UK Police helicopter budget cuts
To pay or not to pay that is the question....
Make up your mind Berty, either they paid for THEIR rooms or they didn't.
I said they paid for their rooms and you say they paid for there [sic] rooms..... not quite sure how I can retract or apologise for getting it right!
So they paid for the rooms they occupied right?
Yes it might have been considerably cheaper than Bilbao but they paid.... the evidence is pretty conclusive.... Berty told me....
And while this was no Spanish waiter* giving an overview it might have been better from the horses mouth - there are confused members of industry out there and I am sure I do not know what to tell them. And as we know police persons do not talk to the press [openly]!
INAER*
I said they paid for their rooms and you say they paid for there [sic] rooms..... not quite sure how I can retract or apologise for getting it right!
So they paid for the rooms they occupied right?
Yes it might have been considerably cheaper than Bilbao but they paid.... the evidence is pretty conclusive.... Berty told me....
And while this was no Spanish waiter* giving an overview it might have been better from the horses mouth - there are confused members of industry out there and I am sure I do not know what to tell them. And as we know police persons do not talk to the press [openly]!
INAER*
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Mr Faulty, Mr Faulty
Oh yeah, right - INAER are well placed to provide incisive thought into NPAS. At least Manuel would have been more amusing.
Yes you are WRONG, please don't twist the truth and make something out of nothing. The point is that this was a User Working Group, not a NPAS planning meeting (as stated in the May edition). Forces have always paid for UWGs. EXCEPT this one was the first joint UWG - bringing together the 135 and 902 communities - and held at Ryton to save money. My understanding is that forces paid about 1/3 of the cost of previous events.
So you should be hailing this as something positive, not negative
PAvNews increasingly seems not to reflect the reality of the situation, and the opinion of the overwhelming majority of people currently involved in providing air support. It should. We need it to.
Yes you are WRONG, please don't twist the truth and make something out of nothing. The point is that this was a User Working Group, not a NPAS planning meeting (as stated in the May edition). Forces have always paid for UWGs. EXCEPT this one was the first joint UWG - bringing together the 135 and 902 communities - and held at Ryton to save money. My understanding is that forces paid about 1/3 of the cost of previous events.
So you should be hailing this as something positive, not negative
PAvNews increasingly seems not to reflect the reality of the situation, and the opinion of the overwhelming majority of people currently involved in providing air support. It should. We need it to.
Well done Berty, finger on the pulse then. So who were you before five posts ago?
A confident old hand?
Perhaps someone already outed you as someone who talks to themselves yet cannot work out the yawning difference between paid and paid. If PAvCon can be free so can NPAS briefings that finally bring together the two inexplicable groups of 135 and 902, it isn't rocket science. Yes its positive but unfortunately I never got that well overdue bit of brilliant news dripped to me.... let alone supplied as a nice press release from those oh so secretive NPAS chaps. If they are so sensitive that stuff in the guessing world might stray they could do something about it now.... after all it is public money and the police are accountable despite their illusions that they are not working under that rule ...... perhaps you had better be my correspondent in future to ensure I do get it right.
Bear Traps all round..... Do mind the bear traps.
Reality
INAER as in Staverton.
I am sure there are no Manuel's there just now.
A confident old hand?
Perhaps someone already outed you as someone who talks to themselves yet cannot work out the yawning difference between paid and paid. If PAvCon can be free so can NPAS briefings that finally bring together the two inexplicable groups of 135 and 902, it isn't rocket science. Yes its positive but unfortunately I never got that well overdue bit of brilliant news dripped to me.... let alone supplied as a nice press release from those oh so secretive NPAS chaps. If they are so sensitive that stuff in the guessing world might stray they could do something about it now.... after all it is public money and the police are accountable despite their illusions that they are not working under that rule ...... perhaps you had better be my correspondent in future to ensure I do get it right.
Bear Traps all round..... Do mind the bear traps.
Reality
INAER as in Staverton.
I am sure there are no Manuel's there just now.
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Que?
I am aware of the Staverton link, doesn't change much. Exit stage left for me. I won't be drawn any further into this. Sound advice, too many Tigerfish traps.
So adios amigo. But I will always think of you as my own little (not that little) Manuel.
"I know nothing, noootthhhhing"
So adios amigo. But I will always think of you as my own little (not that little) Manuel.
