I guess they don't like Heli's !!!!

[low-and-loud]

And that is possibly the crux of the matter - most people are more tolerant of others and the noise created by doing whatever they're doing. Tolerance thresholds vary between and what one person finds irritating, won't bother others.

I am sure this comes into it, some would choose to live by a motorway, some would not. I obviously would not! The problem in this case is that the noise was "hidden" from me until after we had moved in.

You're not retired are you?

You must be joking, but you are sort of correct, I am unfortunately stuck in this house most the day, not through my own choice. The area does has a lot of retired people, will go some way to explaining why there is so much hatred towards heli noise around here.

I must state, this is hatred towards the noise not the heli per se, if heli's were quieter I doubt I would even be here, I cannot get rid of the noise even with all windows closed (which is difficult in this stupidly hot summer we are having!)

[low-and-loud]

What did you say the name of your small village is? Help us out here...it would help in considering your plight if we knew.

Hi L&L, what are your co or-ordinates, I will make sure I dont pass overhead too often

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you, but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

Sadly my experience of the industry so far has been bad, nothing but buck passing and denial, You may say this is because I have not got what I wanted. I have asked every person I have had contact with about this whether they would find it personally acceptable (MP's, CAA, enviro health, various heli ports, 2 operators). They have all declined to comment, what does that say?

[low-and-loud]

To be quite frank, regrettably for yourself, there is little you can do, apart from accept it or move house again. However difficult that is to swallow.

I do know how you must feel. We bought a property having done the usual searches plus more besides. My family and I were faced with a similar quandary, for different reasons. A local planning issue caused us major stress for years and made our house unsaleable and at times almost untenable to live in, so we had no option but to stay and get over the issues causing our problems (in my opinion more severe than yours seem to be).

Sadly selling the house is not an option, and belive me I would take it f it was. The house has some terrible legal issues which mean that I am here until the day I die or go bankrupt, at this rate I am not sure which will come first. Not my choice but the hand life decided to deal me.

So adding to the stress of a terrible financial and legal position is the unforseen noise issue, which my wife and I did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid.

Maybe some of you have a little more understanding of my position, even if you dont agree with it. Which was the whole point of posting here.

[Senior Pilot]

low-and-loud,

You will help yourself enormously on this Forum if you can wean away from a distrustful attitude. We welcome the fact that you have come here for assistance, but you are still replying with this sort of statement

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you, but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

ShyTorque has identified fairly well the area that you come from, and has given a good summary of what may be the problem. It is obviously up to you to accept the advice or not, but a better indication of the general area will do you no harm. It's not as if you are being asked to identify your house address, just the village would help!

No one here would even bother to come near your place out of spite, but may well be able to help by avoiding it if you are a bit more forthcoming. Since you have logged and photographed helicopters overflying, are you able to identify them as civil or military? Do they follow a set route, eg flying to and from a particular direction? This would help lend substance to ShyTorque's theory that they are flying via a navigation beacon and/or a reporting point: or even that you are at that reporting point

Trust is a two way street, and we can't do much unless you trust us to help you. It will be to everyone's advantage to do so

[Whirlygig]

I wish I had the confidence in the industry to tell you,but I cannot help thinking that there are some on this board who would delight in making my life more miserable because I dare to speak out against what you obviously enjoy doing.

Gee thanks. You really believe that pilots have got nothing better to do than actually find your house and fly over it to annoy you? Oh please. You want advice but it cannot be given unless we know your location. As for "dare" to speak, I hope that is just a poor choice of words .

Yes, we enjoy flying but the very vast majority of pilots here are not hobby pilots but are doing it for a living; a job. Most were in the military at some time or another and now earn a crust doing the only thing they were trained to do.

No matter, it sounds like ShyT is right and you live by said radio beacons.

You may say this is because I have not got what I wanted.

What is it you do want? Unfortunately you have bought a house which you cannot sell and from which you can't escape that is on a heliroute/VRP for Battersea. You can't identify the helicopters. You won't disclose your location. What do you now expect anyone here to say?

