Attention BA staff and shareholders
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Well anti-ice, your union can think what it likes. The "agreement" I posted was faxed to my area, as it was to many others within BA.
It is very difficult to keep things like that under wraps, because the green eyed God in us all rears its ugly head. Especially when many of us in the airline are working with less staff, trying to work smarter for the airline, and not getting a penny in "overtime" or extra payments because we have less staff than we used to.
I suspect you are rep for either BASSA or CC89.
I work in that wonderfull edifice Waterside, you know, the place thats "full of useless suits". I didnt ask for a stream running through the building, or for a Waitrose. Personally I would rather the stream was switched off, as it reminds me of the money which must be running down the drain daily in BA. Waitrose is actually useful, as it allows me to stay later at work, as I dont have to try and stop at a supermarket on the way home. In that respect it probably pays for itself.
We can't "prioritise" tasks and leave things for the next day, there are just too few people to cope with that. If someone is ill, we work harder, and longer, and get the job done, on the day. Its the way things have to be in the real world.
You work from Compass Centre, you know, the place with the nice view, restaurant, showers, sleeping area, grooming areas, extra strength condoms and lube in the loos, ..........you didnt ask for all that, but it was provided in case its usefull, and to enhance your experience at work.
We could both work just as efficiently from anonymous grey buildings, that choice is for the employer.
What astounds me is that the company has to offer inducements to get you to work when things might be "a little difficult". You say its a one week wonder, but the same was offered last year.....
I think you need to enter the real world. Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like. I earn 24k, before tax. I cant "commute" from a cheaper area of the country, as I have to be at work daily.
We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job.
I personally long for the day that BA gets some consultants in and does a bechmarking exercise. Compare comparable jobs throughout the airline with those of other full service airlines in the UK and Europe.
toodle pip
Swiss_tonni
......and in case you are wondering, no I dont access this forum at work, I do so from home, and then email a friend overseas, who posts it for me........protects my IP, and my job
It is very difficult to keep things like that under wraps, because the green eyed God in us all rears its ugly head. Especially when many of us in the airline are working with less staff, trying to work smarter for the airline, and not getting a penny in "overtime" or extra payments because we have less staff than we used to.
I suspect you are rep for either BASSA or CC89.
I work in that wonderfull edifice Waterside, you know, the place thats "full of useless suits". I didnt ask for a stream running through the building, or for a Waitrose. Personally I would rather the stream was switched off, as it reminds me of the money which must be running down the drain daily in BA. Waitrose is actually useful, as it allows me to stay later at work, as I dont have to try and stop at a supermarket on the way home. In that respect it probably pays for itself.
We can't "prioritise" tasks and leave things for the next day, there are just too few people to cope with that. If someone is ill, we work harder, and longer, and get the job done, on the day. Its the way things have to be in the real world.
You work from Compass Centre, you know, the place with the nice view, restaurant, showers, sleeping area, grooming areas, extra strength condoms and lube in the loos, ..........you didnt ask for all that, but it was provided in case its usefull, and to enhance your experience at work.
We could both work just as efficiently from anonymous grey buildings, that choice is for the employer.
What astounds me is that the company has to offer inducements to get you to work when things might be "a little difficult". You say its a one week wonder, but the same was offered last year.....
I think you need to enter the real world. Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like. I earn 24k, before tax. I cant "commute" from a cheaper area of the country, as I have to be at work daily.
We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job.
I personally long for the day that BA gets some consultants in and does a bechmarking exercise. Compare comparable jobs throughout the airline with those of other full service airlines in the UK and Europe.
toodle pip
Swiss_tonni
......and in case you are wondering, no I dont access this forum at work, I do so from home, and then email a friend overseas, who posts it for me........protects my IP, and my job
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Current starting salary for cabin crew just £9000 so I don't blame them for taking any money that's on offer...
Fine for you on your £24k pa and home every night.
Yes they do get allowances but have higher expenses not being able to cook at home every night.
To Turin - your gross has gone down £10k over two years, so what? BA is currently recruiting cabin crew if you think you could do the job and are happy to do so for £9k pa.
With all this venom and vitriol flying about, it is worth mentioning that there are 12,000 cabin crew and I'd be surprised if 0.1% get any payments. It's only for crews either disrupted or for working below agreed manning levels.
As the leave buy back scheme is oversubscribed, I suspect very few flights will go undermanned
forgot to say - what a wonderfully typical 'suit' idea to employ even more overpaid suits in the guise of consultants to 'benchmark' cabin crew.
All statistics available suggest the airline is topheavy in suits and not enough customer service staff...
Fine for you on your £24k pa and home every night.
Yes they do get allowances but have higher expenses not being able to cook at home every night.
To Turin - your gross has gone down £10k over two years, so what? BA is currently recruiting cabin crew if you think you could do the job and are happy to do so for £9k pa.
