Attention BA staff and shareholders
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That may be your basic, but if you're working a full time contract at LHR then you'd be unlucky to be taking home on average less than £1300 per month. Even if you only worked a ten month year ( to allow for leave, sickness and some bad allowance weeks), thats still a TAKE HOME of £13000 per year. By my reckoning you'd need to be on about £18000 per year gross to take that home in a normal job. Still think you're badly paid?
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And now for a dose of reality...
Website fiasco costs BA £40m
Jeremy Skidmore,
28 March 2004
BRITISH Airways is ready to write off an estimated £40m investment in loss-making travel website Opodo.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/b...d76350?source=
...puts the amounts paid to cabin crew, to be paid to GSS into some sort of perspective. And again chalk another one up to the suits - remember GO anyone?
Website fiasco costs BA £40m
Jeremy Skidmore,
28 March 2004
BRITISH Airways is ready to write off an estimated £40m investment in loss-making travel website Opodo.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/b...d76350?source=
...puts the amounts paid to cabin crew, to be paid to GSS into some sort of perspective. And again chalk another one up to the suits - remember GO anyone?
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wow!
hi guys!
Was just about to go to bed but decided to spend 40 mins reading this thread.
Now i've just started to work for BA, LH as it happens. Now When i first went into Waterworld, the first thing i thought was f**k! What the hell do all these people do? Is there any need?
I aint seen so many middle management in my life!
Anyway, lately on-line i've encountered many many of these middle management types on wait for it, a 3 three month secondment. We're talking sales, marketing here.
When i heard this i wondered what was the point of putting these people through 4 weeks training which cost x amount, only for them to moan that when on line, they were not making enough money and the working day was longer so then going back so they can sit at thier desk and work monday to friday!
Now as cabin crew i'm a bit insulted by the anyone can do the job. Would you be able to hanndle hearing someones ribs crack as you give chest compressions to keep them alive. Would anybody be able to deal with a death onboard with 3 hours to go before land. How would you console those on that aircraft? How would you console yourself? How would you handle a body go through the first stages of rigamortis and decay in front of you?
Then when the aircraft catches fire when in the air, who is trusted to put it out whilst suffering burns and toxic smoke inhalation? And should you wanna be picky, since the likes of the kegworth crash and sept 11 the cabin crew are the eyes and ears of the flight crew. Keeping a constant look out for anything unfimilar. Can guarentee that the pilots and the engineers aren't gonna get shot should an aircraft be hijacked!
Now i think BA is a great company, there is a lot of new fresh people coming into the company which will certainly give it a large boast in morale. What i dont like is someone saying that my job is worth nothing and really "chicken or beef" is the only thing i'm good at!
Now for however that said, i've an aero engineering background so yes i'd happily swap for the day and give it a "bash", pardon the pun oh and what can you say about someone who go's into the loo's and notices the lube and extra hard condoms. Curiosity there?
We're all meant to be part of the same team! Stop destroying each other!
Oh and for the the record, no i dont feel i get paid but isn't everyone like that?
nite
Was just about to go to bed but decided to spend 40 mins reading this thread.
Now i've just started to work for BA, LH as it happens. Now When i first went into Waterworld, the first thing i thought was f**k! What the hell do all these people do? Is there any need?
I aint seen so many middle management in my life!
Anyway, lately on-line i've encountered many many of these middle management types on wait for it, a 3 three month secondment. We're talking sales, marketing here.
When i heard this i wondered what was the point of putting these people through 4 weeks training which cost x amount, only for them to moan that when on line, they were not making enough money and the working day was longer so then going back so they can sit at thier desk and work monday to friday!
Now as cabin crew i'm a bit insulted by the anyone can do the job. Would you be able to hanndle hearing someones ribs crack as you give chest compressions to keep them alive. Would anybody be able to deal with a death onboard with 3 hours to go before land. How would you console those on that aircraft? How would you console yourself? How would you handle a body go through the first stages of rigamortis and decay in front of you?
Then when the aircraft catches fire when in the air, who is trusted to put it out whilst suffering burns and toxic smoke inhalation? And should you wanna be picky, since the likes of the kegworth crash and sept 11 the cabin crew are the eyes and ears of the flight crew. Keeping a constant look out for anything unfimilar. Can guarentee that the pilots and the engineers aren't gonna get shot should an aircraft be hijacked!