I have asked ever person I have had contact with about this whether they would find it personally acceptable (MP's, CAA, enviro health, various heli ports, 2 operators). They have all declined to comment, what does that say?

It says that they are (apart from your MP) working in an official capacity and it's not their place to comment on what they would personally find acceptable or not.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
To change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

If you cannot change your situation, then letting what is a transient noise affect you so much, will affect your health. It IS a transient noise, it doesn't last long but the more YOU let it affect you, the more you will suffer. The human brain can quite easily block out sounds that it doesn't want to hear but you need to allow your brain to ignore the sound. I suspect that your difficulties with personal finances is manifesting itself in this helicopter hatred and that is where you have decided to channel your frustrations and anger. Pop-psych, I know but I thin you are going to have to find a way of dealing with your current lot rather than trying to fight it.

Cheers

Whirls

[low-and-loud]

You will help yourself enormously on this Forum if you can wean away from a distrustful attitude

An attitude that has has been obtained by trying to get some answers/action via official routes, I am here because I realise that pilots are normal humans like me and hopefully have a more human attitude than the system which does not care.......

Since you have logged and photographed helicopters overflying, are you able to identify them as civil or military? Do they follow a set route, eg flying to and from a particular direction? This would help lend substance to ShyTorque's theory that they are flying via a navigation beacon and/or a reporting point: or even that you are at that reporting point

Mostly civil I think, I am going to post some photos later to see if some of you guys can help me with ID so I can contact operator direct (I know how to get contact details from reg no, my problem is getting the reg no as already stated).

I was already certain that I was on some kind of route, probably between 2 beacons (or on one). They mainly fly east/west over me, rarely north/south. I suspect they are travelling from M25 to H7 which gives you all a pretty good idea where I live.

[low-and-loud]

Gee thanks. You really believe that pilots have got nothing better to do than actually find your house and fly over it to annoy you?

No, I dont really belive that they will, but once you know where I am, if some anti anti decides to annoy me there is NOTHING I can do about it, I am just being cautious because of the possible knock ons.......

What is it you do want? Unfortunately you have bought a house which you cannot sell and from which you can't escape that is on a heliroute/VRP for Battersea. You can't identify the helicopters. You won't disclose your location. What do you now expect anyone here to say?

You have summed it up very well. Unfortunate is a word I would use, maybe tragic (the whole situation, not just the heli's which are the final straw....) You pretty much know my location now (M25 to H7 - Ashtead/Epsom)

[low-and-loud]

If you cannot change your situation, then letting what is a transient noise affect you so much, will affect your health. It IS a transient noise, it doesn't last long but the more YOU let it affect you, the more you will suffer.

"Letting" is too much of a simplification. It is impossible to block it out. The only thing that works is loud music which is not how I want to live my life. Transient in the technical sense, and yes it does not last for long but it is so loud, so random and so frequent at times. Some helis are a lot worse than others and hopefully if I post pics of the bad ones we can make some progress.

It has already negatively affected my health, I am currently undergoing couselling for it and the financial/legal issues. I fully understand that the heli problem is made worse by my personal situation but we are all human and react to the pressures of life. The worse the pressure the worse the reaction usually.

I think I have managed to get you all to understand what it is like to be overflown like this, and please dont forget that I am not the only person in this area who feels like this, there are hundreds of us and the numbers are rising.

I also get that this is your job, and you need the money like all of us, but at what cost to others? I am not criticising your choice of job but you must realise that what you do sometimes has negative effects on others (as well as many good things, especially air ambulance etc....) Which is where the discussion of the purpose of the flights needs to come in, not something I really want to get into.

I do appreciate the time you have all taken to criticise and support me and I hope that your opinion of the anti has not been made worse, we are not all nutters who take pot shots although sometimes I have felt it is my only option :-)

Can you tell me exactly where the beacons are in my area?

[ShyTorque]

So adding to the stress of a terrible financial and legal position is the unforseen noise issue, which my wife and I did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid.