With all this venom and vitriol flying about, it is worth mentioning that there are 12,000 cabin crew and I'd be surprised if 0.1% get any payments. It's only for crews either disrupted or for working below agreed manning levels.
As the leave buy back scheme is oversubscribed, I suspect very few flights will go undermanned
forgot to say - what a wonderfully typical 'suit' idea to employ even more overpaid suits in the guise of consultants to 'benchmark' cabin crew.
All statistics available suggest the airline is topheavy in suits and not enough customer service staff...
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If you want to see B.As pay scales for the future look no further than BA Citiexpress, they operate MAN JFK on the 767 the crews that have been operating this flight are moving on to LHR or LGW so the crews that are replacing them are on citiexpress T&Cs that currantly pays £1.90 FDP per hour its a 3 day trip, how many LHR or LGW crews would work for that money and be motivated to give high customer service?
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I really can't believe what I'm reading! Those who are from management (in any company) and are posting such negative cr*p here, deserve swift redundancy!
If you look at any successful business out there, satff morale is kept high by incentives and/or recognition. At British Airways, since Lord King gave up control, the staff have had neither - indeed the wielding of big sticks, threats and cajoling have become ever more frequent!
British Airways has saved millions by deliberately overworking and overstressing us (2 check-in agents at Gatwick to check-in 1000 pax a few days ago!) The savings being made are far in excess of the odd sickie!
FWIW Cabin Crew salaries are £9000, Ground Staff (including shift pay) just over £7000 (I get £17000 'cos I've been around a long time - try paying your bloody mortgage with that and keep your kids nicely clothed!!!)
I am absolutely bloody gobsmacked that people out there have the effrontery to criticise this step in the right direction!!!
THATCHER'S SELFISHNESS LIVES ON!!!
If you look at any successful business out there, satff morale is kept high by incentives and/or recognition. At British Airways, since Lord King gave up control, the staff have had neither - indeed the wielding of big sticks, threats and cajoling have become ever more frequent!
British Airways has saved millions by deliberately overworking and overstressing us (2 check-in agents at Gatwick to check-in 1000 pax a few days ago!) The savings being made are far in excess of the odd sickie!
FWIW Cabin Crew salaries are £9000, Ground Staff (including shift pay) just over £7000 (I get £17000 'cos I've been around a long time - try paying your bloody mortgage with that and keep your kids nicely clothed!!!)
I am absolutely bloody gobsmacked that people out there have the effrontery to criticise this step in the right direction!!!
THATCHER'S SELFISHNESS LIVES ON!!!
WIWT
Going rate for the job then.
My point is that unskilled staff that go through a training program lasting 3 weeks are getting paid (in some cases) twice as much as a Licensed Aircraft Engineer who has gone through more training in a year than most CC see in 20 yrs service.
He will also be responsible for more lives and Dollars worth of equipment than CC can dish out Chicken or beef dinners!!
CC responsibility to their pax ends when they get off the aircraft. An engineers responsibility to his aircraft ends two years after the aircraft is destroyed or permenantly withdrawn from service.
Anti-ice
Just about sums you up then doesn't it?
Yes, and scores more are applying for their jobs! Must be something in it.
We have the LIVES of 3-400,000,000 pax on ours plus numerous toxic substances that would turn you a funny colour just thinking about. 
To Turin - your gross has gone down £10k over two years, so what? BA is currently recruiting cabin crew if you think you could do the job and are happy to do so for £9k pa.
My point is that unskilled staff that go through a training program lasting 3 weeks are getting paid (in some cases) twice as much as a Licensed Aircraft Engineer who has gone through more training in a year than most CC see in 20 yrs service.
He will also be responsible for more lives and Dollars worth of equipment than CC can dish out Chicken or beef dinners!!
CC responsibility to their pax ends when they get off the aircraft. An engineers responsibility to his aircraft ends two years after the aircraft is destroyed or permenantly withdrawn from service.
Anti-ice
as i don't see cabin crew sneering at engineers being a problem.
Its that good there right now, that dozens are leaving in droves - even people who have been online for 3 weeks.
The opposite normally - so perhaps your initial approach is being reciprocated in the same way.And i'm sure they wouldn't give a dam about your dirty hands as it comes with the territory!
Don't forget we've got the germs of 3-400 passengers on ours.
Don't forget we've got the germs of 3-400 passengers on ours.
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By way of comparison, Charter carrier payments are as follows (at least in my case)
1 Crew member short £10 per duty period, taxed
2 Crew members short £15 per duty period, taxed
1 Crew member short £10 per duty period, taxed
2 Crew members short £15 per duty period, taxed
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With over 30 years in the airline industry I read with interest the deal Mike Street has set up for BA Long Haul Cabin Crews.
If my memory serves me well, in the 70s and 80s BA operated a 3 class, 400 seat jumbo with only 13 crew, no bunks and just 4 rest seats !!