"I know nothing, noootthhhhing"
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i wouldnt say i a master of air support unit but from a person outside of that field i have pretty good knowledge through looking it up some might call me sad i just look at it like my hobbie and it what i enjoy will always be a fan of air support unit always have and always will just some people are clueless and think fook off police helicopter it 3am you woke me up when soon when all the cuts have happened it will be when you need the helicopter it never fooking here you can picture them words from the idiots already but that is uk im sorry to say if it a waste of money to they need it themselves and to move bases around passed the 15 or 20 min window is silly aswell as you still have ASU but at much later time it will seem pointless and will be alot of AREA SEARCHED NO TRACE so then bean counters will get it in there head to scrape helicopter all together 
some people has mentioned tasks like check a scene of rtc will be ok for longer transit times check noone thrown from the vehicle however even that might be dodgy if they banged there head against windscreen and through concussion started to walk off it has happened and the helicopter managed to find them however in 20mins people even injured ones can walk fair distance suspects and vehicle no chance and make chance of fail to stops as even now before helicopter on scene they get lost and no further sightings im sure people will back me up on that statement i wanna be police air observer one day and will try and live my dream but by then who knows where ASU if atall will be there let me say this ASU was at the all time best before the cuts and it now seems to of done it job and will be a slow death people moan about what helicopters used for and is it worth them for the cost of the crime well let say somebody stills a mars bar 40 odd pence and make off from officers however end up on the roof yes for 40 odd pence however we all remember the met police officer who fell through the roof and died that could of been for 40 odd pence but the ASU can now attend and put the containment in OFFICER SAFETY they are HUMANS who have lives aswell.
at the end of the day companys have budgets because they can meet budgets if they plan better to meet targets a supermarket has sales v waste as they can be met and companys have staff costs as they know it can be met YOU CANT BUDGET POLICE AS YOU CANT BUDGET CRIME that the bottom line you cant say well sunday the helicopter goes up once then monday the helicopter goes up twice CRIMS dont work shifts and all i can say is the first fail to stop ASU 20mins away the 1st public death through vehicle failing to stop through the cuts and then gets away IPCC will have a field day............ rant over ASU down but carry on fighting
thanks i dont know everything but do give it a try
some people has mentioned tasks like check a scene of rtc will be ok for longer transit times check noone thrown from the vehicle however even that might be dodgy if they banged there head against windscreen and through concussion started to walk off it has happened and the helicopter managed to find them however in 20mins people even injured ones can walk fair distance suspects and vehicle no chance and make chance of fail to stops as even now before helicopter on scene they get lost and no further sightings im sure people will back me up on that statement i wanna be police air observer one day and will try and live my dream but by then who knows where ASU if atall will be there let me say this ASU was at the all time best before the cuts and it now seems to of done it job and will be a slow death people moan about what helicopters used for and is it worth them for the cost of the crime well let say somebody stills a mars bar 40 odd pence and make off from officers however end up on the roof yes for 40 odd pence however we all remember the met police officer who fell through the roof and died that could of been for 40 odd pence but the ASU can now attend and put the containment in OFFICER SAFETY they are HUMANS who have lives aswell.at the end of the day companys have budgets because they can meet budgets if they plan better to meet targets a supermarket has sales v waste as they can be met and companys have staff costs as they know it can be met YOU CANT BUDGET POLICE AS YOU CANT BUDGET CRIME that the bottom line you cant say well sunday the helicopter goes up once then monday the helicopter goes up twice CRIMS dont work shifts and all i can say is the first fail to stop ASU 20mins away the 1st public death through vehicle failing to stop through the cuts and then gets away IPCC will have a field day............ rant over ASU down but carry on fighting
thanks i dont know everything but do give it a try
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one more thing............
just one more comment missed out people say what point of sending helicopter if they get away with it was it really worth it well................. we know justice system is crap but have to live with it so it better to raise and put them in front of the courts then never know....... we can always turn round and say to members of public and firearm officers sorry cant attend today they might get away with it!!!!!!
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Such words of support, if they reflect the general feeling "out there",
are good to hear - perhaps there is hope yet
( Spelling and grammar checkers might make for easier reading though
)
are good to hear - perhaps there is hope yet
( Spelling and grammar checkers might make for easier reading though
)
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Re Chiltern and "inappropriate" use of helicopter, Chalgrove is a village right next to RAF Benson and "Bolkow" might care to note that it was NOT a 2am flight.
Last edited by Eurocopper; 2nd Jun 2011 at 20:46. Reason: spelling
Whitehead,
You are not the only one frustrated.
I guess that the NPAS team is keeping the lid so well down on the subject that it is very difficult to keep the thread alive on a day-to-day basis. They are either being very successful or getting the same effect purely by accident.......
