UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Looks like there are some people on the pitch, they think it's all over.
FF I would love to think that there is a large pot of money and the Government could keep throwing money at all public services, but they can't £700,000 saved is £700,000 saved, Forces nation wide are happy to save £10,000 here and there, why? because they all add up.
What you forgot to factor into your maths FF was the fact that despite the fact that a PC is paid at max circa £37,000 PA gross, the Force also have to make a NI contribution on that Officers behalf taking the TRUE cost to the Force to circa £42,000 the same can be said for all ranks, and yes the officers will need paying but SYP is reducing its numbers so those 13 (Unlucky?) staff will be absorbed into that downsising in year one.
I did round up figures to the nearest £100 and the nearest 0.1% when calculating percentages, either way you cut it the figures show a saving even if it is only £1.00 it's a saving, that you cannot argue against.
Like I said, I have been more than transparent where I get my figures from, can the same be said of FF, I also notice that there has been no comment on My questions
and
Does FF have answers to these questions or is he just a troll? (Wonder if that one will get answered?)
Cogent argument wins the day?
FF I would love to think that there is a large pot of money and the Government could keep throwing money at all public services, but they can't £700,000 saved is £700,000 saved, Forces nation wide are happy to save £10,000 here and there, why? because they all add up.
What you forgot to factor into your maths FF was the fact that despite the fact that a PC is paid at max circa £37,000 PA gross, the Force also have to make a NI contribution on that Officers behalf taking the TRUE cost to the Force to circa £42,000 the same can be said for all ranks, and yes the officers will need paying but SYP is reducing its numbers so those 13 (Unlucky?) staff will be absorbed into that downsising in year one.
I did round up figures to the nearest £100 and the nearest 0.1% when calculating percentages, either way you cut it the figures show a saving even if it is only £1.00 it's a saving, that you cannot argue against.
Like I said, I have been more than transparent where I get my figures from, can the same be said of FF, I also notice that there has been no comment on My questions
Where is south Yorkshires aircraft at 01-00 on a Sunday morning?
I notice from here that West Yorkshire were in South Yorkshire at 20-30 on Sunday night, where was their aircraft at that time, down for maintenance or something else
Cogent argument wins the day?
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one last post before I politely bow out....
Thanks for making it personal.... I have no idea what a troll is????
To answer the last questions...
The West Yorks a/c was probably in South Yorks doing exactly the same thing as the South Yorks a/c did when it was in West Yorks for the recent riots, or the recent EDL marches or when West Yorks had unscheduled maint, or on its annual service.
Maybe even the same reason the South Yorks a/c was in Humberside doing the same thing or for its impromptu marches and when Humbersides a/c was on maint....
South Yorks do not provide 24hr cover, neither does Humberside which is why along with West Yorks they have developed a consortium, which has been running for many years. Long before NPAS and its deluded followers ever thought up this very poor excuse for Nationalisation....
Hand on hearts, I know this incarnation will not save money and so do you... It will however cost lives, livelihoods and peace of mind for many thousands, when they realise they still have 20 mins to wait for a police helicopter....
I am very secure in my employment, but I know as developments and announcments from NPAS continue there will be lots who wont be. Possibly many who thought they were safe....
Fly safe , Final Flare out.....
To answer the last questions...
The West Yorks a/c was probably in South Yorks doing exactly the same thing as the South Yorks a/c did when it was in West Yorks for the recent riots, or the recent EDL marches or when West Yorks had unscheduled maint, or on its annual service.
Maybe even the same reason the South Yorks a/c was in Humberside doing the same thing or for its impromptu marches and when Humbersides a/c was on maint....
South Yorks do not provide 24hr cover, neither does Humberside which is why along with West Yorks they have developed a consortium, which has been running for many years. Long before NPAS and its deluded followers ever thought up this very poor excuse for Nationalisation....
Hand on hearts, I know this incarnation will not save money and so do you... It will however cost lives, livelihoods and peace of mind for many thousands, when they realise they still have 20 mins to wait for a police helicopter....
I am very secure in my employment, but I know as developments and announcments from NPAS continue there will be lots who wont be. Possibly many who thought they were safe....
Fly safe , Final Flare out.....
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If you think that was personal......
FF In relation to having words put in my mouth, I think that it WILL save money, yes it stands to reason that the aircraft will be less effective, but lets not forget we are trying to save money here.
If you feel that I was making it personal by asking you to prove the veracity of your claims then yes that question was aimed at you personally. Your decision to bow out does throw some doubt on your 'figures' though.
If you feel that I was making it personal by asking you to prove the veracity of your claims then yes that question was aimed at you personally. Your decision to bow out does throw some doubt on your 'figures' though.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
What does the future bring ?
BBC News - Failed fire project wasted £469m, says committee of MPs
A project to set up nine regional control centres for fire and rescue services in England was a "complete failure" and wasted £469m, MPs say.