In BA short haul, in charge cabin crew regularly have to beg for the right crewing level for the trip they are on, only to be told, they have no crew to spare and they will just have to downgrade the number of club pax. (This fiasco frequently goes on after the SLF have checked in!)
Do I work for the same company??
If my memory serves me well, in the 70s and 80s BA operated a 3 class, 400 seat jumbo with only 13 crew, no bunks and just 4 rest seats !!
In BA short haul, in charge cabin crew regularly have to beg for the right crewing level for the trip they are on, only to be told, they have no crew to spare and they will just have to downgrade the number of club pax. (This fiasco frequently goes on after the SLF have checked in!)
Do I work for the same company??
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My point is that unskilled staff that go through a training program lasting 3 weeks are getting paid (in some cases) twice as much as a Licensed Aircraft Engineer
Unskilled? Perhaps in your view Customer Service Staff are unskilled because they don't handle a spanner & a length of duct tape... I wouldn't agree. I'd ask those passengers who's lives have been saved by either the medical intervention onboard, or an emergency evacuation. We all have different areas of experience & expertise, all of which is needed in the airline.
Three weeks training? Actually a six week formal training is the norm but a lifetime of experience. Being pedantic perhaps, but to someone who should be dealing in exacts, important hopefully.
Twice as much as a LAE? Who, where? Following the furore these payments seemed to have caused, I've had a look on the Airmech board and have learned that minimum £33k to around £40k for a LEA is the BA rate - I've done twenty years and don't earn (in total including all the variables) anywhere near that amount.
Now don't get me wrong - I do not resent what you are being paid, perhaps it should be more - I am happy to know that the aircraft I fly are properly maintained, as I am happy to know our flight crew, who are paid even more, are highly skilled - but I suspect that our passengers also value the knowledge that we can also possibly save their lives in the event of an emergency... along with serving them their chicken or beef.
All I was saying was that the UK Taxman is not so naive he will quite happily sit watching people being paid extra, lower taxed, flight allowances rather than regard those payments as standard fully taxed income.
For the unlucky crew member who is taken off his rostered trip, for having his future roster disrupted, for being away a different length of trip than expected, all with less than 90 minutes notice - this person will receive an amount equivalent to the meal allowances he or she woud have received as some compensation for having their life thrown into total disaray.
This is of course fully taxable at the normal rate.
Last edited by Wishing It Were True; 28th Mar 2004 at 11:27.
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I do not work for BA. What saddens me is how selfish and gullible we crew are. Management must be pi**ing themselves as they watch you all bicker and expose your petty jealousies. Why can't we all work together and respect each other's unique skills and contributions to the team effort. Just think what a formidable threat to Airline Management's intimidation we could be.
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Good to see you back swiss_tonni, your comments which have angered many initially are becoming quite laughable as you proceed on your little merry tour of dragging down those who are in real life - - your colleagues
"as it allows me to stay later at work, as I dont have to try and stop at a supermarket on the way home." . . .
Haha, and how many flights manage to get into megabusy LHR ontime,and find a stand , and provide crew transport???
We've often waited 45mins-1hr for transport after a delayed flight, and then still have to go shopping on the way home.
Its almost a daily occurence at times
-------
"If someone is ill, we work harder, and longer"
Well we have lost one/two or more crewmembers on every a/c type and have to do this on a daily basis, so this is now part of our everyday routine.
---------
"We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job."
That is a VERY derisory comment to our engineers - i bet they are more highly skilled/trained than you'll ever be.
And what are you trying to say about the multi-faceted/flexible role of the cabin crew?
Don't knock it m8 - the basics might be simple , but then again so is pushing a mouse around. loser .
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"I personally long for the day that BA gets some consultants in and does a bechmarking exercise. Compare comparable jobs throughout the airline with those of other full service airlines in the UK and Europe."
Don't we all, and its long overdue at your little base.
Planes will always need cabin crew / pilots / groundstaff etc.....
as for you , perhaps thats why you are ranting on here, and realise you are one of the next '2000' to go in the longawaited admin shake-up?
---------
"Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like."
Believe me we do; We are not quite as blinkered as you think.
The job really isn't worth doing anymore with the ludicrous proposals being fired at us from all directions from people who have no idea about customer expectations & what is possible....
Hence the current droves of cabin crew leaving.
---------
"Especially when many of us in the airline are working with less staff, trying to work smarter for the airline, and not getting a penny in "overtime" or extra payments because we have less staff than we used to."
......."work smarter" . . how many fengshui focus groups were needed to dream that one up??
About as many as the other popular management buzzword "cascade this information" which we hear far to often too
I think you mean working harder, well we are all doing that , if we hadn't then millions of pounds would not have been saved .
I'm sure it wasn't entirely down to your office
So get real, find out more about your airline - or if this is the way you are really feeling , perhaps you would be better off leaving, instead of trying to drag everybody else down in your malicious and deragatory little way.