Now i think BA is a great company, there is a lot of new fresh people coming into the company which will certainly give it a large boast in morale. What i dont like is someone saying that my job is worth nothing and really "chicken or beef" is the only thing i'm good at!
Now for however that said, i've an aero engineering background so yes i'd happily swap for the day and give it a "bash", pardon the pun oh and what can you say about someone who go's into the loo's and notices the lube and extra hard condoms. Curiosity there?
We're all meant to be part of the same team! Stop destroying each other!
Oh and for the the record, no i dont feel i get paid but isn't everyone like that?
nite
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Kempus:
If youve just joined BA its far too early for you to have the remotest idea of what it takes to run, plan, market, sell, supply etc etc the airline, so judgements about the value of the people you see in Waterside are premature. The vast majority do useful jobs which come together with the departure of the aircraft which you get aboard without having to worry about buying it, when , from whom , for how much, negotiating the supply and purchase of everything from fuel to catering , planning its most profitable utilisation and route deployment, the landing and handling fees at each airports, the overflying charges, the manpower recruitment and development needs for the next few years ( unsurprising that there is the occasional glitch giving short term shortfalls), the costs of everything, keeping the shareholders happy, managing the often unnecessarily difficult industrial relations scene, figuring out the most effective marketing, sales and distribution strategies, securing the most favourable possible government agreements on traffic rights ( ie where you fly), getting the best achievable mix of yields on board, ensuring the right technical and other training, watching over your safety and security,making sure you are paid etc etc.
Most of the incidents you mention will happen once in a lifetime,- if that. You have got a life many envy.Enjoy it and start understanding and appreciate what others do to make your day a good one. Then you will start contributing.
If youve just joined BA its far too early for you to have the remotest idea of what it takes to run, plan, market, sell, supply etc etc the airline, so judgements about the value of the people you see in Waterside are premature. The vast majority do useful jobs which come together with the departure of the aircraft which you get aboard without having to worry about buying it, when , from whom , for how much, negotiating the supply and purchase of everything from fuel to catering , planning its most profitable utilisation and route deployment, the landing and handling fees at each airports, the overflying charges, the manpower recruitment and development needs for the next few years ( unsurprising that there is the occasional glitch giving short term shortfalls), the costs of everything, keeping the shareholders happy, managing the often unnecessarily difficult industrial relations scene, figuring out the most effective marketing, sales and distribution strategies, securing the most favourable possible government agreements on traffic rights ( ie where you fly), getting the best achievable mix of yields on board, ensuring the right technical and other training, watching over your safety and security,making sure you are paid etc etc.
Most of the incidents you mention will happen once in a lifetime,- if that. You have got a life many envy.Enjoy it and start understanding and appreciate what others do to make your day a good one. Then you will start contributing.
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Skylion Quite right, all of those areas need to be managed, but surely, the real question is, how much and by how many? I don't work for BA, and so don't know what the ratio of managers/office staff to flights is: However, if that ratio is significantly higher in BA than in competitor airlines, then BA would seem to have a problem, whereas if the ratio is lean and mean, then your post is competely valid.
Just out of interest, does anyone know whether BA is actually top heavy (i.e. it has been quantified) or whether the evidence is purely anecdotal and down to perception?
Just out of interest, does anyone know whether BA is actually top heavy (i.e. it has been quantified) or whether the evidence is purely anecdotal and down to perception?
easyJet will be running a fleet of 90 aircraft this summer with bases in 4 countries and that is still all managed out of 20 portacabins. This, frankly, shows sometimes 
Neverthless.
Cheers
WWW
Neverthless.
Cheers
WWW
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some facts, read in an article. BA has about 200 managers/flight, and other airlines have about 90/flight..
look at Waterworld... too bad if you can't see it..
A normal company will have a pyramid standing right.. with managers from the top, BA is the other way around.. it's stuck in the 80 is...
Skylion!
You wrote,
Enjoy it and start understanding and appreciate what others do to make your day a good one. Then you will start contributing..
I can have understanding for them to a 100%, but when they have NO understanding for mine.. We've got people running an airline, who has NO idea how to run an airline.. Only see their firstclass seat.. if they ever get on an aircraft
look at Waterworld... too bad if you can't see it..
A normal company will have a pyramid standing right.. with managers from the top, BA is the other way around.. it's stuck in the 80 is...
Skylion!
