholder value you need to make profit. there are only two guaranteed ways of doing this....cut costs. which BA has, and will need to continue to do, but you mustn't neglect to increase sales for an increased income, and you will need to work towards this also.
It is patently unfiar to base any comparisons between any long haul flag carrier with any LCC. Bottom line, yes both types of operator both carry passengers,but that is (currently) it :
There are offcosts and on costs associated with LH that the LCC's havent historically had to provide, when they begin these operations they will see their costs increase . Perhaps the operating cost savings offered by the 7e7 will contribute towards reducing the net impact of this increase, but the 7e7 will not be available in sufficient numbers until well into the next decade to satisfy this demand. insofar as aircraft provision, Boeing have to market the 7e7 as a p2p aircraft as an alternate market for buyers who are looking for the 380 which has been based on a 30 year economic model proven by boeing itself with the 74 series. It is a long time until the 7e7 is available, but conversely, the 7e7 is not providing anything, other than operating economies that the 767/777, dont already.
The threat of new eastern european start ups with lower on costs isn't an new threat...think of the eastern carriers and their labour advantages. If we werent the only EU nation to acknowledge the EU legislation BA wouldn't be disadvantaged. Every other eu legacy carrier gets support in some form or another. Think KLM AF northwest tie ups as anticompetitive at europes only 5 runway airport....why cant BA tie up wioth someone without surrendering some of the most profitable slots at LHR..
Concessions to the regulators need to be made to make some ground back. retreat fully from LGW, surrender all slots there but maintain LHR fully. Use T5 as the H&S operation for mainline and rebrand CitiX as the LCC side of the airline using a hub out of Man, and other P2P in exchange for the slots given up at LGW. Mainline and CitiX are already run as separate operations. a little fleet consolidation/rationalisation would be required. Mainline an eintirely 777 fleet. You have the benefits of LCC model for the premium service. Use CitiX with a newer fleet.
In respect of your management, take the time and trouble to find out why you need so many managers. Yes you are slightly top heavy, but only becuase of the cuts imposed over the last 3 years. Anyone calling for management cuts to LCC levels needs to take a look at the operational requirements of the airline and what is needed behind the scenes to make this happen, then factor in the other legacy operations that go on and the services provided that are not pax oriented.BA holidays, BA credit cards......one world.......payroll....pensions.......planned maintenance management........a/c procurement property acquisition and disposal......accounts....... christ I could go on for ages. Management levels will fall too.
Loaded & Swiss T are both right, you will need to change, you will neeed to cut costs further, try not to focus on a single group within the company but across the board. Better to do it in a cooperative organised fashion where you can negotiate the phasing out of benefits and trade off for some element of profit related pay than to rely on the liquidator going balls out for TUPE when someone steps in,
must go now. work beckons
out of Deutschland.Swingeing cuts you propose that although a step in the right direction and probable ultimately necessary will do nothing other than engender more ill feeling in the company.
Instead of such drastic cuts as you identified directly affecting the "front of house"staff that made the airline "the worlds favourite, you will need to take an educational approach to try to rationalise to those company employees what is needed. Unfortunately that would invovle the unions who traditionally have little capacity for forward knowledge, their leadership long since forgetting what work is lke in favour of a desk job and the perks of being a union boss.
In any company, to increase shareholder value you need to make profit. there are only two guaranteed ways of doing this....cut costs. which BA has, and will need to continue to do, but you mustn't neglect to increase sales for an increased income, and you will need to work towards this also.
It is patently unfiar to base any comparisons between any long haul flag carrier with any LCC. Bottom line, yes both types of operator both carry passengers,but that is (currently) it :
There are offcosts and on costs associated with LH that the LCC's havent historically had to provide, when they begin these operations they will see their costs increase . Perhaps the operating cost savings offered by the 7e7 will contribute towards reducing the net impact of this increase, but the 7e7 will not be available in sufficient numbers until well into the next decade to satisfy this demand. insofar as aircraft provision, Boeing have to market the 7e7 as a p2p aircraft as an alternate market for buyers who are looking for the 380 which has been based on a 30 year economic model proven by boeing itself with the 74 series. It is a long time until the 7e7 is available, but conversely, the 7e7 is not providing anything, other than operating economies that the 767/777, dont already.
The threat of new eastern european start ups with lower on costs isn't an new threat...think of the eastern carriers and their labour advantages. If we werent the only EU nation to acknowledge the EU legislation BA wouldn't be disadvantaged. Every other eu legacy carrier gets support in some form or another. Think KLM AF northwest tie ups as anticompetitive at europes only 5 runway airport....why cant BA tie up wioth someone without surrendering some of the most profitable slots at LHR..