So you already had an objection to helicopter noise, above other noises. Or did you not? If so, what steps, i.e. "everything reasonable" did you take to avoid the noise problem? Or do you mean "did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid" your financial and legal position?

I ask because you say this ongoing noise occurs every day and yet you also said that you spent many hours at the house before buying it. If so, the noise must have been apparent at the time and it must therefore have been obvious to you. The two statements just don't add up.

I sympathise with your situation to some extent; I would far rather you could enjoy your house without the noise which upsets you so much. However, you appear to want everyone else to magically change their very long standing behaviour and method of earning their living to suit your recent issues (you said you have recently bought the house).

Presumably you enjoy the use of local roads and motorways, which have been there for years. How would you feel if someone who recently moved in right next to one of those roads or motorways contacted you, called you names and then tried to persuade you not to drive past their house because they didn't like the noise from your car or motorcycle? It's precisely the same sort of thing.

Again, if you would confirm the area where you live those of us here could at least try to avoid it, if at all possible. If you don't, how can you expect anyone to do anything? Or do you really expect us to tell our customers that we can't fly them because their business trip isn't seen worthwhile or necessary by some bloke who's just moved into a house near Epsom?

What about your trip to work - is that worthwhile or necessary? What if an objector to your commuter or pleasure vehicle, be it car or motorcycle told you that if you're not driving a fire engine or ambulance, to stay off the roads? Why don't you go by bicycle or horse? What about the poisonous methanol fumes and the noise from your radio controlled helicopter - are they really necessary?

[low-and-loud]

manifesting itself in this helicopter hatred

Hatred is a bit strong, frustration at the system is probably closer to the mark. If the system forced the heli's to alternate their routes on different days of the week or something then that would be acceptable in my book, but it doesnt, all the system does is deny there is a problem which there quite clearly is, proved by the many "moaning minnies" in this area. When you realise that if you were complaining about another less noisy noise something would be done but as it aviation you just have to live with it. Very frustrating.....

I always used to enjoy seeing heli's as they are pretty interesting machines (hence my hobby of model heli's - quiet electric, not noisy petrol!) but when you are continuously subjected to the noise the interest wears thin pretty quickly.

[low-and-loud]

Blimey Shy, you really are anti anti

So you already had an objection to helicopter noise, above other noises. Or did you not? If so, what steps, i.e. "everything reasonable" did you take to avoid the noise problem? Or do you mean "did everything reasonable before we moved in to avoid" your financial and legal position?

I ask because you say this ongoing noise occurs every day and yet you also said that you spent many hours at the house before buying it. If so, the noise must have been apparent at the time and it must therefore have been obvious to you. The two statements just don't add up.

No existing objection to heli noise, it had never entered my conciousness. Objection to noise in general (trains, roads) so we chose this house as it does not have either. I was not refering to everything reasonable re financial/legal although obviously we did all we could but that was not enough, the solicitor is water tight so we cannot even sue them. We did everything reasonable re noise - yes we sat in the garden for an hour or so on many days and commented on how quiet it was. I am not saying no heli's went over but obviously we did not come on a bad day. We even came here at midnight a couple of weekends to see if the nearby alleyway casued drunken noise, it does not.

The heli noise in not terrible everyday, sometimes we only get 5 or so, a bad day is 20 ish. According to locals who have been here longer than me it has got worse (in their opinions) over the last couple of years.

[low-and-loud]

I sympathise with your situation to some extent; I would far rather you could enjoy your house without the noise which upsets you so much. However, you appear to want everyone else to magically change their very long standing behaviour and method of earning their living to suit your recent issues (you said you have recently bought the house).

That is not what I want, what I want is fairness (if I lived 2 miles away I would probably have far fewer overhead) and the government to stop denying there is a problem and set up some decent form of monitoring to see exactly how many people are affected and what can be done We all have to live in this world and give and take works both ways, so far I have had nothing positive from the heli industry (apart from you guys of course!)