"as it allows me to stay later at work, as I dont have to try and stop at a supermarket on the way home." . . .
Haha, and how many flights manage to get into megabusy LHR ontime,and find a stand , and provide crew transport???
We've often waited 45mins-1hr for transport after a delayed flight, and then still have to go shopping on the way home.
Its almost a daily occurence at times
-------
"If someone is ill, we work harder, and longer"
Well we have lost one/two or more crewmembers on every a/c type and have to do this on a daily basis, so this is now part of our everyday routine.
---------
"We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job."
That is a VERY derisory comment to our engineers - i bet they are more highly skilled/trained than you'll ever be.
And what are you trying to say about the multi-faceted/flexible role of the cabin crew?
Don't knock it m8 - the basics might be simple , but then again so is pushing a mouse around. loser .
--------
"I personally long for the day that BA gets some consultants in and does a bechmarking exercise. Compare comparable jobs throughout the airline with those of other full service airlines in the UK and Europe."
Don't we all, and its long overdue at your little base.
Planes will always need cabin crew / pilots / groundstaff etc.....
as for you , perhaps thats why you are ranting on here, and realise you are one of the next '2000' to go in the longawaited admin shake-up?
---------
"Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like."
Believe me we do; We are not quite as blinkered as you think.
The job really isn't worth doing anymore with the ludicrous proposals being fired at us from all directions from people who have no idea about customer expectations & what is possible....
Hence the current droves of cabin crew leaving.
---------
"Especially when many of us in the airline are working with less staff, trying to work smarter for the airline, and not getting a penny in "overtime" or extra payments because we have less staff than we used to."
......."work smarter" . . how many fengshui focus groups were needed to dream that one up??
About as many as the other popular management buzzword "cascade this information" which we hear far to often too
I think you mean working harder, well we are all doing that , if we hadn't then millions of pounds would not have been saved .
I'm sure it wasn't entirely down to your office
So get real, find out more about your airline - or if this is the way you are really feeling , perhaps you would be better off leaving, instead of trying to drag everybody else down in your malicious and deragatory little way.
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A 747-400 can legally be operated by just 10 cabin crew - one for each door.
We used to have 13 on a 747 Classic so that's not really the issue.
What is the issue is what level of customer service and product BA wants to provide (or can afford to provide) and still remain a "Full Service Airline"?
And it still doesn't alter the fact that compared to almost any other airline, we have far too many managers for the number of aircraft hulls and/or front line customer contact staff.
Until this simple fact is resolved, BA will struggle to survive.
We used to have 13 on a 747 Classic so that's not really the issue.
What is the issue is what level of customer service and product BA wants to provide (or can afford to provide) and still remain a "Full Service Airline"?
And it still doesn't alter the fact that compared to almost any other airline, we have far too many managers for the number of aircraft hulls and/or front line customer contact staff.
Until this simple fact is resolved, BA will struggle to survive.
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Excellent post, christn,
'Divide et impera'. Divide and rule.
Company management are to be congratulated.
A la Julius Caesar, British Airways has its' workforce biting each other's heads off.
I wouldn't be surprised if our fellow forum member swiss_tonni is in fact the very Board member other people here have criticised so much
'Divide et impera'. Divide and rule.
Company management are to be congratulated.
A la Julius Caesar, British Airways has its' workforce biting each other's heads off.
I wouldn't be surprised if our fellow forum member swiss_tonni is in fact the very Board member other people here have criticised so much
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Management to be congratulated?
I would have thought it would have been better concentrating on managing rather creating an atmosphere of despondancy and aggravation amongst the customer contact staff?
What is the end result of having everyone at everyones throats - is anyone going to go that extra mile for our customers when we are casting envious eyes or scowling at each other - I think not.
If BA wishes to remain a "Full Service Airline" then it has to accept it has to have motivated customer service staff.
I would have thought it would have been better concentrating on managing rather creating an atmosphere of despondancy and aggravation amongst the customer contact staff?
What is the end result of having everyone at everyones throats - is anyone going to go that extra mile for our customers when we are casting envious eyes or scowling at each other - I think not.
If BA wishes to remain a "Full Service Airline" then it has to accept it has to have motivated customer service staff.
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Can't help speaking up now..
I'm CC myself, and now I feel my patiance is getting VERY low.
swiss_tonni wrote:
You work from Compass Centre, you know, the place with the nice view, restaurant, showers, sleeping area, grooming areas, extra strength condoms and lube in the loos, ..........you didnt ask for all that, but it was provided in case its usefull, and to enhance your experience at work. I think you need to enter the real world. Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like. I earn 24k, before tax. I cant "commute" from a cheaper area of the country, as I have to be at work daily.
I would like to see those restaurants, sleeping areas, condoms you are talking about? ALSO.. if you are so bitter about CC, why don't you apply? we are hiring! or is that not enough for you?