Concessions to the regulators need to be made to make some ground back. retreat fully from LGW, surrender all slots there but maintain LHR fully. Use T5 as the H&S operation for mainline and rebrand CitiX as the LCC side of the airline using a hub out of Man, and other P2P in exchange for the slots given up at LGW. Mainline and CitiX are already run as separate operations. a little fleet consolidation/rationalisation would be required. Mainline an eintirely 777 fleet. You have the benefits of LCC model for the premium service. Use CitiX with a newer fleet.
In respect of your management, take the time and trouble to find out why you need so many managers. Yes you are slightly top heavy, but only becuase of the cuts imposed over the last 3 years. Anyone calling for management cuts to LCC levels needs to take a look at the operational requirements of the airline and what is needed behind the scenes to make this happen, then factor in the other legacy operations that go on and the services provided that are not pax oriented.BA holidays, BA credit cards......one world.......payroll....pensions.......planned maintenance management........a/c procurement property acquisition and disposal......accounts....... christ I could go on for ages. Management levels will fall too.
Loaded & Swiss T are both right, you will need to change, you will neeed to cut costs further, try not to focus on a single group within the company but across the board. Better to do it in a cooperative organised fashion where you can negotiate the phasing out of benefits and trade off for some element of profit related pay than to rely on the liquidator going balls out for TUPE when someone steps in,
must go now. work beckons
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I think it's high time this thread was locked.......
It's like a perpetual see-saw, and is now totally counter-productive.
Everyones had their dig, dragged BA c/c's morale down to even lower depths . . .and its just going round and around......
If things were that amazing , then there wouldn't be an all time high of cabin crew leaving.....
I think everyones had an opportunity to make up their own minds.
I just pity 'swiss_tonni' for feeling so vindictive as to start all this up in the first place - - it's ok, we know who you are
Perhaps the next similar thread will be about the likes of you....
It's like a perpetual see-saw, and is now totally counter-productive.
Everyones had their dig, dragged BA c/c's morale down to even lower depths . . .and its just going round and around......
If things were that amazing , then there wouldn't be an all time high of cabin crew leaving.....
I think everyones had an opportunity to make up their own minds.
I just pity 'swiss_tonni' for feeling so vindictive as to start all this up in the first place - - it's ok, we know who you are
Perhaps the next similar thread will be about the likes of you....
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Well, the fun's started.
New pilots to be recruited without a Final Salary structured pension but a Money Purchase Scheme instead. No doubt new Cabin Crew are already on the same deal.
Guess how much money you need in a money purchase "pot" to buy a pension of £30,000 a year with an inflation proof element up to 5%?
Answer, at recent annuity rates:
£1.3 million pounds.
The stock market's gonna have to go some to do that, even if you join at 18! Most observers reckon that the market is in for another FALL due to excess valuations in the USA, and that the long term outlook is for very modest growth in the future.
Can BA keep the existing Final Salary Scheme, NAPS, for existing members?
You have two employees doing the same job. One costs circa 20% more than the other due to being in a FSS.
It's a no-brainer again. As soon as the deficit in NAPS has been reduced to the point where it is possible to pay-off the obligations accrued to date by the members of the now-closed to new joiners scheme, then that too will be shut down.
Pensions are dead. It's nigh on impossible to save enough in a Money Purchase Scheme to buy an annuity to retire on.
So: we have to lobby for another thing besides a new FTL regime and a move for the company's AOC to a "regulation lite" (read low-cost) environment.
We MUST lobby for a raise in the Compulsory Retirement Age to WAY above 60! Retirement will not be an option!! And anyway, if we do secure a pensions deal that keeps existing members in NAPS within the scheme then the company will go broke trying to meet its obligations!!
Massive salary cuts or the company is going under! There is no alternative. Do ANYTHING but accept it and the company is finished anyway.
As for swiss toni: why the hatred of cabin crew? Those payments you posted are incredibly tax efficient for BA compared to salary because
1. They aren't paid unless the crew member flies.
2. They dont attract National Insurance.
3. They are'nt pensionable.
Its CHEAP money. C'mon s toni, with the greatest of due respect, what kinda manager are ya?
Like I say, the CC I see strive to remain cheerfull in a demanding and often hostile environment and I salute them for it.
New pilots to be recruited without a Final Salary structured pension but a Money Purchase Scheme instead. No doubt new Cabin Crew are already on the same deal.
Guess how much money you need in a money purchase "pot" to buy a pension of £30,000 a year with an inflation proof element up to 5%?
Answer, at recent annuity rates:
£1.3 million pounds.
The stock market's gonna have to go some to do that, even if you join at 18! Most observers reckon that the market is in for another FALL due to excess valuations in the USA, and that the long term outlook is for very modest growth in the future.
Can BA keep the existing Final Salary Scheme, NAPS, for existing members?
You have two employees doing the same job. One costs circa 20% more than the other due to being in a FSS.
It's a no-brainer again. As soon as the deficit in NAPS has been reduced to the point where it is possible to pay-off the obligations accrued to date by the members of the now-closed to new joiners scheme, then that too will be shut down.
