UK Police helicopter budget cuts
There seems to be a slight disparity between the alleged statement 'service will not be compromised' and the cut of 60 hours. Over a 20% cut.
If you or I were stuck in an interview room in a cop shop and gave that sort of statement the cops would rightly be suspicious that there was 'summat up' ......
So why is it ok for a Chief Constable [or his PR representative] to issue such tosh?
Politicians lie and we expect it, so why is it OK for police representatives, those tasked with looking after the wellbeing of law and order, to act like politicians?
May be another nail in the coffin marked Sterling......
If you or I were stuck in an interview room in a cop shop and gave that sort of statement the cops would rightly be suspicious that there was 'summat up' ......
So why is it ok for a Chief Constable [or his PR representative] to issue such tosh?
Politicians lie and we expect it, so why is it OK for police representatives, those tasked with looking after the wellbeing of law and order, to act like politicians?
May be another nail in the coffin marked Sterling......
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Quantity but not Quality
Perhaps, and I am just taking a shot in the dark here, the 20% relates to training that they will not do as the crew will trained by Suffolk.
It could be that Norfolk did 60 hours non operational flying this year and as such, that can be removed without affecting the service provided.
As for Quality of service, what are the chances of a cop from Suffolk (hardly ever away from Ipswich in his service before joining the ASU) being as good at identifying streets in Kings Lynn as a cop from Cromer?
Despite the advances in onboard mapping and downlink, it's hard to beat a pair of local eyes.
It could be that Norfolk did 60 hours non operational flying this year and as such, that can be removed without affecting the service provided.
As for Quality of service, what are the chances of a cop from Suffolk (hardly ever away from Ipswich in his service before joining the ASU) being as good at identifying streets in Kings Lynn as a cop from Cromer?
Despite the advances in onboard mapping and downlink, it's hard to beat a pair of local eyes.
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Just my two pennies, but I believe you can buy maps of Norfolk which is all the Suffolk bobbies need, I would have thought.
The transit times I would have thought soak up a few hours.
The transit times I would have thought soak up a few hours.
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In.....
the back of the aircraft,
the heat of the moment,
the middle of the night.
There's a world of difference between looking at a map and knowing where the bad guy is running.
The biggest thing that Norfolk can't hire in from Suffolk is local knowledge.
the back of the aircraft,
the heat of the moment,
the middle of the night.
There's a world of difference between looking at a map and knowing where the bad guy is running.
The biggest thing that Norfolk can't hire in from Suffolk is local knowledge.
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airpolice : It's Not a problem :
Didn't NPAS promise a National Air Support Unit delivering a "local eyes'd" service ?
( Standing by for "Local-eyeser" related replies ).
But - What exactly IS a "National service delivered locally" ??
The words mean NOTHING -
If there is a "local" need for Air Support in an area that has had it's aircraft chopped,
then the "National" service will ( subject to increased time taken from request to despatch )
send one of the fleet, from somewhere else in the Country.
When it evenutually arrives, assuming the job is still viable when they turn up,
they will deliver their service - "locally"
If YOU were a Chief Constable faced with huge budget cuts, and the "experts" from NPAS
told you that they could save your force a shed load of money AND provide
an "enhanced" service - you'd be daft not to go along with it wouldn't you ?
Or would you be one of the increasing number that are beginning to question this statement,
and ask for more in depth explanations of exactly how the figures,
( that they or anyone at their exisiting ASU's were not consulted on ),
really add up - because some of them certainly don't !
As for Mr. Gormley, I know for a pesonal fact that he is very supportive of Air Support,
but like everyone else he can only make decisions on the "facts" that are presented to him,
but who is independently overseeing the accuracy and validity of the "facts" being put forward
And what happens when it's TOO LATE, and the "facts" have been proved wrong
Going back to PAN's latest offering - are there any politicians on theNPAS team ?
Didn't NPAS promise a National Air Support Unit delivering a "local eyes'd" service ?
( Standing by for "Local-eyeser" related replies ).
But - What exactly IS a "National service delivered locally" ??
The words mean NOTHING -
If there is a "local" need for Air Support in an area that has had it's aircraft chopped,
then the "National" service will ( subject to increased time taken from request to despatch )
send one of the fleet, from somewhere else in the Country.