The public accounts committee said the Firecontrol scheme had not achieved any of its objectives and that eight of the centres were empty "white elephants".
The public accounts committee said the Firecontrol scheme had not achieved any of its objectives and that eight of the centres were empty "white elephants".
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Facts - or un-informed Guesses?
As I do not hide behind a false identity and am employed as Chief Pilot at South Yorks lets get some facts straight.
First, under the Formal Consortium Agreement South Yorks (and Humberside) already have 24 Hour cover from West Yorkshire.
Second, NPAS were supplied with the following figures for the actual 2010/11 budget for the Total of all Costs of providing the SYP Helicopter, which was £1.63m. We also supplied the projected figure for the Total of all Costs for the fiscal year 2011/12 which was £1.68m. The figure that NPAS then reproduced in their briefing document was £1,852,000:00p. ??
Third, Observers (Police Officers). Those observers who do not wish to transfer to NPAS (Terms and Conditions of "New" employer not yet known) will have to be retained within OSS (our Operational Support Services Arm) therefore no savings will be made on salaries unless staff transfer.
Forth, as SYP Pilots and Engineers are directly employed they are guaranteed positions within the new NPSAS framework (under TUPE rules). As each region comes on-line positions will be advertised within NPAS. Contracted staff at units taken over by NPAS have no transfer rights under TUPE and will have to look to their contractor to provide alternate employment, or resign and join NPAS as new employers.
Fifth, we have done to death the lack of cover that will follow disbandment of the Unit at Sheffield, it doesn't make sense in any way and we have proved that in a response to NPAS ! However, the real reason falls into difficult territory but revolves around the fact the SYP are entirely self contained with our own PART 145 Engineering and Directly Employed Engineers and Pilots. We have no nasty penalty clauses that would interfere with NPAS budget predictions compred to other Units who have costly Engineering/Facility contracts which would have to be terminated if the Units were to close or be relocated - hence we are a cheap target to chop.
Finally, if you don't believe any of the above then feel free to challenge your own management (who might not be telling you the facts) or NPAS.
These are the facts, no; "I think", "I suggest" or "I assume" .
As for me, I retire in Jan 2013 and will observe with interest from afar!
First, under the Formal Consortium Agreement South Yorks (and Humberside) already have 24 Hour cover from West Yorkshire.
Second, NPAS were supplied with the following figures for the actual 2010/11 budget for the Total of all Costs of providing the SYP Helicopter, which was £1.63m. We also supplied the projected figure for the Total of all Costs for the fiscal year 2011/12 which was £1.68m. The figure that NPAS then reproduced in their briefing document was £1,852,000:00p. ??
Third, Observers (Police Officers). Those observers who do not wish to transfer to NPAS (Terms and Conditions of "New" employer not yet known) will have to be retained within OSS (our Operational Support Services Arm) therefore no savings will be made on salaries unless staff transfer.
Forth, as SYP Pilots and Engineers are directly employed they are guaranteed positions within the new NPSAS framework (under TUPE rules). As each region comes on-line positions will be advertised within NPAS. Contracted staff at units taken over by NPAS have no transfer rights under TUPE and will have to look to their contractor to provide alternate employment, or resign and join NPAS as new employers.
Fifth, we have done to death the lack of cover that will follow disbandment of the Unit at Sheffield, it doesn't make sense in any way and we have proved that in a response to NPAS ! However, the real reason falls into difficult territory but revolves around the fact the SYP are entirely self contained with our own PART 145 Engineering and Directly Employed Engineers and Pilots. We have no nasty penalty clauses that would interfere with NPAS budget predictions compred to other Units who have costly Engineering/Facility contracts which would have to be terminated if the Units were to close or be relocated - hence we are a cheap target to chop.
Finally, if you don't believe any of the above then feel free to challenge your own management (who might not be telling you the facts) or NPAS.
These are the facts, no; "I think", "I suggest" or "I assume" .
As for me, I retire in Jan 2013 and will observe with interest from afar!
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As Homer Simpson once said.
"in this house you will obey the laws of thermodynamics!".
(one of the children had managed perpetual motion).
Or:
You can't get more, for less.
NPAS is purely about saving money, nothing more, nothing less.
The shortcomings of the service provided thereafter are not an issue.
ASUs will soon accept that they simply will not be performing the same role as before. In a press release recently NPAS stated "all requests for air cover will be closely vetted and only authorised if the use of the a/c is suitable."
So the goalposts for deployment are already narrowing. Apparently my own force control room won't be able to deploy our a/c without going thru NPAS command and control FIRST !!
In the SYP example the formation of NPAS has given the Ch Const. The chance to wash his hands of a difficult decision. (although I gather he has conveniently taken his retirement now ! Nice.)