Pensions are dead. It's nigh on impossible to save enough in a Money Purchase Scheme to buy an annuity to retire on.
So: we have to lobby for another thing besides a new FTL regime and a move for the company's AOC to a "regulation lite" (read low-cost) environment.
We MUST lobby for a raise in the Compulsory Retirement Age to WAY above 60! Retirement will not be an option!! And anyway, if we do secure a pensions deal that keeps existing members in NAPS within the scheme then the company will go broke trying to meet its obligations!!
Massive salary cuts or the company is going under! There is no alternative. Do ANYTHING but accept it and the company is finished anyway.
As for swiss toni: why the hatred of cabin crew? Those payments you posted are incredibly tax efficient for BA compared to salary because
1. They aren't paid unless the crew member flies.
2. They dont attract National Insurance.
3. They are'nt pensionable.
Its CHEAP money. C'mon s toni, with the greatest of due respect, what kinda manager are ya?
Like I say, the CC I see strive to remain cheerfull in a demanding and often hostile environment and I salute them for it.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Like I say, the CC I see strive to remain cheerfull in a demanding and often hostile environment and I salute them for it.
I gave up BALPA a while back, but when I quit I understood that the fiery statement had been issued (now, was that from our 'closet' BA manager/BACC chairman, perchance
) that when the FIRST new BA pilot entrant was placed on a MP pension scheme, it would be war!Have the call-up papers gone out yet?
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Yesterday's FT pretty much sums up the hopeless cause for all of us in "legacy carriers". I'm insufficiently "techie" to know how to link to an online version but under the "Companies and Markets" section is an article about us all.
For a start, US Air is deemed "a basket case", in so many words. United is alive only due to Federal loan guarantees, American = walking wounded. Alitalia only afloat because its an election year in Italy, Air Canada the same - its election time.
NOT ONE SINGLE AIRBUS delivery is going to a legacy carrier in North America this year - its ALL to LCC's.
I worked incredibly hard to get where I am in the industry but have to face the fact that there is NO HOPE AT ALL of retiring on a pension from my current employer outwith the measly rights I've accrued to date.
Like so many "manufacturing/service" jobs, (factories/call centres), my job, with all the responsibility and effort required to get to even sit in the seat where I am, has been effectively "off-shored" to a lower cost centre of production.
In reality I see this as just the first stage, and that even O'Leery will be challenged by wages that make us all look like princes. Wages make up 27% of BA's costs. Less perhaps for Easy and Ryan, but still a very significant sum.
I bet a pound for every dollar that an operator will produce a business model based on the accession EU countries labour rates that provides EVEN Easy and Ryan with a major costs headache.
Its incredible to my mind that this has happened, but thats modern life and I know I'm lucky to have done the things I have.
Given the JAR self-regulation type environment I see standards heading south all the time too: look at our rail networks recent performance for a vision of the future if we are all not very careful.
Its all a great shame, but there it is.
For a start, US Air is deemed "a basket case", in so many words. United is alive only due to Federal loan guarantees, American = walking wounded. Alitalia only afloat because its an election year in Italy, Air Canada the same - its election time.
NOT ONE SINGLE AIRBUS delivery is going to a legacy carrier in North America this year - its ALL to LCC's.
I worked incredibly hard to get where I am in the industry but have to face the fact that there is NO HOPE AT ALL of retiring on a pension from my current employer outwith the measly rights I've accrued to date.
Like so many "manufacturing/service" jobs, (factories/call centres), my job, with all the responsibility and effort required to get to even sit in the seat where I am, has been effectively "off-shored" to a lower cost centre of production.
In reality I see this as just the first stage, and that even O'Leery will be challenged by wages that make us all look like princes. Wages make up 27% of BA's costs. Less perhaps for Easy and Ryan, but still a very significant sum.
I bet a pound for every dollar that an operator will produce a business model based on the accession EU countries labour rates that provides EVEN Easy and Ryan with a major costs headache.
Its incredible to my mind that this has happened, but thats modern life and I know I'm lucky to have done the things I have.
Given the JAR self-regulation type environment I see standards heading south all the time too: look at our rail networks recent performance for a vision of the future if we are all not very careful.
Its all a great shame, but there it is.
Last edited by loaded1; 29th Apr 2004 at 09:23.
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"War", BOAC well if BALPA have declared it then you can bet your 1% it was done with a white flag in the other hand. Just remember George Orwell's Animal Farm "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others" in the books case they were pigs who uttered those comments.
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Well here I am again.......this is depressing.
I am saddenned that few people on PPRUNE actually read other peoples post. Its more like a noticeboard, as individuals mention others, but nearly always fail to answer the points raised.
I ask again, if anyone knows of a position, function, job or duty which is unnecessary, email Rod with the details. Has anyone done that as yet?