We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job.
......and in case you are wondering, no I dont access this forum at work, I do so from home, and then email a friend overseas, who posts it for me........protects my IP, and my job
so, you are afraid of what BA would do to you if you would use your computer at work!! or is so.. that you are about to loose your job, so you've you've been a BITTER little queen? Coz Waterworld/Latteland should dry up.. We are WAY to top heavy with people like you.. and other Suit people.
Swedish wrote:
I am a member of the SLF which regulary travels BA longhaul, I also work for another airline. Ass I understand it:
1. BA are short of CC due to the season change - how can they recruit for such a short period. I also understand that the union contract insists on full leave allocation at this time when things would always be tight.
2. As a passenger I spend most of the night sectors waking up Cabin Crew or interupting galley meetings to get a simple drink.
I sugest BA Cabin Crew on LH get a life.
My opinion - and that is as a commercial customer - BA is a great company being runined by overpaid crew - remember who gave them the name Bad Attitude!!!! It is still deserved
who are you?, what airline are you working for? Pilot? SAS?.. as a fellow Swede, I'm ashamed about people like you.
Turin wrote:
It took a five year apprenticeship just to be allowed to work on aeroplanes and a further seven years gaining experience and studying to get my licences. For what? To get whinging CC look down their noses at me because I have a bit of oil under a nail?
I do not get paid overtime. It's time off in leiu hour for hour. My gross pay over the last two years has dropped almost £10,000.
I work in all weathers and get treated with contempt from CC.
My oh My, what a little BITTER person you are.. why are you not complaining about the Pilots, or WAY to many managers?? I have HUGE respect for you guys & the work you do... and you say contempt?? have you try to be nice and smile and be polite to us? You know, treat people the way you want to be treated.
I'm CC myself, and now I feel my patiance is getting VERY low.
swiss_tonni wrote:
You work from Compass Centre, you know, the place with the nice view, restaurant, showers, sleeping area, grooming areas, extra strength condoms and lube in the loos, ..........you didnt ask for all that, but it was provided in case its usefull, and to enhance your experience at work. I think you need to enter the real world. Have a look in the papers and see what real jobs pay, and what the working conditions and hours are like. I earn 24k, before tax. I cant "commute" from a cheaper area of the country, as I have to be at work daily.
I would like to see those restaurants, sleeping areas, condoms you are talking about? ALSO.. if you are so bitter about CC, why don't you apply? we are hiring! or is that not enough for you?
We are all replaceable. And yes I do think an engineer could do your job.
......and in case you are wondering, no I dont access this forum at work, I do so from home, and then email a friend overseas, who posts it for me........protects my IP, and my job
so, you are afraid of what BA would do to you if you would use your computer at work!! or is so.. that you are about to loose your job, so you've you've been a BITTER little queen? Coz Waterworld/Latteland should dry up.. We are WAY to top heavy with people like you.. and other Suit people.
Swedish wrote:
I am a member of the SLF which regulary travels BA longhaul, I also work for another airline. Ass I understand it:
1. BA are short of CC due to the season change - how can they recruit for such a short period. I also understand that the union contract insists on full leave allocation at this time when things would always be tight.
2. As a passenger I spend most of the night sectors waking up Cabin Crew or interupting galley meetings to get a simple drink.
I sugest BA Cabin Crew on LH get a life.
My opinion - and that is as a commercial customer - BA is a great company being runined by overpaid crew - remember who gave them the name Bad Attitude!!!! It is still deserved
who are you?, what airline are you working for? Pilot? SAS?.. as a fellow Swede, I'm ashamed about people like you.
Turin wrote:
It took a five year apprenticeship just to be allowed to work on aeroplanes and a further seven years gaining experience and studying to get my licences. For what? To get whinging CC look down their noses at me because I have a bit of oil under a nail?
I do not get paid overtime. It's time off in leiu hour for hour. My gross pay over the last two years has dropped almost £10,000.
I work in all weathers and get treated with contempt from CC.
My oh My, what a little BITTER person you are.. why are you not complaining about the Pilots, or WAY to many managers?? I have HUGE respect for you guys & the work you do... and you say contempt?? have you try to be nice and smile and be polite to us? You know, treat people the way you want to be treated.
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Consider this:
if you're an engineer/maintenance.. all the invisible people behind the scenes that allow the aircraft to get up and down again safely regardless of who is on board or at the controls... Whilst safety might not be a prime selling point in air transport some of us do research it, find out who contracts what to whom and who has internal facilities to carry out works, and what their record is before we fly with you.
It might be unfair, but to Joe public, the invisible work; everything that you people do in ops/maintenance etc.. i.e.whether it's sheltering under the wing whilst freezing rain is driven in by the wind to check the a/c or any other of the innumerable jobs involved with the a/c and loading it/operating it etc. so that it can get people from A to B safely, efficiently and quickly, with all of their belongings, however awkward they are, is no more than expected..never mind underappreciated.
