Attention BA staff and shareholders
Join Date: May 2001
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I think swiss toni should be congratualated for bringing this information into the public domain.
It highlites the extent of the problem that exists within BA and very specifically within cabin services.
There can be no doubt that BA cabin crew are overpaid,particularly in long haul.
I recall a stopover in mexico some 3-4 years ago.Coming up to tax return time and the 4 pursers and csd discussing their annual gross salary.It ranged from 43 to 60k.more than most junior pilots in the company.
They operate within the confines of an industrial agreement that should have been consigned to the dustbin years ago.
I have experienced first hand, the intransigence and apathy that many of them display toward BA, the very organisation that provides them with what ammounts to very generous terms and conditions.
I can site,literally,dozens of examples when their inflexibility and unwillingness to go the extra mile when the job needs to get done has lead to massive disruption to the customer and cost the company thousands of pounds.
The pilot community in BA have been through a benchmarking process to ascertain where we stand with respect to our terms and conditions and other major european airlines.
It is clear the the pilot community in BA offer the organisation value for money as well as efficiency and flexibility.
Other longhaul airlines operate with less crew than we do-and i am sure for less money.I am sure that they also provide a full service.
perhaps the benchmarking process should be extended to cabin services?
jumbo
It highlites the extent of the problem that exists within BA and very specifically within cabin services.
There can be no doubt that BA cabin crew are overpaid,particularly in long haul.
I recall a stopover in mexico some 3-4 years ago.Coming up to tax return time and the 4 pursers and csd discussing their annual gross salary.It ranged from 43 to 60k.more than most junior pilots in the company.
They operate within the confines of an industrial agreement that should have been consigned to the dustbin years ago.
I have experienced first hand, the intransigence and apathy that many of them display toward BA, the very organisation that provides them with what ammounts to very generous terms and conditions.
I can site,literally,dozens of examples when their inflexibility and unwillingness to go the extra mile when the job needs to get done has lead to massive disruption to the customer and cost the company thousands of pounds.
The pilot community in BA have been through a benchmarking process to ascertain where we stand with respect to our terms and conditions and other major european airlines.
It is clear the the pilot community in BA offer the organisation value for money as well as efficiency and flexibility.
Other longhaul airlines operate with less crew than we do-and i am sure for less money.I am sure that they also provide a full service.
perhaps the benchmarking process should be extended to cabin services?
jumbo
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Benchmarking - yes please. I look forward to my improved salary, benefits and T&C's
Why do you think the management don't want to see this - it'll end up being more expensive.
I think we could all do worse than to re-read the 'Diverse' posting and taking time to inwardly digest.
Why do you think the management don't want to see this - it'll end up being more expensive.
I think we could all do worse than to re-read the 'Diverse' posting and taking time to inwardly digest.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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lol jumbo
Well jumbo you have been had!!
all i can say is those pursers and csd got you good and proper .. you shouldnt believe what you eaves drop on. Not to even begin a discussion regarding how long those people had been with the airline and how many years service they had given compared to your junior pilots.
As for the other long haul airlines who operate with less crew than we do.... yes there are some... but only the ones with rotten customer service reputations!! Airlines we are in competition with for service awards such as cathay, singapore, thai etc ... have MORE.
I personally feel quite sick at the jealousy, back stabbing, petty name calling and bitterness displayed here ... thats all it boils down to.
Swiss toni, the very fact that you have to hide behind someone elses ip and email says it all to me! And i can only take comfort in the belief that what goes around comes around... as someone else stated... bring on the bench marking youre so keen on... we all know how top heavy we are in the managers department..
The rest of you.. I dont believe for one minute that if you were offered this money to work outside your agreement .. you would say ... "oh no!! thanks but no thanks BA... you just keep your money! i dont need it! Ill work as much as you want me to as short staffed as you want me to for nothing more!!!"
To everyone else who has engaged in the new sport of crew bashing... i feel sorry for you that you have nothing else to do with your time. If you truly believe youre capable of doing a crew member job, and you want the money you imagine we make yet dont deserve SOOO much.. i believe there are openings.
you will be expected to work as a nurse , a cook, a waitress, a barman, a babysitter, a counsellor, a secretary , a shop assistant, a communicator, a policeman, a security guard, a fireman, a linguist or translator, a care assistant, a travel agent, a newspaper deliverer, a cleaner, a toilet monitor, a night watchman, a diplomat.
Youll need to deal with sick people, dead people, bereaved people, drunk people, rude people, aggressive people, nice people, sad people, threatening behaviour, upset people, nervous people, people so petrified they cannot breathe or let go of your hand... from infants...to illiterate people, from brain surgeons to royalty, from those with learning difficulties to those with behavioral problems, from those threatening miscarriage or birth to thosewith terminal illnesses going home to die.