Now, Loaded 1, I dont hate cabin crew, I just raised a few items concerning the amount of training they receive, the amount of remuneration they receive compared to other jobs, the way they are paid, and how they are viewed outside their own community.
You also say "what kinda manager are ya?". This is one of the big problems in BA. Anyone outside the flight crew and cabin crew community seems to be deemed to be a "manager".
As I stated earlier, I wear a suit. I am one of the "suits". I have to wear a suit because that is accepted business wear. Not all people who wear suits are "managers". Get that into your heads please.
Some of those people in suits make sure that flight plans are filed, and on which routes, that people are paid, that numerous tasks required by JAR-OPS are complied with, and also run those "additional" "nice to have things" such as SESMA. We are not all "chiefs". Most of the "indians" are also required to wear suits.
Anti-ice, I wasn't being vindictive, I was merely posting an item which had been faxed around BA, and the world. It is, and was at the time, fact. It shows how some groups have BA over a barrel. I subsequently showed how complicated the cabin crew pay structure is. That complexity needs administration. People to input data, check it etc. People have spoken of the impact of low cost carriers. Their operations are simplified, from the way tickets are bought, to the way passengers check in, to the way staff are paid. We need that sort of simplification at BA.
You say "look around Waterside" to see the surplus staff. Sorry, but in the bit I work in, we are flat out. And so are others. We all, yes all in BA, are working harder than we have in the past. We need to, we want to stay in our jobs, and to see BA survive and prosper.
Now, to just stay alive, and even to improve, BA needs its staff to be happy, to work together, and to enjoy a reasonable standard of living. We must simplify the way that we do the things which dont impact on our passengers.
And to the correspondent who says "we know who you are". I dont think you do. I do not post, or access, PPRUNE from any work PC's. To prevent any "unwanted or undesirable" email, I have asked a couple of friends around the world if they could post the messages I send them via email. This is done at internet cafe's. Prevents my kids, seeing, or reading anything unsavoury.
toodle pip
swiss_tonni
.................who knows, I really could be RE himself!
I am saddenned that few people on PPRUNE actually read other peoples post. Its more like a noticeboard, as individuals mention others, but nearly always fail to answer the points raised.
I ask again, if anyone knows of a position, function, job or duty which is unnecessary, email Rod with the details. Has anyone done that as yet?
Now, Loaded 1, I dont hate cabin crew, I just raised a few items concerning the amount of training they receive, the amount of remuneration they receive compared to other jobs, the way they are paid, and how they are viewed outside their own community.
You also say "what kinda manager are ya?". This is one of the big problems in BA. Anyone outside the flight crew and cabin crew community seems to be deemed to be a "manager".
As I stated earlier, I wear a suit. I am one of the "suits". I have to wear a suit because that is accepted business wear. Not all people who wear suits are "managers". Get that into your heads please.
Some of those people in suits make sure that flight plans are filed, and on which routes, that people are paid, that numerous tasks required by JAR-OPS are complied with, and also run those "additional" "nice to have things" such as SESMA. We are not all "chiefs". Most of the "indians" are also required to wear suits.
Anti-ice, I wasn't being vindictive, I was merely posting an item which had been faxed around BA, and the world. It is, and was at the time, fact. It shows how some groups have BA over a barrel. I subsequently showed how complicated the cabin crew pay structure is. That complexity needs administration. People to input data, check it etc. People have spoken of the impact of low cost carriers. Their operations are simplified, from the way tickets are bought, to the way passengers check in, to the way staff are paid. We need that sort of simplification at BA.
You say "look around Waterside" to see the surplus staff. Sorry, but in the bit I work in, we are flat out. And so are others. We all, yes all in BA, are working harder than we have in the past. We need to, we want to stay in our jobs, and to see BA survive and prosper.
Now, to just stay alive, and even to improve, BA needs its staff to be happy, to work together, and to enjoy a reasonable standard of living. We must simplify the way that we do the things which dont impact on our passengers.
And to the correspondent who says "we know who you are". I dont think you do. I do not post, or access, PPRUNE from any work PC's. To prevent any "unwanted or undesirable" email, I have asked a couple of friends around the world if they could post the messages I send them via email. This is done at internet cafe's. Prevents my kids, seeing, or reading anything unsavoury.
toodle pip
swiss_tonni
.................who knows, I really could be RE himself!
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Swiss_toni, whoever you are, however you send your messages, and despite the vituperation some of these have recieved, they do appear to make sense to some of us who have followed with dismay the hostile and hardline unionist approach taken by others in BA.
Unfortunately as in most cases, though thankfully a minority, they still manage to cause disruption, dismay and economic damage out of all proportion to their numbers.
Unfortunately as in most cases, though thankfully a minority, they still manage to cause disruption, dismay and economic damage out of all proportion to their numbers.