I understand the guidelines have changed recently so flightdeck crew have to have more customer contact, but in the rest of ops. do you? Whether you like it or not, the front of house staff, CC and check in etc are the ones who encourage people to travel with the same airline AGAIN. They are the ones who convince the traveller that they've had service and value for money. Who says it's fair. no one.. but life isn't fair. Conversely, poor CC activley discourage repeat customers. a customer is easier to keep than recruit.
The only thing the airline exists for is to enable people to travel thats how it can make money. Management exists to collate all of this and guide you, not necessarily control it & you. to enable you all to work together, smoothly and efficiently, and to ensure employees, contractors and customers are content.
Wouldn't it be ideal if you all took home the same as one of the board members.. . it is difficult to manage, but do you really think management would jeopardise their own futures, their offices & perks by falling out with staff so early in this fragile industry recovery? No company actively seeks disgruntled employees, staff absenteeism is a corporate killer, but so is repetetive induction and training It's far better to retain&retrain than recruit.
What you can't do is collectively jeopardise the airline by comparing your pay to other groups and asking for what they have. Where is it going to come from? if you can identify that, then you can ask for it. Ask your union to put it forward. ok you have a good q3 profit. it is the first time in a while and you BA still has high gearing. debt repayments are a substantial cost to be factored into pay agreements that will run for some time.
IMHO, you all do a great job. thats why I have no concerns travelling BA. I know the plane's not going to fall from the sky with metal fatigue, be driven into a mountain by an untrained knackered pilot and that the bags I gave to the smiling staff in england will pass through several sets of hands before arriving safely for me at JFK. All of this goes on whilst I sit comfortably waited on hand and foot by pleasant staff serving chicken or beef, either of which is pretty good but were probabably both approved by a manager in a lounge 36k feet below and 2k miles east in england. Its not an easy job that any of you have but you do it really well. What's the difference between any of you? public visibility, that's all
In the fairly vacuous society in which we live...in case you don't hear it too often.. thanks.
if you're an engineer/maintenance.. all the invisible people behind the scenes that allow the aircraft to get up and down again safely regardless of who is on board or at the controls... Whilst safety might not be a prime selling point in air transport some of us do research it, find out who contracts what to whom and who has internal facilities to carry out works, and what their record is before we fly with you.
It might be unfair, but to Joe public, the invisible work; everything that you people do in ops/maintenance etc.. i.e.whether it's sheltering under the wing whilst freezing rain is driven in by the wind to check the a/c or any other of the innumerable jobs involved with the a/c and loading it/operating it etc. so that it can get people from A to B safely, efficiently and quickly, with all of their belongings, however awkward they are, is no more than expected..never mind underappreciated.
I understand the guidelines have changed recently so flightdeck crew have to have more customer contact, but in the rest of ops. do you? Whether you like it or not, the front of house staff, CC and check in etc are the ones who encourage people to travel with the same airline AGAIN. They are the ones who convince the traveller that they've had service and value for money. Who says it's fair. no one.. but life isn't fair. Conversely, poor CC activley discourage repeat customers. a customer is easier to keep than recruit.
The only thing the airline exists for is to enable people to travel thats how it can make money. Management exists to collate all of this and guide you, not necessarily control it & you. to enable you all to work together, smoothly and efficiently, and to ensure employees, contractors and customers are content.
Wouldn't it be ideal if you all took home the same as one of the board members..
. it is difficult to manage, but do you really think management would jeopardise their own futures, their offices & perks by falling out with staff so early in this fragile industry recovery? No company actively seeks disgruntled employees, staff absenteeism is a corporate killer, but so is repetetive induction and training It's far better to retain&retrain than recruit. What you can't do is collectively jeopardise the airline by comparing your pay to other groups and asking for what they have. Where is it going to come from? if you can identify that, then you can ask for it. Ask your union to put it forward. ok you have a good q3 profit. it is the first time in a while and you BA still has high gearing. debt repayments are a substantial cost to be factored into pay agreements that will run for some time.
IMHO, you all do a great job. thats why I have no concerns travelling BA. I know the plane's not going to fall from the sky with metal fatigue, be driven into a mountain by an untrained knackered pilot and that the bags I gave to the smiling staff in england will pass through several sets of hands before arriving safely for me at JFK. All of this goes on whilst I sit comfortably waited on hand and foot by pleasant staff serving chicken or beef, either of which is pretty good but were probabably both approved by a manager in a lounge 36k feet below and 2k miles east in england. Its not an easy job that any of you have but you do it really well. What's the difference between any of you? public visibility, that's all
In the fairly vacuous society in which we live...in case you don't hear it too often.. thanks.
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Same sh*t – different (BA) day.