When it evenutually arrives, assuming the job is still viable when they turn up,
they will deliver their service - "locally"
If YOU were a Chief Constable faced with huge budget cuts, and the "experts" from NPAS
told you that they could save your force a shed load of money AND provide
an "enhanced" service - you'd be daft not to go along with it wouldn't you ?
Or would you be one of the increasing number that are beginning to question this statement,
and ask for more in depth explanations of exactly how the figures,
( that they or anyone at their exisiting ASU's were not consulted on ),
really add up - because some of them certainly don't !
As for Mr. Gormley, I know for a pesonal fact that he is very supportive of Air Support,
but like everyone else he can only make decisions on the "facts" that are presented to him,
but who is independently overseeing the accuracy and validity of the "facts" being put forward
And what happens when it's TOO LATE, and the "facts" have been proved wrong
Going back to PAN's latest offering - are there any politicians on theNPAS team ?
I don't give any credence at all to this "You must be local to the area to police it" argument. You might have lived your whole life in Cromer, it doesn't help you know the geography of Great Yarmouth. Even if you've served for 20 years in Great yarmouth it doesn't help you know they're in the back garden of number 23.
There are lots of pros and cons to all of this but whether you live in Norfolk, Suffolk, Northamptonshire or Surrey makes no difference.
There are lots of pros and cons to all of this but whether you live in Norfolk, Suffolk, Northamptonshire or Surrey makes no difference.
I flew police 135's for years. Even with the latest FLIR system today which delineates street names as the target ducks and weaves, I have yet to meet a bobby who is comfortable outside his/her operating area under pressure at night on the radio(s) doing the con.
Add to that a shout which requires atleast a 10 or 20 minute transit to their new neighbourhood and 90% of jobs will have gone cold.
There will be a massive surge in transit times and a reciprocal reduction in success rates. This 'new' scheme is doomed from the outset. It is mathematically certain that 24 Vs 30 choppers covering bigger areas cannot be as efficient.
Will you carry more fuel to cater for these extra transit times - no because the new EC135 P2's can't cope with the excess payload in high temperatures. 902's have always had endurance problems from the outset. Is there a long range tank in the pipeline?
What the new world will create successfully is an army of managers and head office bureaucrats trying to invent a new empire.
The coal face will continue to see its coal seams shrinking and the success rate plummet.
For those who do survive in their shiney new world with their shiney new helicopters, it will prove to be a raging success. The past will soon be forgotten and the new KPI's will be de rigour.
Add to that a shout which requires atleast a 10 or 20 minute transit to their new neighbourhood and 90% of jobs will have gone cold.
There will be a massive surge in transit times and a reciprocal reduction in success rates. This 'new' scheme is doomed from the outset. It is mathematically certain that 24 Vs 30 choppers covering bigger areas cannot be as efficient.
Will you carry more fuel to cater for these extra transit times - no because the new EC135 P2's can't cope with the excess payload in high temperatures. 902's have always had endurance problems from the outset. Is there a long range tank in the pipeline?
What the new world will create successfully is an army of managers and head office bureaucrats trying to invent a new empire.
The coal face will continue to see its coal seams shrinking and the success rate plummet.
For those who do survive in their shiney new world with their shiney new helicopters, it will prove to be a raging success. The past will soon be forgotten and the new KPI's will be de rigour.
JAFO although there is some truth in what you say.... especially where air support is concerned.... there are limits that even a very intelligent moving map will not overcome. Air support never gets true 'local knowledge' unless by chance a crew member actually walked the streets where the call relates to [and walked them for a looooong time, and recently]. Local knowledge degenerates very quickly.
But there are other elements. For instance.... The Met flying over all of London is crewed by officers that will have just a tiny corner of local knowledge but the cracks are pasted over by an association/affinity with those on the ground [same force, similar way of thinking/acting]. This was overcome when they worked with Surrey but it was strained and did not really 'work' and of course they got divorced.
The trouble is the wider the area covered the less the affinity - as much as anything because most forces are very different. Despite assumptions that 'they are all cops' this is far from the truth.
One obvious element of NPAS is that [once again] the Met are doing their own thing and I suspect the shotgun marriages being arranged in the wings are going to be painful for a long time [if they ever happen].
But there are other elements. For instance.... The Met flying over all of London is crewed by officers that will have just a tiny corner of local knowledge but the cracks are pasted over by an association/affinity with those on the ground [same force, similar way of thinking/acting]. This was overcome when they worked with Surrey but it was strained and did not really 'work' and of course they got divorced.