BUT.... and this is perhaps important... the little bits of real information that do leak out are rattling the NPAS cage from time to time and from a recent post I am pretty sure that NPAS are very much on this thread and watching.
You are not the only one frustrated.
I guess that the NPAS team is keeping the lid so well down on the subject that it is very difficult to keep the thread alive on a day-to-day basis. They are either being very successful or getting the same effect purely by accident.......
BUT.... and this is perhaps important... the little bits of real information that do leak out are rattling the NPAS cage from time to time and from a recent post I am pretty sure that NPAS are very much on this thread and watching.
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One advantage of the whole process taking much longer than the initial announcement indicated, is that 'regions' are getting time to get used to working within the obvious limitations of the plan. There is more time to present statistical feedback up 'the chain' and to gradually change methods of working, rather than the shock of it happening on one date. Some units have a fixed end date, some are gradually running down and those that are staying are evolving to meet future requirements.
I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.
We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.
I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.
We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
This thread has really lost its bite!...Lets get it back then!
Art of flight;
Go on then...enlighten us !
For starters, how about telling us how BTP feel about being told to provide 5 staff to operate the flight desk. I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.
Tell us how the station commanders of the various RAF stations reacted to being told about the Police ASU that was going to operate from their base. Again, I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.
With 10 months to go, I think you get my drift !
I'd say there's a lot happening,
For starters, how about telling us how BTP feel about being told to provide 5 staff to operate the flight desk. I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.
Tell us how the station commanders of the various RAF stations reacted to being told about the Police ASU that was going to operate from their base. Again, I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.
With 10 months to go, I think you get my drift !
One advantage of the whole process taking much longer than the initial announcement indicated, is that 'regions' are getting time to get used to working within the obvious limitations of the plan.
Really, when will that be happening?
There is more time to present statistical feedback up 'the chain' and to gradually change methods of working, rather than the shock of it happening on one date. Some units have a fixed end date, some are gradually running down and those that are staying are evolving to meet future requirements.
As above
I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.
No we're not, no decisions, no info and no Idea of dates..
We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.
Yes we do, thats why you have updates.
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.
What makes you think other ASU's know whats going on, certainly the ones near us are no wiser than the rest of us, plus you can actually phone the guys. If you don't work at an ASU why should you visit one?
These are just some of the questions we'd like to be answered....
We have x Pilots on our Unit, how many will lose their jobs?
Will we go to 20 hours or stay on 24 hours?
Will we be 3 plus a floater or 4 plus a floater?
Will the floater be given another type rating to cover the different A/C types?
How many Observers will we lose?
How many Observers will be floaters?
How many will be trained on the other A/C types?
Do you work for NPAS?
Really, when will that be happening?
There is more time to present statistical feedback up 'the chain' and to gradually change methods of working, rather than the shock of it happening on one date. Some units have a fixed end date, some are gradually running down and those that are staying are evolving to meet future requirements.
As above
I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.
No we're not, no decisions, no info and no Idea of dates..
We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.
Yes we do, thats why you have updates.
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.
What makes you think other ASU's know whats going on, certainly the ones near us are no wiser than the rest of us, plus you can actually phone the guys. If you don't work at an ASU why should you visit one?
These are just some of the questions we'd like to be answered....
We have x Pilots on our Unit, how many will lose their jobs?
Will we go to 20 hours or stay on 24 hours?
Will we be 3 plus a floater or 4 plus a floater?
Will the floater be given another type rating to cover the different A/C types?
How many Observers will we lose?
How many Observers will be floaters?
How many will be trained on the other A/C types?
Do you work for NPAS?
Art of Flight
I'm surprised at you, you should know better than to bring reasonable, reasoned discussion here. People want to have a good old rant and shout and the last thing they need is someone like you being all decent, equitable and fair in your analysis.
Personally, I've given up shouting and think you're spot on.
I'm surprised at you, you should know better than to bring reasonable, reasoned discussion here. People want to have a good old rant and shout and the last thing they need is someone like you being all decent, equitable and fair in your analysis.
Personally, I've given up shouting and think you're spot on.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
AoF/JAFO;
If only you had told NPAS this before the initial big announcement day! Which camp do the 'implimentation team' fall into, those that work at an ASU or those that don't?
I don't recall many visits to any units by anyone in reference to the national plan before it was announced....do you?
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.
I don't recall many visits to any units by anyone in reference to the national plan before it was announced....do you?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
So,
Which units aren't closing down iaw the initial plan?
Which units are closing down that weren't in the initial plan?