NM163 -,
Really hit the spot with that one. I loved the last line “in case you don’t hear it too often, Thanks”
Wait whilst I get another tissue, sob sob. That’s where I went wrong! I obviously forgot to say “thanks” last year when I spent 3 days waiting in a f*****g tent for a flight from T4, due to the swipe card issue.
Christn –
A good post with sensible points – problem is you are wasting your time. Reading this entire thread is just like reading the NATS thread on their recent pay issue. You, like our well meaning souls within NATS, have to accept that you are seeing the “business side” of human nature – its all “me me me me me”. Doesn’t matter what the rights and wrongs of the issues are – when money is concerned it’s everybody for themselves, whether they choose to declare or deny it on this forum or not. All this talk about Company loyalty, and “lets all work together” crap is wasted on a workforce that can’t see past the next pay packet. It’s been the same sh*t at BA for as long as I care to remember – only the faces have changed.
As a BA shareholder from the initial share issue, and now, through choice, ex-BA SLF, I am appalled at the continuous, apparent wastefulness and unnecessary financial extravagance of this Company, combined with apathetic Staff and pathetic Management. I have given up wondering whether my investment or the Company is doing well – I only keep the shares to hand on to my kids for posterity. “You know, son, this used to be a good Airline once, but…”.
I know many people who work for BA across the board, and not one of them has a good word to say for it, except that they get Staff Travel. They all have stories about how fed up they are, how the Management is crap, who’s on the fiddle, who’s running a business whilst they’re on the sick, who gets extra payments for this, that and everything else, etc etc. There’s never anything positive – why do you stay? Money, that’s why.
I do believe that the pilots earn their cash – it is a skilled profession. I don’t believe for one minute that CSDs or any other CC are worth anything remotely like a pilot’s wage, or £67k, a figure being bandied about on the other BA pay thread. There are just as many people outside of BA who have been taught to save a life, sell you a bottle of perfume, or serve you a meal, but they don’t get £67k. I’d rather see nurses get £67k than CC – that’s real value for money.
BA went down the toilet when it was privatised. The bane of privatisation – the selfish element - became paramount in every facet of the Company and its Staff. The Staff started arguing the day the initial share price was announced (it’s too much!), and how many shares the Staff would receive (not enough!), and it has snowballed since then.
To all you BA Staff out there – it is truly sad that things have degenerated to today’s levels, but your past reputation as “The World’s Favourite Airline” is nothing more than a memory. Be thankful that, for now, you have a job to go to. If push comes to shove, you will never save yourselves by combined effort – you are all too departmentally self-centred for that. It’ll be “All for One, and, er…..All for One!”
Remember though, if the Company finally goes tits up, the Cabin Crew (preference will be given to those with clean nails!) will be in a stronger position for the vacancies at McDonald’s – “is that the McBeefburger or the McChicken Sandwich, sir?” And don’t forget to smile – you’ll be getting £4.80 per hour!
NM163 -,
Really hit the spot with that one. I loved the last line “in case you don’t hear it too often, Thanks”
Wait whilst I get another tissue, sob sob. That’s where I went wrong! I obviously forgot to say “thanks” last year when I spent 3 days waiting in a f*****g tent for a flight from T4, due to the swipe card issue.
Christn –
A good post with sensible points – problem is you are wasting your time. Reading this entire thread is just like reading the NATS thread on their recent pay issue. You, like our well meaning souls within NATS, have to accept that you are seeing the “business side” of human nature – its all “me me me me me”. Doesn’t matter what the rights and wrongs of the issues are – when money is concerned it’s everybody for themselves, whether they choose to declare or deny it on this forum or not. All this talk about Company loyalty, and “lets all work together” crap is wasted on a workforce that can’t see past the next pay packet. It’s been the same sh*t at BA for as long as I care to remember – only the faces have changed.
As a BA shareholder from the initial share issue, and now, through choice, ex-BA SLF, I am appalled at the continuous, apparent wastefulness and unnecessary financial extravagance of this Company, combined with apathetic Staff and pathetic Management. I have given up wondering whether my investment or the Company is doing well – I only keep the shares to hand on to my kids for posterity. “You know, son, this used to be a good Airline once, but…”.
I know many people who work for BA across the board, and not one of them has a good word to say for it, except that they get Staff Travel. They all have stories about how fed up they are, how the Management is crap, who’s on the fiddle, who’s running a business whilst they’re on the sick, who gets extra payments for this, that and everything else, etc etc. There’s never anything positive – why do you stay? Money, that’s why.
I do believe that the pilots earn their cash – it is a skilled profession. I don’t believe for one minute that CSDs or any other CC are worth anything remotely like a pilot’s wage, or £67k, a figure being bandied about on the other BA pay thread. There are just as many people outside of BA who have been taught to save a life, sell you a bottle of perfume, or serve you a meal, but they don’t get £67k. I’d rather see nurses get £67k than CC – that’s real value for money.