If NPAS is the future, then fair enough. But as stated before, the cost saving to SYP is 0.23% on the gross annual budget.
"in this house you will obey the laws of thermodynamics!".
(one of the children had managed perpetual motion).
Or:
You can't get more, for less.
NPAS is purely about saving money, nothing more, nothing less.
The shortcomings of the service provided thereafter are not an issue.
ASUs will soon accept that they simply will not be performing the same role as before. In a press release recently NPAS stated "all requests for air cover will be closely vetted and only authorised if the use of the a/c is suitable."
So the goalposts for deployment are already narrowing. Apparently my own force control room won't be able to deploy our a/c without going thru NPAS command and control FIRST !!
In the SYP example the formation of NPAS has given the Ch Const. The chance to wash his hands of a difficult decision. (although I gather he has conveniently taken his retirement now ! Nice.)
If NPAS is the future, then fair enough. But as stated before, the cost saving to SYP is 0.23% on the gross annual budget.
Ey up, Bertie - tell us more. Pretty please!
Tightgit
The judges argued that "while the right to act as a pilot may be limited from that age [60], total prohibition goes beyond that which is necessary to ensure air traffic safety".
Notwithstanding the pros and cons of the argument for the restriction on commercial pilots after age 60, this has little to do with the regulator - it is a comment on the industrial agreement in force at Lufthansa.
Jim
Jim
Tightgit
Without getting too much into thread creep. I highlighted what I think is always going to be the problem, in that the decision statement implies that the judges agree that a limitation for 'air traffic safety' is acceptable.
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SYP Savings
Sorry to press the point, but after the SYP contribution to the NPAS replacment aircraft scheme (somewhere around £300,000) is included there will be NO, repeat NO savings to SYP, which is why NPAS are reluctant to use accurate current costs or provide anywhere near accurate projected costs. They know they will rise and the Chief Constables would not have signed-up, neither would the Police Authorities if the true figures were known!
National Police Aviation is to be supported, BUT doing it this way is going to cost much more than advertised and the service WILL be much poorer.
With respect to those people who still refer to "Our aircraft" and "Our base" - it will not be yours it will be NPAS', under NPAS control and NPAS direction and the staff will be from the NPAS pool.
There is a huge amount of assumptions being made by everyone surrounding what will happen. Because the SYP unit is to close we have, perhaps, asked more awkward questions rather than resting on our heels. I would still suggest that everyone starts lobbying for the truth.
National Police Aviation is to be supported, BUT doing it this way is going to cost much more than advertised and the service WILL be much poorer.
With respect to those people who still refer to "Our aircraft" and "Our base" - it will not be yours it will be NPAS', under NPAS control and NPAS direction and the staff will be from the NPAS pool.
There is a huge amount of assumptions being made by everyone surrounding what will happen. Because the SYP unit is to close we have, perhaps, asked more awkward questions rather than resting on our heels. I would still suggest that everyone starts lobbying for the truth.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Adding £300,000 to the running costs of a unit in a briefing document, for that unit to subsequently be selected for closure in the name of savings smells of something underhand to me. I won't say the words that may be more applicable, as like Mal, I have made no attempts to hide my identity.
Needless to say, there are still a lot of unanswered questions about the financial side to NPAS that are being avoided. I understand the reasons why noone from NPAS is answering questions here in public that's why the POLKA aviation site was created, just a pity there are no answers there either.
Can anyone name a force whose financial department was contacted prior to Oct 2010 and asked about operating costs or financial futures?
I feel an inquiry will be somewhere down the line.
As things are, we are getting into regionalisation nicely and it will work, regionally, however this was in the pipeline many years ago. Perhaps NPAS is proving to be a step too far.
Can anyone yet explain the logic behind the distribution of units in the NW ?
Needless to say, there are still a lot of unanswered questions about the financial side to NPAS that are being avoided. I understand the reasons why noone from NPAS is answering questions here in public that's why the POLKA aviation site was created, just a pity there are no answers there either.
Can anyone name a force whose financial department was contacted prior to Oct 2010 and asked about operating costs or financial futures?
I feel an inquiry will be somewhere down the line.
As things are, we are getting into regionalisation nicely and it will work, regionally, however this was in the pipeline many years ago. Perhaps NPAS is proving to be a step too far.
Can anyone yet explain the logic behind the distribution of units in the NW ?
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Can anyone yet explain the logic behind the distribution of units in the NW ?
As I understand it, Merseyside were pretty much shafted, for whatever reason. On the plus side, the other local (ish) ASU's are getting to see more of Liverpool/Manchester.
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South Yorkshire Air Support Unit....
I see the Police Authority have just decided to reject the NPAS proposal.
It's good to see the people that count have their heads screwed on and haven't been hoodwinked by the NPAS jackanory machine....
It's good to see the people that count have their heads screwed on and haven't been hoodwinked by the NPAS jackanory machine....