You might be away from home and get a call to say your mother died or your child got sick and is in hospital, you might miss his first words or his first steps, you will never be there for all of his birthday parties or school plays.
But because you want to be cabin crew you will accept all this... however... noone will ever notice what you do, what you accept and tolerate... only when you get a little something extra will anyone care and notice.
still want to join?
all i can say is those pursers and csd got you good and proper .. you shouldnt believe what you eaves drop on. Not to even begin a discussion regarding how long those people had been with the airline and how many years service they had given compared to your junior pilots.
As for the other long haul airlines who operate with less crew than we do.... yes there are some... but only the ones with rotten customer service reputations!! Airlines we are in competition with for service awards such as cathay, singapore, thai etc ... have MORE.
I personally feel quite sick at the jealousy, back stabbing, petty name calling and bitterness displayed here ... thats all it boils down to.
Swiss toni, the very fact that you have to hide behind someone elses ip and email says it all to me! And i can only take comfort in the belief that what goes around comes around... as someone else stated... bring on the bench marking youre so keen on... we all know how top heavy we are in the managers department..
The rest of you.. I dont believe for one minute that if you were offered this money to work outside your agreement .. you would say ... "oh no!! thanks but no thanks BA... you just keep your money! i dont need it! Ill work as much as you want me to as short staffed as you want me to for nothing more!!!"
To everyone else who has engaged in the new sport of crew bashing... i feel sorry for you that you have nothing else to do with your time. If you truly believe youre capable of doing a crew member job, and you want the money you imagine we make yet dont deserve SOOO much.. i believe there are openings.
you will be expected to work as a nurse , a cook, a waitress, a barman, a babysitter, a counsellor, a secretary , a shop assistant, a communicator, a policeman, a security guard, a fireman, a linguist or translator, a care assistant, a travel agent, a newspaper deliverer, a cleaner, a toilet monitor, a night watchman, a diplomat.
Youll need to deal with sick people, dead people, bereaved people, drunk people, rude people, aggressive people, nice people, sad people, threatening behaviour, upset people, nervous people, people so petrified they cannot breathe or let go of your hand... from infants...to illiterate people, from brain surgeons to royalty, from those with learning difficulties to those with behavioral problems, from those threatening miscarriage or birth to thosewith terminal illnesses going home to die.
You might be away from home and get a call to say your mother died or your child got sick and is in hospital, you might miss his first words or his first steps, you will never be there for all of his birthday parties or school plays.
But because you want to be cabin crew you will accept all this... however... noone will ever notice what you do, what you accept and tolerate... only when you get a little something extra will anyone care and notice.
still want to join?
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Wishing it were True –
Sorry you don’t agree, but I still maintain that no CC member is worth anything like a pilot’s wage. The £67k figure is quoted as a CSD salary on another thread about BA pay – if its been quoted wrong, so what? The principle is still the same. And if your new CC are signing up for less than £4.80 an hour, and then moaning about it, then they deserve all they get – which ain’t much by the sound of it!! By your own reckoning, you must be taking home c£22k pa – that’s about £29k before tax – don’t sound too bad? It’s a lot more than a nurse gets!
L337 –
Honestly, m8ty – you need to read my post a little more carefully! I didn’t say I work for BA – doh!!
ThS -
Oh dear! Rattled the cage a bit, did I?
I read your previous reply (!) to swiss toni, Swedish, turin et al.. Bloody hell!! We’ve got a right old Jekyll and Hyde here! How did YOU get past the selection board?
I’m very thankful that I won’t ever have the pleasure of your service when I next jet off somewhere nice – wouldn’t want to ruin my hols before they had really started! I take it that as you are on £10800, you must be a relatively “new-hire”. Typical – been there five minutes, and telling us all where we’re going wrong. Knows it all – knows f**k all! I think a portion of my investment in BA has been wasted on you – I shall ask for a refund! Anyway, £10800pa is plenty for you to go and buy a couple of kilos of extra “slap” to disguise that obviously permanently-ingrained scowl on your dial! Either that or go and sell some burgers – AND get a pay rise!!
Sorry you don’t agree, but I still maintain that no CC member is worth anything like a pilot’s wage. The £67k figure is quoted as a CSD salary on another thread about BA pay – if its been quoted wrong, so what? The principle is still the same. And if your new CC are signing up for less than £4.80 an hour, and then moaning about it, then they deserve all they get – which ain’t much by the sound of it!! By your own reckoning, you must be taking home c£22k pa – that’s about £29k before tax – don’t sound too bad? It’s a lot more than a nurse gets!
