UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Well done B.Stuff, that's another delay while a think tank/working group/framework is sorted out to discuss that question.
By the time you get an answer, natural erosion would have done the work for you
By the time you get an answer, natural erosion would have done the work for you
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Does anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that in excess of £25 mill has been spent so far, in order to save £15 mill.
Also, is it true to say that we are still further back in the regionalisation/nationalisation plan than we were 18 months ago?
Also, is it true to say that we are still further back in the regionalisation/nationalisation plan than we were 18 months ago?
Too Risky!
Crikey SilsoeSid you really are risking a call from the heavies!
They tried it on me but reports of my death were greatly exagerated! The wounds in my back are recovering and I am just waiting for the right moment.
As I have so often said. The long term plan for a National Police Air wing delivered regionally, makes total sense. It is just the method of getting there that needs close examination. The saving of huge amounts of money has been placed above effectiveness, and in the end public safety.
Tigerfish
They tried it on me but reports of my death were greatly exagerated! The wounds in my back are recovering and I am just waiting for the right moment.
As I have so often said. The long term plan for a National Police Air wing delivered regionally, makes total sense. It is just the method of getting there that needs close examination. The saving of huge amounts of money has been placed above effectiveness, and in the end public safety.
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 12th May 2011 at 16:42.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Well, as there is a rumour of a pot of gold to buy among other things, fuel for the black Omega for a trip up the M40, I will say this only once.
Be interesting to see as soon as NPAS is in existence, how long it takes to reply to a Freedom of Information request asking; 'In which order was every process established'.
3 guesses as to what was the very first thing to be sorted ;-)
No, it wasn't bases
No, it wasn't pilotage
No, it wasn't pay and pensions
No, it wasn't unit management
No, it wasn't cross force finances
No, it wasn't terms and conditions
No, it wasn't engineering contracts
No, it wasn't fuel and operating costs
No, it wasn't what you are probably thinking...or is it !
This post will self-destruct in 30 seconds
Be interesting to see as soon as NPAS is in existence, how long it takes to reply to a Freedom of Information request asking; 'In which order was every process established'.
3 guesses as to what was the very first thing to be sorted ;-)
No, it wasn't bases
No, it wasn't pilotage
No, it wasn't pay and pensions
No, it wasn't unit management
No, it wasn't cross force finances
No, it wasn't terms and conditions
No, it wasn't engineering contracts
No, it wasn't fuel and operating costs
No, it wasn't what you are probably thinking...or is it !
This post will self-destruct in 30 seconds
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The problem is, if you keep something that affects so many people so close to your chest, those people will begin to speculate, rumour monger and question what is going on.
What is going on at the moment? Anyone know?
Having none of the many questions asked being answered either here, (understandable I guess being in the public domain), or on the restricted POLKA site, (the most difficult site to get to see, let alone get answers) leads some to probably come to the wrong conclusions about the whole process.
Am I correct in thinking that those involved in this monumental task have extensive experience in Police Aviation and all its facets, along with working knowledge akin to first hand UEO experience and varied experience as a member of an Air Ops crew ?
What is going on at the moment? Anyone know?
Having none of the many questions asked being answered either here, (understandable I guess being in the public domain), or on the restricted POLKA site, (the most difficult site to get to see, let alone get answers) leads some to probably come to the wrong conclusions about the whole process.
Am I correct in thinking that those involved in this monumental task have extensive experience in Police Aviation and all its facets, along with working knowledge akin to first hand UEO experience and varied experience as a member of an Air Ops crew ?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Memo to SS;
Before leaving the internet cafe in Bogotá, Columbia, logoff from PPRuNe and then logoff the computer after clearing the cache!
Juan
Before leaving the internet cafe in Bogotá, Columbia, logoff from PPRuNe and then logoff the computer after clearing the cache!
Juan
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SS
As I understand it, the main protagonists have no first-hand experience of Air Ops, the job of the crew, or the management of it. The only one that did fell off the radar as soon as a few flaws in the initial plan were pointed out, it would appear.
Obvioulsy, when investigating such large projects in any dis-jointed organisation, there can be huge advantages in bringing in outsiders, to look at the whole from the outside-in. It's done in industry all the time & gives a different and un-prejudiced perspective, which may well result in some good new ideas for added efficiencies and savings. However, normally these people are trained & experienced "consultants", who actually "consult", without ignoring experience & best practice in the way this business has to be run (from the CAA standpoint, in this case). Thinking it can be done outside the rules or, God forbid, that rules can be easily changed to suit a new model, is where this particular project starts to fall down, IMHO. Dragging in senior management &/or pilots (who do tend to know what their talking about) on an ad-hoc basis, will most likely lead to a disjointed, un-focussed, result and unlikely make any of the savings, or efficiencies, expected.
I watch with interest to see how long the remaining wheels will stay on this wagon, and don't really wish to air my predictions (on this public forum), of results or efficiences, should this plan be enacted i.a.w. current proposals!
Am I correct in thinking that those involved in this monumental task have extensive experience in Police Aviation and all its facets, along with working knowledge akin to first hand UEO experience and varied experience as a member of an Air Ops crew ?