You wrote,
Enjoy it and start understanding and appreciate what others do to make your day a good one. Then you will start contributing..
I can have understanding for them to a 100%, but when they have NO understanding for mine.. We've got people running an airline, who has NO idea how to run an airline.. Only see their firstclass seat.. if they ever get on an aircraft
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It's a pity to read how a pilot thinks the various company managers don't know how to run an airline. Such a categorical statement shows poor judgment. I am certain BA management don't go in public stating how poor some pilots have performed in their recent checks etc. I wonder how well you really would perform in say the BA marketing team. Those jobs are challenging to say the least in present times and working hours are long.
How about some support to management. You are highly paid and have a great job with one of the largest airlines flying some of the newest aircraft. If you feel easyjet or some others are so much better why not join them. You will be satisfied for a day or two and then you will start the same song over again, right?
How about some support to management. You are highly paid and have a great job with one of the largest airlines flying some of the newest aircraft. If you feel easyjet or some others are so much better why not join them. You will be satisfied for a day or two and then you will start the same song over again, right?
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newbie
hi,
Yes a maybe new but i've never came across any company where the people working for it are so against it! If its that bad please go find another job instead of bringing the morale of the company down past a level it is already at! If my contribution to the company is nothing from day one you gotta ask yourself and your peers at waterside why the hell are we taking these folk on as we simply dont do anything for us.
I do understand what goes on at waterside and think you all do a great job in making BA such a name. What i was purley stating was that why is there so many doing the same job but with a different job title??
Maybe we should start closing down 1 or 2 resturants and cafe's at waterside then maybe some there will realise we're in this together.
kempus
Yes a maybe new but i've never came across any company where the people working for it are so against it! If its that bad please go find another job instead of bringing the morale of the company down past a level it is already at! If my contribution to the company is nothing from day one you gotta ask yourself and your peers at waterside why the hell are we taking these folk on as we simply dont do anything for us.
I do understand what goes on at waterside and think you all do a great job in making BA such a name. What i was purley stating was that why is there so many doing the same job but with a different job title??
Maybe we should start closing down 1 or 2 resturants and cafe's at waterside then maybe some there will realise we're in this together.
kempus
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ThS:
The notion that BAs management have no idea how to run an airline and all they see is their First Class seat is unfortunately part of the prejudicial way that too many on the flying side see people who arent actually operating on the aircraft. It is not a realistic or a helpful view. The " management" are not an over cossetted bunch of freeloaders, but for the most part dedicated, hard working and out to get the job done,- ie just like any other group. There are some poor managers just as there are some poor pilots, cabin crew, engineers and anyone else but dont lets get sidetracked into negative stereotypes by that.
All the established previous " national carriers " (BA, LH, AF. KL, AZ etc) need substantial organisational simplification which itself would bring numbers down. They do however have much more complex operations than the Low Costs which operate simple networks, mainly in the " first world" generally with one type of aircraft, with a very simple product and distribution systems. The new entrants have also been able to start with the clean sheet of paper which the unions have often denied BA, who are therefore stuck with working practices, rostering restrictions ,pay levels , structures and overall productivity which , if starting again, they would bin and rewrite.
BA does need to slim down, decide and focus on its priorities and become much more productive. This does not get away from the original proposition in this post,- which seems to have been trodden underfoot in some of the hysteria,- that it should not be having to buy every bit of flexibility it needs to keep its operation and service on the road at a high price. To be successful , its staff must WANT it to be successful and work together without demanding extra payments for anything out of the ordinary.
The notion that BAs management have no idea how to run an airline and all they see is their First Class seat is unfortunately part of the prejudicial way that too many on the flying side see people who arent actually operating on the aircraft. It is not a realistic or a helpful view. The " management" are not an over cossetted bunch of freeloaders, but for the most part dedicated, hard working and out to get the job done,- ie just like any other group. There are some poor managers just as there are some poor pilots, cabin crew, engineers and anyone else but dont lets get sidetracked into negative stereotypes by that.
All the established previous " national carriers " (BA, LH, AF. KL, AZ etc) need substantial organisational simplification which itself would bring numbers down. They do however have much more complex operations than the Low Costs which operate simple networks, mainly in the " first world" generally with one type of aircraft, with a very simple product and distribution systems. The new entrants have also been able to start with the clean sheet of paper which the unions have often denied BA, who are therefore stuck with working practices, rostering restrictions ,pay levels , structures and overall productivity which , if starting again, they would bin and rewrite.