The trouble is the wider the area covered the less the affinity - as much as anything because most forces are very different. Despite assumptions that 'they are all cops' this is far from the truth.
One obvious element of NPAS is that [once again] the Met are doing their own thing and I suspect the shotgun marriages being arranged in the wings are going to be painful for a long time [if they ever happen].
Tightgit
no because the new EC135 P2's can't cope with the excess payload in high temperatures. 902's have always had endurance problems from the outset.
Surely any increase in payload normally involves some trade off?
I seem to remember our 902 giving a better endurance than our first
135. It's pretty much the same as the current aircraft now....
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South East Region Restructure
Having closed Cambs and no doubt in the future Henlow as well there is quite rightly some concern about South Yorks also going. I for one hope they win their case as it does merit it. Sadly the money they will need must come from somewhere hence I have heard the following was considered. Instead of allocating funds to the South East Region for Suffolk to re-locate to Honington those funds will now keep South Yorks in Operation. This will mean no money for Honington and leave Suffolk remaining in less than ideal Wattisham. Once Essex move, Cambs have closed and Henlow follow it is obvious to see the pitfalls of this senario. Consideration was given to closing Suffolk and Henlow and leaving Cambs open thus not only filling the gap physically but also saving the cost of a base move to Honington and keeping Henlow open untill the Met join the party after the Olympics. Seems like a great idea so why did it not happen?? Well I am not sure, it does seem to make a great deal more sense than ploughing blindly on with an expensive move to Honington which will still not totally avoid the East Coast and Thetford Forest weather and only provides cover to some of the lowest crime areas in the country!!
One would have thought that the cost savings alone would provide the answer whilst still providing a practical solution. Given the further suggestion that the Essex base move is cancelled and they relocate to the Met base it would be easy to assume the choice should be rather obvious.
Close Wattisham and save the cost of a move
Close Henlow and save keeping it open for two further year
Keep Wyton open to cover the North or the region
Relocate Essex to Lippets Hill and save another base move where they can join the Met in the regions 24hr super base covering London and the northern home counties.
Sadly it seems those that be decided otherwise, I wonder what their motives were, clearly not money saving as they have led us to believe.
One would have thought that the cost savings alone would provide the answer whilst still providing a practical solution. Given the further suggestion that the Essex base move is cancelled and they relocate to the Met base it would be easy to assume the choice should be rather obvious.
Close Wattisham and save the cost of a move
Close Henlow and save keeping it open for two further year
Keep Wyton open to cover the North or the region
Relocate Essex to Lippets Hill and save another base move where they can join the Met in the regions 24hr super base covering London and the northern home counties.
Sadly it seems those that be decided otherwise, I wonder what their motives were, clearly not money saving as they have led us to believe.
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The Suffolk/Norfolk thing has been on the cards for at least 6 years, once budgets and legislation caught up with them it was just a matter of time, NPAS or not.
For the uninformed, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire AOUs have been doing ALL of Norfolks real night flying for the past 10 years so there's a fair degree of 'local' knowledge of Norfolk in the Suffolk crews and an excellent working relationship between the officers of Norfolk and the Suffolk AOU.
The P2+ can take around 90kg of extra fuel with normal crew on all but the more extreme summer afternoons.
For the uninformed, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire AOUs have been doing ALL of Norfolks real night flying for the past 10 years so there's a fair degree of 'local' knowledge of Norfolk in the Suffolk crews and an excellent working relationship between the officers of Norfolk and the Suffolk AOU.
The P2+ can take around 90kg of extra fuel with normal crew on all but the more extreme summer afternoons.
Last edited by Art of flight; 18th Feb 2011 at 13:55. Reason: error in text
Brilliant Stuff .... isn't that called 'flexibility?'
All very well having a tiny tank that always allows you to carry max pax at all possible fuel states but surely a tank that is bigger than you need provides the F word when your pilot wants to go a long way alone!
And no ..... I have not just looked up the relative tank capacities of all types we might wish to be comparing so its a dig at nothing just an observation .... dangerous though that may be with my reputation
All very well having a tiny tank that always allows you to carry max pax at all possible fuel states but surely a tank that is bigger than you need provides the F word when your pilot wants to go a long way alone!