Obvioulsy, when investigating such large projects in any dis-jointed organisation, there can be huge advantages in bringing in outsiders, to look at the whole from the outside-in. It's done in industry all the time & gives a different and un-prejudiced perspective, which may well result in some good new ideas for added efficiencies and savings. However, normally these people are trained & experienced "consultants", who actually "consult", without ignoring experience & best practice in the way this business has to be run (from the CAA standpoint, in this case). Thinking it can be done outside the rules or, God forbid, that rules can be easily changed to suit a new model, is where this particular project starts to fall down, IMHO. Dragging in senior management &/or pilots (who do tend to know what their talking about) on an ad-hoc basis, will most likely lead to a disjointed, un-focussed, result and unlikely make any of the savings, or efficiencies, expected.
I watch with interest to see how long the remaining wheels will stay on this wagon, and don't really wish to air my predictions (on this public forum), of results or efficiences, should this plan be enacted i.a.w. current proposals!
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Tigerfish
Back stabbing...the right moment for what? After all, it is your administration that's championing this...you only have to look at the number of times the Coalition has used the NPAS example in documents and speeches.
I'm not sure if you've declared an Interest in this thread.
Gloucester Enquirer
Back stabbing...the right moment for what? After all, it is your administration that's championing this...you only have to look at the number of times the Coalition has used the NPAS example in documents and speeches.
I'm not sure if you've declared an Interest in this thread.
Gloucester Enquirer
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New rumour
After recent conversations, it's my understanding that this aircraft
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation with at least one member of the NPAS team, was seen at a small elevated airfield in Southern England . . . and a further conversation that this aircraft fully equipped with police role equipment would come in at around £1.2 million. But then I was told it was that the helicopter that crashed at OBLs with the strange tail rotor configuration was 'Blue Thunder'!
Looking at reviews, this machine would appear to have a useful load of 430kgs. Fit it with 100ish kgs of police kit & radios, insert an average Pilot & one Obsever (say 180kgs) & you'd find 150kgs for fuel, for a respectable 3hrs endurance or so. At 140kts cruise, apparently excellent short-field (&, by implication, loiter) performance, and you've got quite a nice package. However, try to do a busy job with two Observers & you'll only see 60 mins or so in the air (depending on Observer largesse) and no noticeable advantage over a rotary, except you'd have to find a runway sooner!
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation with at least one member of the NPAS team, was seen at a small elevated airfield in Southern England . . . and a further conversation that this aircraft fully equipped with police role equipment would come in at around £1.2 million. But then I was told it was that the helicopter that crashed at OBLs with the strange tail rotor configuration was 'Blue Thunder'!
Looking at reviews, this machine would appear to have a useful load of 430kgs. Fit it with 100ish kgs of police kit & radios, insert an average Pilot & one Obsever (say 180kgs) & you'd find 150kgs for fuel, for a respectable 3hrs endurance or so. At 140kts cruise, apparently excellent short-field (&, by implication, loiter) performance, and you've got quite a nice package. However, try to do a busy job with two Observers & you'll only see 60 mins or so in the air (depending on Observer largesse) and no noticeable advantage over a rotary, except you'd have to find a runway sooner!
The interest in the Tecnam is not new and it seems pretty real but the interest in ZOOG is perhaps off-beam because the remaining members of NPAS team missed the PAVCon show last year in Prague.
A former member of the NPAS team, you know the sidelined one with real aeronautical knowledge, was climbing all over the real role equipped Tecnam surveillance aircraft when it was presented to him at the event and the image is just one of a series.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/OldNPASwithTecnam.jpg
Now of course that 'climbing all over' hands on knowledge is doing other things and the remaining members are apparently starting anew with a straight civil demonstrator without the real ability to show what it can do and to demonstrate how confined it is inside when doing it with real sensors and black boxes rather than visualisations and salesman talk.
We have been here before of course. Most police helicopters were sold from either 'the plan' or from the clean civil demonstrator. It was only when the airframe arrived that the bits of kit started to get in the way of swinging a cat round the 'ample' cabin and the weights meant that the 4 hour duration at 15 degrees C took a nose dive to 40 minutes at a more realistic 25 degrees!
I guess Ollie's view in Prague was far more useful than that south coast encounter. But of course that information point is no longer available.
A former member of the NPAS team, you know the sidelined one with real aeronautical knowledge, was climbing all over the real role equipped Tecnam surveillance aircraft when it was presented to him at the event and the image is just one of a series.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/OldNPASwithTecnam.jpg
Now of course that 'climbing all over' hands on knowledge is doing other things and the remaining members are apparently starting anew with a straight civil demonstrator without the real ability to show what it can do and to demonstrate how confined it is inside when doing it with real sensors and black boxes rather than visualisations and salesman talk.
We have been here before of course. Most police helicopters were sold from either 'the plan' or from the clean civil demonstrator. It was only when the airframe arrived that the bits of kit started to get in the way of swinging a cat round the 'ample' cabin and the weights meant that the 4 hour duration at 15 degrees C took a nose dive to 40 minutes at a more realistic 25 degrees!
I guess Ollie's view in Prague was far more useful than that south coast encounter. But of course that information point is no longer available.
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Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?
Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.
Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.
Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.
Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.
Chief Bottle Washer
Originally Posted by Brilliant Stuff
Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?
Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.
Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.
Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.
Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.
There is a bug that results in deleted posts still adding to the page count which results in an 'extra page' until the actual post count rolls on to the ghost page, and all becomes normal.
Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?