BA does need to slim down, decide and focus on its priorities and become much more productive. This does not get away from the original proposition in this post,- which seems to have been trodden underfoot in some of the hysteria,- that it should not be having to buy every bit of flexibility it needs to keep its operation and service on the road at a high price. To be successful , its staff must WANT it to be successful and work together without demanding extra payments for anything out of the ordinary.
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Question for THS (or anyone else who can answer).
Interesting to see the managers/flight ratio. How does that work out in terms of managers per aircraft?
My only interest is so that I can relate it to the airline I work for (pure freight).
Ta.
Interesting to see the managers/flight ratio. How does that work out in terms of managers per aircraft?
My only interest is so that I can relate it to the airline I work for (pure freight).
Ta.
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Just to bring us back to the subject of the thread.
LH CC are being offered obscene amounts of money for turning up to work and having to work a little harder. One man down means that there is a little less time for a chat in the galley, or that a service has to be done a little quicker.
The point is that BA is scared to death of the CC unions and dare not tackle the issue for fear of a disastrous strike.
I have seen the original document and can confirm it is true. The dispatchers, loaders and everyone else could not believe it at first either.
Talk to BA flight crew - who are amongst the most productive in the world - and you will get tales of highly-strung cc who will refuse to do a legal duty because it is slightly outside the union agreement.
BA recently recruited 120 or so Midland cc. I spoke to one who said she had to remind her purser one day that the passengers actually had a choice of which airline they used.
Another said that she could not believe that BA shorthaul crew will not do an a/c turnround at main base.
Meanwhile, flight crew will, almost without exception, pull out all the stops to keep the operation running. Our manager, by contrast with the nonsense being offered to L/H crew, has sent us a message in which he thanks us in advance for our co-operation in keeping the show on the road.
To sum up the mood of some of my colleagues over the last few days, the feeling is that CC unions are gaily (pun intended) bleeding the company dry whilst revenues struggle.
We are fed up with some intransigent crew rigidly working to union agreements oblivious to the direction the company is heading.
The vast majority of crew are a pleasure to work with and do their jobs professionally. It is the actions of the militant minority who are dragging the whole lot of us down.
LH CC are being offered obscene amounts of money for turning up to work and having to work a little harder. One man down means that there is a little less time for a chat in the galley, or that a service has to be done a little quicker.
The point is that BA is scared to death of the CC unions and dare not tackle the issue for fear of a disastrous strike.
I have seen the original document and can confirm it is true. The dispatchers, loaders and everyone else could not believe it at first either.
Talk to BA flight crew - who are amongst the most productive in the world - and you will get tales of highly-strung cc who will refuse to do a legal duty because it is slightly outside the union agreement.
BA recently recruited 120 or so Midland cc. I spoke to one who said she had to remind her purser one day that the passengers actually had a choice of which airline they used.
Another said that she could not believe that BA shorthaul crew will not do an a/c turnround at main base.
Meanwhile, flight crew will, almost without exception, pull out all the stops to keep the operation running. Our manager, by contrast with the nonsense being offered to L/H crew, has sent us a message in which he thanks us in advance for our co-operation in keeping the show on the road.
To sum up the mood of some of my colleagues over the last few days, the feeling is that CC unions are gaily (pun intended) bleeding the company dry whilst revenues struggle.
We are fed up with some intransigent crew rigidly working to union agreements oblivious to the direction the company is heading.
The vast majority of crew are a pleasure to work with and do their jobs professionally. It is the actions of the militant minority who are dragging the whole lot of us down.
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The Management cannot be that bad as many of them after finishing with BA, either with a big cheque or large pension or both, go on to manage many other outfits. Britannia to name but one, and a recent look thru the Airlines of the UK brochure given with one of the airline mags showed about six ex BA managers in key positions. Even Easy have one of our departed Safety and Security managers, Tesco - Southport, Virgin trains, BUPA is chaired by Val Gooding also ex BA.
Mind it is a pity some of them didn't shine when they were with us.
Mind it is a pity some of them didn't shine when they were with us.
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Overstress:
Cabin crew unions enforce the rules. BA CC have to phone the union to get permission to extend duty, turnaround at base, whatever. And they often do this, to help the passengers.
As individuals they are often/mainly very dedicated and hard working. The occasional slip will happen in any company.