Which units are moving that wasn't in the initial plan?
Which units aren't moving iaw the initial plan?
Do we really need to re-read the first posts after the announcement to find out that the same questions need answering?
Which units aren't closing down iaw the initial plan?
Which units are closing down that weren't in the initial plan?
Which units are moving that wasn't in the initial plan?
Which units aren't moving iaw the initial plan?
Do we really need to re-read the first posts after the announcement to find out that the same questions need answering?
As I recall it this NPAS 'thing' was conceived at a time when the Government in command were in denial that there was a problem to be solved.... since then a new government has come in and yes we are in a state. However as stated NPAS predated that so either someone outside Government [ACPO?] created this plan without reference to government policy pre-May 2010 or the original plan was drastically modified for the October 2010 launch.
I would dispute the joys of any 'Central Control' anyway. C&C as it evolved from a man who knew what he was doing at the end of a local telephone to a system that employed 17-years old 'know nots' miles from the action has clearly shown that as an idea it is flawed whether you have it at street duty level or in aviation.
Its main flaw is that the 'know nots' need a very steep learning curve to get over just the location let alone what is required of the resource. And the person-power it 'saves' is a total illusion [been there seen it got the T shirt] which ends up with massive 21st century control rooms with staff doubled or trebbled because they cannot sit in front of a PC for more that 2 hours at a stint......
Its the history of recent policing really and aviation is just getting it from people who never stayed at the sharp wend long enough to learn the ropes....
Yea I know I am an old git but my observations on this cannot all be wrong because of that!
I would dispute the joys of any 'Central Control' anyway. C&C as it evolved from a man who knew what he was doing at the end of a local telephone to a system that employed 17-years old 'know nots' miles from the action has clearly shown that as an idea it is flawed whether you have it at street duty level or in aviation.
Its main flaw is that the 'know nots' need a very steep learning curve to get over just the location let alone what is required of the resource. And the person-power it 'saves' is a total illusion [been there seen it got the T shirt] which ends up with massive 21st century control rooms with staff doubled or trebbled because they cannot sit in front of a PC for more that 2 hours at a stint......
Its the history of recent policing really and aviation is just getting it from people who never stayed at the sharp wend long enough to learn the ropes....
Yea I know I am an old git but my observations on this cannot all be wrong because of that!
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Well, thats got it going again!
There are those on here who seem to think they or I, may have influence beyond 'our' pay grade and role, I'm certainly under no such illusion. The national plan is what it is and my opinion of its present format will be kept to myself. I do however continue to try to make sure that what I can influence I do. I regularly cover up to 5 counties with one aircraft, so you might agree (or not) that I and my colleagues in east anglia have been to the future and we're learning lessons from it. Yes, I'd like to see a system where we have an aircraft in every county, but I've been told we're broke and the plan is going ahead, I can't influence that. What I can do is prod those around me to think about the 'real' aspects such as fuel and infrastructure that need to be in place before we 'go live'.
I'm not aware that we've only got 10 months to have it all working, and even that date is slipping, I would have thought this will all take 5 to 10 years to be joined up so I don't expect management to tell me every comment of every meeting as soon as it's happened. Some of you need to wake up and realise where you are in the organisation, influence what you can, continue to fly, safely and let the management get on with the big picture. If you're a pilot or observer the job isn't changing so just do it to the best of your ability, of course if you are in a position to influence the bigger picture then get on with it and stop bleating on here!
There are those on here who seem to think they or I, may have influence beyond 'our' pay grade and role, I'm certainly under no such illusion. The national plan is what it is and my opinion of its present format will be kept to myself. I do however continue to try to make sure that what I can influence I do. I regularly cover up to 5 counties with one aircraft, so you might agree (or not) that I and my colleagues in east anglia have been to the future and we're learning lessons from it. Yes, I'd like to see a system where we have an aircraft in every county, but I've been told we're broke and the plan is going ahead, I can't influence that. What I can do is prod those around me to think about the 'real' aspects such as fuel and infrastructure that need to be in place before we 'go live'.
I'm not aware that we've only got 10 months to have it all working, and even that date is slipping, I would have thought this will all take 5 to 10 years to be joined up so I don't expect management to tell me every comment of every meeting as soon as it's happened. Some of you need to wake up and realise where you are in the organisation, influence what you can, continue to fly, safely and let the management get on with the big picture. If you're a pilot or observer the job isn't changing so just do it to the best of your ability, of course if you are in a position to influence the bigger picture then get on with it and stop bleating on here!