UK Police helicopter budget cuts
As a change from being plagued by the Cleveland police jollies I've just been treated to the wanderings of what appeared to be a 407 in camouflage paint. 2nd time in three days. Any info would be welcome.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
If you've got an expensive asset, not manning it adequately would be a little irresponsible, I'd suggest.
Back to thread, how will the NPAS system cope with the last minute sickie, maternity leave, courses, conferences, etc? Along with the pool of aircraft, floater pilots and engineers, will there be a pool of observers?
Strange that for the sake of an evenings £20 overtime payout, it would be acceptable to fly the extra £000's in order for another aircraft to cover areas due to insufficient manning
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Talkering of other aircraft ......
This is "interesting" ....
G-INFO registration / new ownership details for G-NWPS
What's that all about ? - Just 2 days ago ?
Some fiendish plan to stop NPAS snaffling their chopper ?
G-INFO registration / new ownership details for G-NWPS
What's that all about ? - Just 2 days ago ?
Some fiendish plan to stop NPAS snaffling their chopper ?
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role equipment costs and some ideas for police a/c
Thanks for the info on costs of police role equipment to the folk who replied, it was around the million I thought especially with radios etc 
Re the discussion on single crew ops, I've done it on many a night shift, and it depends on the pc if he wants you to monitor or answer a radio for him/her. Some are ok others are its my toy type of thing!
Its Not hard to monitor even with 2/3 radios and atc. You simply trun down the radio you dont want to hear so much. In these days of gps the maps are only backup and its far from rocket science. Some obs like to make it sound hard but its not. The area becomes very familiar when you've done it for a few months without the maps.
Usually on scene even on a pursuit its all controlled by one radio possibly 2 especially in the post airwave era. It just means you start using selective hearing and using the volumes on the box.
I think you would find reducing the crew to one observer would not affect anything mission wise, except the weight and then you could then carry more fuel.
Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem.
Its only a problem to some that are not really upto speed on the kit or the area from where I've been sat. Not a dig there by the way.
I would also stop any police attachments from having free jollies in the a/c, they should just hand out a video of what can be done by the a/c, searches etc. A good aid to this would be a card to say how to identify themselves and not try to say east or west from there position as most wouldnt know at a scene. Teaching them at a station about how to put a good containment on a scene would be far better than a free flight. Some come back for more free flights!
If you had inhouse training test sessions for the observers on return flights to test them every month instead of the yearly line check, I think you would find anyone wanting to stay on the unit would make sure they were upto speed to go it alone if it ever came about.
It would also save a lot of money, as I think most 5yr+ (service) cops who are generally observers are all on the same money as the pilot these days, and thats not counting the massive overtime payments they get with the extra days off in lieu etc.
If NPAS did contract pilotage out they would probably get better rates from the people like PAS who usually charge double what the pilot gets a year if it was a national setup. You need your floaters etc but that wouldnt add too much in the general run of things, certainly not double what a pilot earns currently.
Just a few thoughts and dont think I've tread on anyones toes this time around
I'm still making my own tea by the way
Re the discussion on single crew ops, I've done it on many a night shift, and it depends on the pc if he wants you to monitor or answer a radio for him/her. Some are ok others are its my toy type of thing!
Its Not hard to monitor even with 2/3 radios and atc. You simply trun down the radio you dont want to hear so much. In these days of gps the maps are only backup and its far from rocket science. Some obs like to make it sound hard but its not. The area becomes very familiar when you've done it for a few months without the maps.
Usually on scene even on a pursuit its all controlled by one radio possibly 2 especially in the post airwave era. It just means you start using selective hearing and using the volumes on the box.
I think you would find reducing the crew to one observer would not affect anything mission wise, except the weight and then you could then carry more fuel.
Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem.
Its only a problem to some that are not really upto speed on the kit or the area from where I've been sat. Not a dig there by the way.
I would also stop any police attachments from having free jollies in the a/c, they should just hand out a video of what can be done by the a/c, searches etc. A good aid to this would be a card to say how to identify themselves and not try to say east or west from there position as most wouldnt know at a scene. Teaching them at a station about how to put a good containment on a scene would be far better than a free flight. Some come back for more free flights!
If you had inhouse training test sessions for the observers on return flights to test them every month instead of the yearly line check, I think you would find anyone wanting to stay on the unit would make sure they were upto speed to go it alone if it ever came about.
It would also save a lot of money, as I think most 5yr+ (service) cops who are generally observers are all on the same money as the pilot these days, and thats not counting the massive overtime payments they get with the extra days off in lieu etc.
If NPAS did contract pilotage out they would probably get better rates from the people like PAS who usually charge double what the pilot gets a year if it was a national setup. You need your floaters etc but that wouldnt add too much in the general run of things, certainly not double what a pilot earns currently.
Just a few thoughts and dont think I've tread on anyones toes this time around
I'm still making my own tea by the way
Nail the Dream
Thats their old machine, it went back to the owning bank a few months ago at the end of its lease. They then took delivery of their new one.
Perhaps the bank has sold it on!
Tigerfish
Perhaps the bank has sold it on!
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 9th Mar 2011 at 14:59.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mr LynxnoMore once again highlights the lack of understanding of the differences between a rural force and an urban force and as we are about to 'go national', gives some very silly points of view.
As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.
Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.
I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.
To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!
The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.
The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close
As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.
Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.
I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.
To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!
The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.
The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close
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Lynx - your posts seem to get more bizarre.
Your opinions of Obs abilities aside (already covered in previous post re CRM attitudes), your experience would appear to have been in a very small area with old aircraft & older kit? I'm afraid I'm presuming (from your posts) that you've not actually operated one of the newer machines, with current suite of equipment, for a Police Unit, for some while?