L337 –
Honestly, m8ty – you need to read my post a little more carefully! I didn’t say I work for BA – doh!!
ThS -
Oh dear! Rattled the cage a bit, did I?
I read your previous reply (!) to swiss toni, Swedish, turin et al.. Bloody hell!! We’ve got a right old Jekyll and Hyde here! How did YOU get past the selection board?
I’m very thankful that I won’t ever have the pleasure of your service when I next jet off somewhere nice – wouldn’t want to ruin my hols before they had really started! I take it that as you are on £10800, you must be a relatively “new-hire”. Typical – been there five minutes, and telling us all where we’re going wrong. Knows it all – knows f**k all! I think a portion of my investment in BA has been wasted on you – I shall ask for a refund! Anyway, £10800pa is plenty for you to go and buy a couple of kilos of extra “slap” to disguise that obviously permanently-ingrained scowl on your dial! Either that or go and sell some burgers – AND get a pay rise!!
Controversial, moi?
BA CC have to phone the union to get permission to extend duty, turnaround at base, whatever. And they often do this, to help the passengers.
DISAPOINTED
Thats no way to talk about your colleagues on the flight deck.
Youll need to deal with sick people, dead people, bereaved people, drunk people, rude people, aggressive people, nice people, sad people, threatening behaviour, upset people, nervous people, people so petrified they cannot breathe or let go of your hand...
LOL
PPRuNe Person
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Disappointed:
<To everyone else who has engaged in the new sport of crew bashing... i feel sorry for you that you have nothing else to do with your time>
I write this from a hotel room on an enforced night stop because crew wouldn't work beyond limits....
<To everyone else who has engaged in the new sport of crew bashing... i feel sorry for you that you have nothing else to do with your time>
I write this from a hotel room on an enforced night stop because crew wouldn't work beyond limits....
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limits
well there are limits we have a choice to work beyond and there are limits we cant legally work beyond...
any reason youre not out for a drink together with your colleagues ?
any reason youre not out for a drink together with your colleagues ?
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As someone outside BA, I take heart from the fact there is still someone in the company who is prepared to report such abuse of the system and still some BA Pprune contributors who are prepared to support them.
There is no other airline in the world that would, or could carry this attitude from the cabin staff.
Any one of thoise cabin staff who require such inducements as these could be replaced in four weeks by experienced cabin staff from the rest of the industry.
Heaven help the CSD's if BA ever hire cabin crew managers that are competent.
There is no other airline in the world that would, or could carry this attitude from the cabin staff.
Any one of thoise cabin staff who require such inducements as these could be replaced in four weeks by experienced cabin staff from the rest of the industry.
Heaven help the CSD's if BA ever hire cabin crew managers that are competent.
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Lou....
...... have you bothered to read ANY of the thread other than swiss toniis original posting?
There is NO abuse of any system here... if you think there is then perhaps you would care to detail what system exactly you are referring to.
Cabin Crew did not REQUIRE anything... we didnt say ..well we wont do this unless you pay us... it was OFFERED TO US .. WHY? because we are already working one crew member down and have been since 9/11 and for this week they NEEDED us to work ANOTHER crew member down. Now if ANYONE can hand on heart say they wouldnt take a payment they are offered by their employers i will debate that as being a fib. So i am not quite sure what ATTITUDE youre referring to ( trendy word to use in a posting though isnt it)
WHY did BA offer the payment? Because .. its more cost effective than cancelling the flight.
WHY did it need to happen in the first place? BECAUSE the twits at the top cocked up....
now perhaps you need to really think about WHY youre having such a go at crew ...especially when youre not even BA staff...
and finally...."Heaven help the CSD's if BA ever hire cabin crew managers that are competent "
why csds specifically?
This last statement of yours could apply to every dept within the airline as general consensus is that very few of our managers are competent.
There is NO abuse of any system here... if you think there is then perhaps you would care to detail what system exactly you are referring to.
Cabin Crew did not REQUIRE anything... we didnt say ..well we wont do this unless you pay us... it was OFFERED TO US .. WHY? because we are already working one crew member down and have been since 9/11 and for this week they NEEDED us to work ANOTHER crew member down. Now if ANYONE can hand on heart say they wouldnt take a payment they are offered by their employers i will debate that as being a fib. So i am not quite sure what ATTITUDE youre referring to ( trendy word to use in a posting though isnt it)
WHY did BA offer the payment? Because .. its more cost effective than cancelling the flight.