And no ..... I have not just looked up the relative tank capacities of all types we might wish to be comparing so its a dig at nothing just an observation .... dangerous though that may be with my reputation
If it is true - and it was expected - the rumoured shut down of the East Anglia Air Ambulance will have an effect upon Norfolk even making it to April.
The [edited] story relating to EAAA is from a blog signed Mr Whirly Gig:-
Rumours are that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has revoked the Continuing Airworthiness Certificate of the two East Anglian Air Ambulances operated by Sterling Helicopters.
The charity - which leases two BK117 aircraft from cash-strapped Sterling Helicopters - was allegedly told on Friday by the CAA that it would need to look elsewhere.
Saturday there [was] no air ambulance service out of Norwich Airport at all, but it is understood that a replacement operator has stepped in with a single 50-year old Bolkow 105 based at Cambridge Airport.
This was expected late last year and the BO105 was brought in as part of the pre-planned measures. Bond has been suggested as the saviour. Bit of a step down from a BK to an early BO.
It all depends what the trouble is, but if Sterling has tripped up that takes Norfolk down with it I guess.
The [edited] story relating to EAAA is from a blog signed Mr Whirly Gig:-
Rumours are that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has revoked the Continuing Airworthiness Certificate of the two East Anglian Air Ambulances operated by Sterling Helicopters.
The charity - which leases two BK117 aircraft from cash-strapped Sterling Helicopters - was allegedly told on Friday by the CAA that it would need to look elsewhere.
Saturday there [was] no air ambulance service out of Norwich Airport at all, but it is understood that a replacement operator has stepped in with a single 50-year old Bolkow 105 based at Cambridge Airport.
This was expected late last year and the BO105 was brought in as part of the pre-planned measures. Bond has been suggested as the saviour. Bit of a step down from a BK to an early BO.
It all depends what the trouble is, but if Sterling has tripped up that takes Norfolk down with it I guess.
Originally Posted by PANews
If it is true - and it was expected - the rumoured shut down of the East Anglia Air Ambulance will have an effect upon Norfolk even making it to April.
East Anglian Air Ambulance temporarily grounded
Sunday, February 20, 2011
9:39 AM
Patients needing urgent medical care did not have access to the region’s air ambulance yesterday as the service was suspended temporarily.
The East Anglian Air Ambulance confirmed that due to “operational issues” with Sterling Aviation, which supplies its two helicopters, they were not able to use it.
Last night officials reassured the public that another aircraft would be in place by today as part of their contingency plan and there will be no change in the staffing levels available, although the helicopter will not be branded with the EAAA name.
Steve Whitby, deputy chief executive of the EAAA, said: “Although the current situation with Sterling Aviation is extremely regrettable we have quickly activated our contingency plan to ensure a smooth handover to a new contractor as an interim measure.
“Of course, our main concern is that the charity continues to provide a first class air ambulance service to the people of Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and Bedfordshire.
“Thanks to a strong contingency plan and excellent team work within EAAA and our partners we will achieve this.”
The charity added that the alternative aircraft would have been available earlier but adverse weather conditions prevented all air ambulance activity in East Anglia yesterday.
Sunday, February 20, 2011
9:39 AM
Patients needing urgent medical care did not have access to the region’s air ambulance yesterday as the service was suspended temporarily.
The East Anglian Air Ambulance confirmed that due to “operational issues” with Sterling Aviation, which supplies its two helicopters, they were not able to use it.
Last night officials reassured the public that another aircraft would be in place by today as part of their contingency plan and there will be no change in the staffing levels available, although the helicopter will not be branded with the EAAA name.
Steve Whitby, deputy chief executive of the EAAA, said: “Although the current situation with Sterling Aviation is extremely regrettable we have quickly activated our contingency plan to ensure a smooth handover to a new contractor as an interim measure.
“Of course, our main concern is that the charity continues to provide a first class air ambulance service to the people of Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and Bedfordshire.
“Thanks to a strong contingency plan and excellent team work within EAAA and our partners we will achieve this.”
The charity added that the alternative aircraft would have been available earlier but adverse weather conditions prevented all air ambulance activity in East Anglia yesterday.
Our new 902 came with an extra underfloor fuel tank and the fittings for a removeable spare cabin tank. We kept the underfloor tank. (+30 min approx) Very useful when positioning for hospital transfers.
I believe the removeable cabin tank is of similar capacity.
I believe the removeable cabin tank is of similar capacity.