Many units today are working over multiple counties, listening to more than one county radio as well as primary & secondary working channels. To honestly expect anyone to "know the area" as you're suggesting (and if NPAS plans come to fruition, we'll be expected to operate in much larger & less familiar areas) would be unreasonable. To manage the camera; record evidence with continuity; provide a detailed commentary with road names etc for effective use of the teams on the ground; add in Nitesun; etc. etc. is not something that can be done sweat-free by even the most skilled Obs I've met - more importantly, it's a dis-service to the Police we're there to support.
And who's going to do all these return-flight-checks when single crewed??
I'm afraid as far as salaries go, you're also well behind the drag curve, but I haven't got the energy to go there.
Just previewed my (interrupted) post to find SS's post with similar sentiments - with which I'd concur.
Do keep on making the tea.
Your opinions of Obs abilities aside (already covered in previous post re CRM attitudes), your experience would appear to have been in a very small area with old aircraft & older kit? I'm afraid I'm presuming (from your posts) that you've not actually operated one of the newer machines, with current suite of equipment, for a Police Unit, for some while?
Many units today are working over multiple counties, listening to more than one county radio as well as primary & secondary working channels. To honestly expect anyone to "know the area" as you're suggesting (and if NPAS plans come to fruition, we'll be expected to operate in much larger & less familiar areas) would be unreasonable. To manage the camera; record evidence with continuity; provide a detailed commentary with road names etc for effective use of the teams on the ground; add in Nitesun; etc. etc. is not something that can be done sweat-free by even the most skilled Obs I've met - more importantly, it's a dis-service to the Police we're there to support.
And who's going to do all these return-flight-checks when single crewed??
I'm afraid as far as salaries go, you're also well behind the drag curve, but I haven't got the energy to go there.
Just previewed my (interrupted) post to find SS's post with similar sentiments - with which I'd concur.
Do keep on making the tea.
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Mr LynxnoMore once again highlights the lack of understanding of the differences between a rural force and an urban force and as we are about to 'go national', gives some very silly points of view.
As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.
Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.
I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.
To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!
The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.
The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close
As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.
Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.
I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.
To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!
The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.
The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close
Single crewing is no big deal and certainly not for half the police air ops which
in the case of Cleveland involves dropping in to schools.I'd like to see a lot of non metro police ops back in simple helicopters.
As you have established I fly both helicopters and fixed wing funded from my own pocket.
I've been campaigning through my MP and a few others at Westminster to impose big cuts on the toys the police use. I and my fellow taxpayers are picking up big bills for expensive kit being used to chase yobbo's playing chase me most of the time.
As for multi tasking...try hand flying a Citation 1 on an ILS one dark winter evening with a very low base and vis and a strong crosswind.(Single crew private jet)
Or a Malibu jetprop. A lot of plank pilots fly twin engine single pilot ops over distances that would make your job look like a weekend jolley.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Phil,
Clearly I am not worthy of replying to your post, however I think deep down you would expect me to.
The thing is Phil, I pay as much as you, possibly more, into the big pot that pays for these aircraft, but the difference is that I actually get to see their worth to the public. I'm surprised that you aren't complaining about our current military pilots giving it some with some of the real big boys toys paid for with your money. Surely there are more peaceful and cheaper ways of doing that job. Even more pilots getting paid to pilot, heaven forbid!
Single crewing is a big deal and if you kept up with the times, you would realise that what is now a rural force, will soon be required to work in an urban environment. For that reason, these rural units couldn't be put into simple helicopters.
Your comment about chasing yobbos playing chase me, continues the proof that you really haven't a clue about the role of a police helicopter.
As I said before, I don't want to go for a pi$$ing contest, but I'm sure many here remember the Chipmunk solo days..."Finals for slot 1, no 2, make that slot 4" or a LWNA letdown, used in anger, in a floppy!
Must be really difficult flying a long way in straight lines. 
The invite to visit us is still open.
Clearly I am not worthy of replying to your post, however I think deep down you would expect me to.
The thing is Phil, I pay as much as you, possibly more, into the big pot that pays for these aircraft, but the difference is that I actually get to see their worth to the public. I'm surprised that you aren't complaining about our current military pilots giving it some with some of the real big boys toys paid for with your money. Surely there are more peaceful and cheaper ways of doing that job. Even more pilots getting paid to pilot, heaven forbid!
Single crewing is a big deal and if you kept up with the times, you would realise that what is now a rural force, will soon be required to work in an urban environment. For that reason, these rural units couldn't be put into simple helicopters.
Your comment about chasing yobbos playing chase me, continues the proof that you really haven't a clue about the role of a police helicopter.
As I said before, I don't want to go for a pi$$ing contest, but I'm sure many here remember the Chipmunk solo days..."Finals for slot 1, no 2, make that slot 4" or a LWNA letdown, used in anger, in a floppy!
A lot of plank pilots fly twin engine single pilot ops over distances that would make your job look like a weekend jolley.
The invite to visit us is still open.
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Glad your back Phil, you're great entertainment. I'm amazed how much you know about police air ops, how easy single crewing is etc and have such strong views on the matter when I might be so bold as to assume that you have never been with 100 yds of a police helicopter. Oh yes, I forgot, you've seen Police, Camera, Action.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Oh Phil,
Next time you are in touch with your MP and 'others in Parliament', ask them to stop the Dept of the Environment investing hundreds of thousands into the British Motorsport industry.
SS
Next time you are in touch with your MP and 'others in Parliament', ask them to stop the Dept of the Environment investing hundreds of thousands into the British Motorsport industry.
SS