[low-and-loud]

Presumably you enjoy the use of local roads and motorways, which have been there for years. How would you feel if someone who recently moved in right next to one of those roads or motorways contacted you, called you names and then tried to persuade you not to drive past their house because they didn't like the noise from your car or motorcycle? It's precisely the same sort of thing.

It is not the same at all for one simple reason, the knowledge before moving in.

If I moved near a race track I would not dream of moaning about the noise, same re airport or road. It is quite clearly ridiculous. But there was no prior indication when I moved here so what am I supposed to do?

Obviously Epsom/Ashtead council cannot state "this is a lovely place to live but we do have a problem with heli noise" so how is somebody like me supposed to know of the problem prior to moving? The noise maps do not show the full picture.......

[low-and-loud]

Again, if you would confirm the area where you live those of us here could at least try to avoid it, if at all possible. If you don't, how can you expect anyone to do anything? Or do you really expect us to tell our customers that we can't fly them because their business trip isn't seen worthwhile or necessary by some bloke who's just moved into a house near Epsom?

Epsom/Ashtead. I never asked or expected you to tell your customers anything.

What about your trip to work - is that worthwhile or necessary? What if an objector to your commuter or pleasure vehicle, be it car or motorcycle told you that if you're not driving a fire engine or ambulance, to stay off the roads? Why don't you go by bicycle or horse? What about the poisonous methanol fumes and the noise from your radio controlled helicopter - are they really necessary?

I have been in a similar position to you guys and lost, so I know what it is like to be hounded away from the hobby you enjoy (I know you are not all hobbyists but you get my point). My model heli is electric as I think that petrol ones are too noisy to fly around here - and no that is not a dig, but a simple fact.

You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli, if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........

[Ikoyian]

Caveat Emptor

L&L,

I really hate to say this but would you buy a second hand car (or motorcycle) without first hearing the engine.... Why would you buy a house under a heli route if this affects you? Did you not go along to the house prior to purchase to see what the environment was like, or soak up the local surroundings before committing? A home is a huge investment, especially in these times of uncertain equity where a quick resale is difficult ,did you not see the tyre marks on the drive left by the previous owners I guess you have just learned one of lifes lessons.

You can not now expect an industry to move over because you err'ed. You now need to buy some ear muffs, we can recommend some good types here on the forum.

PS, I am looking for a nice cheap house down there.... I don't suppose, erm 10% of market value would....?

[low-and-loud]

Did you not go along to the house prior to purchase to see what the environment was like, or soak up the local surroundings before committing?

If you read my previous posts you would see that I had done everything reasonable (and beyond) to check this out.

Why would you buy a house under a heli route if this affects you?

This is not an official route, it is open air space that happens to form a well trodden path. No maps show it up as an area of concern. So short of being a heli pilot I dont know how I could ever have know prior to moving in?

You now need to buy some ear muffs, we can recommend some good types here on the forum.

I have tried ear plugs, but the low freq thud goes right through you sometimes (on certain helis, there is a big difference between them)

PS, I am looking for a nice cheap house down there.... I don't suppose, erm 10% of market value would....?

Yes I would, I am being deadly serious and would bite your arm off, but I suspect your solicitor would not allow you to buy it, hence I am stuck here.........

[ShyTorque]

You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli, if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........

I'm not "anti anti", merely matter of fact. Helicopters are now quite a normal way to travel for some; especially in your area, you don't need to explain anything in that respect.

We all also know that helicopter noise can be intrusive; I certainly know that, after earning my living flying them and living near them for thirty years. If they and other aircraft were quieter, many of us would be happier, including me. I actually live under three "flight paths", one used by light aircraft at less than five hundred feet, one used by airliners operating in and out of a regional airport and the other used by transit traffic, mainly helicopters being vectored at similar heights to the ones you experience, to avoid the airliners.

If I were of the same mind as you, in a different financial climate I could try putting my home back on the market, albeit at a large financial disadvantage because the planning issue affecting me has come to fruition and has badly affected my property (devalued it by 30% according to the surveyor). The sale of it fell though in the past because of the then impending planning issue.