BA went down the toilet when it was privatised. The bane of privatisation – the selfish element - became paramount in every facet of the Company and its Staff. The Staff started arguing the day the initial share price was announced (it’s too much!), and how many shares the Staff would receive (not enough!), and it has snowballed since then.
To all you BA Staff out there – it is truly sad that things have degenerated to today’s levels, but your past reputation as “The World’s Favourite Airline” is nothing more than a memory. Be thankful that, for now, you have a job to go to. If push comes to shove, you will never save yourselves by combined effort – you are all too departmentally self-centred for that. It’ll be “All for One, and, er…..All for One!”
Remember though, if the Company finally goes tits up, the Cabin Crew (preference will be given to those with clean nails!) will be in a stronger position for the vacancies at McDonald’s – “is that the McBeefburger or the McChicken Sandwich, sir?” And don’t forget to smile – you’ll be getting £4.80 per hour!
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Absolutely right for the question to be raised. Absolutely wrong the defensive, slagging off everyone else in many replies.
Facts are: Some Cabin Crew are world class/ excellent and deliver superb service and persuade passnegers to fly BA again and again Some are dreadful and persuade passengers never to fly BA again.
Some of the management/Waterside are excellent, some are awful. Bob did his best to get rid of anyone believed to be " airline people" and destroyed the demography of the company ( ie anyone over 45 was dead).
The separation of the airlines operational people ( to Compass centre) . the Management, marketing, sales etc people ( to Waterside) and the Engineers ( stayed where they were at Hatton Cross to be increasingly surrounded by the BAAs non airline developments) was a disaster and has produced the sort of misguided, misinformed antagonisms and misunderstandings seen in these exchanges.
To survive, BA people must learn,- and quickly,- to like each other and get along , but even more quickly to love their customers and put them first. If they dont there is only one possible outcome:P45s all round.
Facts are: Some Cabin Crew are world class/ excellent and deliver superb service and persuade passnegers to fly BA again and again Some are dreadful and persuade passengers never to fly BA again.
Some of the management/Waterside are excellent, some are awful. Bob did his best to get rid of anyone believed to be " airline people" and destroyed the demography of the company ( ie anyone over 45 was dead).
The separation of the airlines operational people ( to Compass centre) . the Management, marketing, sales etc people ( to Waterside) and the Engineers ( stayed where they were at Hatton Cross to be increasingly surrounded by the BAAs non airline developments) was a disaster and has produced the sort of misguided, misinformed antagonisms and misunderstandings seen in these exchanges.
To survive, BA people must learn,- and quickly,- to like each other and get along , but even more quickly to love their customers and put them first. If they dont there is only one possible outcome:P45s all round.
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I do believe that the pilots earn their cash – it is a skilled profession. I don’t believe for one minute that CSDs or any other CC are worth anything remotely like a pilot’s wage, or £67k, a figure being bandied about on the other BA pay thread. There are just as many people outside of BA who have been taught to save a life, sell you a bottle of perfume, or serve you a meal, but they don’t get £67k. I’d rather see nurses get £67k than CC – that’s real value for money.
If you truly believe that cabin crew earn anything like this amount, you need your head examined.
My takehome as a purser after 20 years is approximately one third of the amount you quote. And for new entrants it is now definitely a lot worse - £4.80 per hour would be a wage increase.
It's a pity that a reasoned point of view was spoiled by malicious falsehoods.
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Wishing It Were True
I tend to agree with you and most of the Engineering staff know the score,Shorthaul and the majority of Longhaul Cabin Crew don't make a fortune - The CSDs are paid more than they are worth but you can read my post about that on the pensions thread.
What has got my backup and most of my colleagues is you are now ( By BA ) included in the " pampered ones " by way of the payments for flying with a member short -- that's what this thread is really all about - payments for helping the company out when they are unable to meet a union negotiated agreement.
The same applies to the GSS payment of £150 for not going sick " IF ITS TRUE ", that is equally ludicrous.
I tend to agree with you and most of the Engineering staff know the score,Shorthaul and the majority of Longhaul Cabin Crew don't make a fortune - The CSDs are paid more than they are worth but you can read my post about that on the pensions thread.
What has got my backup and most of my colleagues is you are now ( By BA ) included in the " pampered ones " by way of the payments for flying with a member short -- that's what this thread is really all about - payments for helping the company out when they are unable to meet a union negotiated agreement.
The same applies to the GSS payment of £150 for not going sick " IF ITS TRUE ", that is equally ludicrous.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Connex..
where do you get your numbers from???
I'm on the new contract, and a basic pay of £10,800/year.
And as it was said before me £4,80/hr would be a payrise.
so before you start slagging CC off..
Get you f***king numbers right.
where do you get your numbers from???
I'm on the new contract, and a basic pay of £10,800/year.
And as it was said before me £4,80/hr would be a payrise.
so before you start slagging CC off..
Get you f***king numbers right.