WHY did it need to happen in the first place? BECAUSE the twits at the top cocked up....
now perhaps you need to really think about WHY youre having such a go at crew ...especially when youre not even BA staff...
and finally...."Heaven help the CSD's if BA ever hire cabin crew managers that are competent "
why csds specifically?
This last statement of yours could apply to every dept within the airline as general consensus is that very few of our managers are competent.
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dissappointed-what an appropriate handle!
lou has every right to express an opinion here-this is a proffessional pilots forum and he is a proffessional pilot.
your attitude is exactly what is wrong within cabin services in BA.
Anal-to say the least.
jumbo
lou has every right to express an opinion here-this is a proffessional pilots forum and he is a proffessional pilot.
your attitude is exactly what is wrong within cabin services in BA.
Anal-to say the least.
jumbo
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is it not MY right to respond with my views then?
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This event seems to have opened up a wound which is possibly far deeper than the intial post would have people assume. There seems to be a deep seated and general dislike of cabin crew appearing in the posts which I don't come across when working online, maybe it all goes over my head, I hope not, I hope people can be frank and honest with me.
I hope I have been as courteous and hard working as possible to all the staff I have come into contact with in the last 5 years and resent the generalisations which have been posted on this forum about us all being money grubbing time wasters who wouldn't know a hard days work if it bit them.
I have met ignorant self opinionated and greedy people from all walks of life but have never been able to ascribe these character traits to one single profession and neither can anybody here.
I still love the job and will do it to the best of my ability, I will also never turn money away that is offered me.
Neither should anyone else.
I hope I have been as courteous and hard working as possible to all the staff I have come into contact with in the last 5 years and resent the generalisations which have been posted on this forum about us all being money grubbing time wasters who wouldn't know a hard days work if it bit them.
I have met ignorant self opinionated and greedy people from all walks of life but have never been able to ascribe these character traits to one single profession and neither can anybody here.
I still love the job and will do it to the best of my ability, I will also never turn money away that is offered me.
Neither should anyone else.
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disappointed
Quote
"WHY did BA offer the payment? Because .. its more cost effective than cancelling the flight."
How could that happen? - because the UNION would tell them to.
Thats a trade union like the one i belong too, strange mine doesn't tell me anything about having to work in the P***ing rain with 24 B737 at 3 am in the morning - shame i have a s*** union but that's what its all its about,its not " Aviation Law "
WHY did it need to happen in the first place? BECAUSE the twits at the top cocked up....
- Well that's your impression but its just " Union Interpretation " - If the BA CC managers want to fly a Jumbo with 10 CC total even if BA lost all its Pax appeal, that's their choice surely - all i and you can do is show them the error of their ways.
Quote
"WHY did BA offer the payment? Because .. its more cost effective than cancelling the flight."
How could that happen? - because the UNION would tell them to.
Thats a trade union like the one i belong too, strange mine doesn't tell me anything about having to work in the P***ing rain with 24 B737 at 3 am in the morning - shame i have a s*** union but that's what its all its about,its not " Aviation Law "
WHY did it need to happen in the first place? BECAUSE the twits at the top cocked up....
- Well that's your impression but its just " Union Interpretation " - If the BA CC managers want to fly a Jumbo with 10 CC total even if BA lost all its Pax appeal, that's their choice surely - all i and you can do is show them the error of their ways.
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Ok......
I agree with some points being made but disagree with others.
The only thing I can say to some is try working for a BA franchise where we have 6 days on 2 days off almost all summer with maybe one 12 hr nightstop a month, and have just been told if we request days off in one month our days off could be reduced to 1 between blocks of flying !!!!!! We now operate 1 crew down on all flights under 3 hrs. Our union has just offered 2% payrise for cabin crew to have it chucked back in there faces...... I for one would love a payment for going one crew down but that is never going to happen here.
To all the BA cabin crew out there..... I dont really agree with what the BA boffins are offering you.... but you are all hard working,friendly and skilled people and enjoy your job
I agree with some points being made but disagree with others.
The only thing I can say to some is try working for a BA franchise where we have 6 days on 2 days off almost all summer with maybe one 12 hr nightstop a month, and have just been told if we request days off in one month our days off could be reduced to 1 between blocks of flying !!!!!! We now operate 1 crew down on all flights under 3 hrs. Our union has just offered 2% payrise for cabin crew to have it chucked back in there faces...... I for one would love a payment for going one crew down but that is never going to happen here.
To all the BA cabin crew out there..... I dont really agree with what the BA boffins are offering you.... but you are all hard working,friendly and skilled people and enjoy your job
Junior trash
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I'd like to think that if overstress' crew are too tired to operate past industrial (Not LEGAL) limits then they are too tired to go for drinks. I suspect not, but we can hope.