I'm not sure what you do actually want us to do about your problem. We are constrained where we fly, by the law and by other factors and are only going about our legal business. Aviation is already one of the most regulated industries. You should realise that we as individuals on this website cannot do what you want with respect to monitoring helicopter movements, any more than could (or should) a driver monitor motorway or other road movements to appease a complainer.

Edit: You are perhaps aware that other helicopter routes are available into the LHR control zone. There is another route inside the zone, (H3, you perhaps now have an aviation chart because you already know about H7). Normally many helicopters route north of you along there. However, for aircraft separation reasons that route cannot be used if Heathrow is using their easterly runways and they will do this if the wind direction so favours. In these cases, aircraft will have to go along the south sideof the zone and so you will hear more of them. I'm very surprised you make a complaint here if you only hear 5 aircraft in a day!

[RedPortLeft]

As you can probably tell by my username I am one of those NIMBY's you refer to, I am actually a normal guy who rarely complains about things but have been driven to action by the level and regularity of noise in my area.

I am active on many formus relating to my specific areas of interest (motorbikes and model helicopters) and have seen posts on the bike forums where an anti has joined in and been shot down and not given the chance to voice their side

Have I got this right ?

Someone bashing away at a motorbike then revving it for 10 minutes followed by leaving it idling for 30 minutes then charging up and down the street on a Sunday morning is fine.

Up to 20 helicopters passing overhead (how long does that take?) during the day is unacceptable.



From my experience of living near an Army barracks, the associated Lynx/Puma/Chinook helicopter movements at not that much above rooftop height are nothing compared to the local motorbike population. None of those were mentioned in the estate agents brochure. Visitors always comment how quiet it is ! Nowhere is ever going to be perfect and in my case the plus points outweigh the negative so I get over it. Turning into Victor Meldrew is a route to an early grave. Are helicopters the real problem here or just an easy target ? I realise this is probably no help whatsoever, just a different perspective. I'm not sure what else you're expecting to get out of this forum ?

[low-and-loud]

If they and other aircraft were quieter, many of us would be happier, including me.

And me! The noise is the issue and as technology cannot make it low enough yet, some other mediation needs to be entered into.

If I were of the same mind as you, in a different financial climate I could try putting my home back on the market, albeit at a large financial disadvantage because the planning issue affecting me has come to fruition and has badly affected my property (devalued it by 30% according to the surveyor). The sale of it fell though in the past because of the then impending planning issue.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation to me, and I feel for you, but I think mine is worse as it appears our house is almost unsellable at ANY price. It is terribly complicated but needless to say the last year of my life have been spent trying to sort it out and failing.

[Miles Gustaph]

So there we have it, there's no hope for any of us in the helicopter industry because "You cannot really compare commuting by "normal" vehicle to commuting by heli," and because we're childish and selfish we need it explained to us which apparently means "if I need to explain why then there really is no hope........"

Or is it more accurate to say you’re focusing all your frustrations of not being able to work, having a house with dodgy legal providence and generally being unhappy on the helicopter industry.

I'm sorry you are in this situation, I am, I appreciate you wanted to live in a lovely quiet corner of our green and pleasant land, that you have spent many hours turning your garden from a bomb-site to a nice place to live but it isn't our fault your unhappy!

If you genuinely mean to tell us that ear plugs, when indoors don't block out the horrendous thud of helicopter blades then you either have hyper sensitive hearing or you’re focusing all of your anger and frustrations into making the noise be there so you can be angry at someone or anything.

Your attitude is borderline obsessive and the problem is that your perspective is disproportionate to the problem. Your first post mentioned the inevitable legislation to come… well you know if enough miserably unhappy people such as yourself manage to focus your misplaced anger towards the industry then we will have to stop policing your neighborhoods, stop airlifting you or your friends & family to hospital and we can all be sent to the offshore industry.

I’m sorry you’re unhappy but obsessing over helicopters is a fine line to malicious persecution and boy it sounds to me line you’re very close to it. I suggest that you get some counseling and sort the rest of your life issues out before you engage in a crusade against the helicopter industry.