Companies like Ezy and Ryanair exploit their crews; BA does not. It is, as ever, a question of balance.
Cabin crew unions enforce the rules. BA CC have to phone the union to get permission to extend duty, turnaround at base, whatever. And they often do this, to help the passengers.
As individuals they are often/mainly very dedicated and hard working. The occasional slip will happen in any company.
Companies like Ezy and Ryanair exploit their crews; BA does not. It is, as ever, a question of balance.
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parcel
yes I agree entirely, but as I said before it is always the few rotten apples which spoil the whole barrel.
The main point is why BA mgmt feel they have to offer crews these inducements in times of upheaval, the flight crew tend to get on with it and we are surprised and pleased to get merely a letter of thanks.
yes I agree entirely, but as I said before it is always the few rotten apples which spoil the whole barrel.
The main point is why BA mgmt feel they have to offer crews these inducements in times of upheaval, the flight crew tend to get on with it and we are surprised and pleased to get merely a letter of thanks.
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Cabin crew would be amazed to get a letter of thanks!
We get bullied, harrassed, ripped off, conned, cheated & criticised... and that's just from our own departmental management.
Chicken & Egg I suspect, If the above wasn't the case, then we'd be more motivated to 'help out'
But it is, so I guess cabin crew will work to the letter of their agreements...
I do not accept any of the flak being thrown around here because management have made such a huge c*ck up, as opposed to the everyday little ones they continue to inflict upon us.
We get bullied, harrassed, ripped off, conned, cheated & criticised... and that's just from our own departmental management.
Chicken & Egg I suspect, If the above wasn't the case, then we'd be more motivated to 'help out'
But it is, so I guess cabin crew will work to the letter of their agreements...
I do not accept any of the flak being thrown around here because management have made such a huge c*ck up, as opposed to the everyday little ones they continue to inflict upon us.
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wishing:
I was fairly amazed as well. It came the week after the strike last summer where we operated to the limit of discretion to get the empty a/c home.
Thereby hangs a tale, and I won't labour the point but the purser when told we were taking the EMPTY (ie no work to do) ac to LHR from our UK diversion said
"well the crew aren't happy, we want to get off"
to which we replied you can do what you like, but we're taking the ac back.
Faces like cat's bottoms all round, but they came back.
If you want more tales, I've a bookful, but it would make me look spiteful.
The main point is, why does BA feel it has to offer bribes to CC?
I was fairly amazed as well. It came the week after the strike last summer where we operated to the limit of discretion to get the empty a/c home.
Thereby hangs a tale, and I won't labour the point but the purser when told we were taking the EMPTY (ie no work to do) ac to LHR from our UK diversion said
"well the crew aren't happy, we want to get off"
to which we replied you can do what you like, but we're taking the ac back.
Faces like cat's bottoms all round, but they came back.
If you want more tales, I've a bookful, but it would make me look spiteful.
The main point is, why does BA feel it has to offer bribes to CC?
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I've never worked in an industry which sees it's employees show such little respect or understanding of each other. Different departments seem to have so much hate for no reason.
To those who apparently treat anyone else like s**t, stop now you are a long way from being the superior race, those people you treat with contempt are human beings too.
To those who imagine that they are the only person who trained hard in life to get where they are stop kidding yourselves.
To those who think everybody's job is easier than their job wise up. Everyone has easy aspects and difficult aspects to their job.
All of you/us treat each other with respect and consideration and then maybe the days will seem shorter.
To the passengers, crew, management and anyone else to whom this may apply, you are not the centre of the universe, if you die tomorrow we will miss you but will carry on.
Finally, I do think that this website polarises opinion and maybe should not be treated as the way things really are but as things occasionally are.
To those who apparently treat anyone else like s**t, stop now you are a long way from being the superior race, those people you treat with contempt are human beings too.
To those who imagine that they are the only person who trained hard in life to get where they are stop kidding yourselves.
To those who think everybody's job is easier than their job wise up. Everyone has easy aspects and difficult aspects to their job.
All of you/us treat each other with respect and consideration and then maybe the days will seem shorter.
To the passengers, crew, management and anyone else to whom this may apply, you are not the centre of the universe, if you die tomorrow we will miss you but will carry on.
Finally, I do think that this website polarises opinion and maybe should not be treated as the way things really are but as things occasionally are.