I guess they don't like Heli's !!!!
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I'm not sure what you do actually want us to do about your problem. We are constrained where we fly, by the law and by other factors and are only going about our legal business. Aviation is already one of the most regulated industries. You should realise that we as individuals on this website cannot do what you want with respect to monitoring helicopter movements, any more than could (or should) a driver monitor motorway or other road movements to appease a complainer.
You need to understand that heli's flying overhead are different to cars or motorbikes screaming past as they are rarer and impossible to communicate with (for example you could give the finger to an idiot on a bike, but a bit pointless at a heli as I have learned). It is also almost impossible to get any authority to do anything when you believe a law MUST be being broken.
I know that in this case it is unlikely any laws are being broken, and you can rightly defend yourselves in this knowledge, but the MP's said similar about the expenses "we broke no rules". I am not comparing you in any way to them, merely pointing out that the rules/laws are not in the interests of everyone (maybe the majority, maybe the minority, impossible to tell without stats)
I know you are already heavily regulated, and also probably follow them very well, but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry. I am intelligent enough to know why this is (avaition would collapse if they had to comply) with the obvious loss of many good things that aviation brings.
I suppose putting a human face (if that is possible on a forum?) to the noisy and pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations has helped, what has really helped is the offer to avoid area if I am brave enough to post where it is. Also I hope that I would be able to post a pic of the worst offender when I get one, to see if I can get an ID so I can contact the owner and plead my case.
Also I hope that you are a little more understanding of the issues you can cause and the sometimes complex reasons as to why reactions against you can be so strong. A persons reaction is not always unique to them or their fault, many could react the same way in the same situation.
I dont think it is unreasonable to expect necessary noise to be spread around fairly where possible, and for the law to support such action. In this case the laws are at fault, not the pilots who cause the noise and I apologise for any offence I may have caused with the "childish" comment (although I still believe that altering a poll to reflect your views is not professional in any way)
Different sides of the fence, I just hope that you never find yourselves my side
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Thanks Miles for your helpful, understanding and intelligent reply.
If all heli pilots have your attitude then there really is no hope for the industry, but I suspect the majority are a little more understanding.
Just like you cannot compare normal commuting with heli commuting, you cannot compare heli commuting with heli rescues.
I dont want to flame and have tried not to offend anyone, but being called obsessive because I dare to enter into conversation about the issue is pretty offensive. None of you had to reply.
If all heli pilots have your attitude then there really is no hope for the industry, but I suspect the majority are a little more understanding.
Just like you cannot compare normal commuting with heli commuting, you cannot compare heli commuting with heli rescues.
I dont want to flame and have tried not to offend anyone, but being called obsessive because I dare to enter into conversation about the issue is pretty offensive. None of you had to reply.
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"I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect necessary noise to be spread around fairly where possible, and for the law to support such action. In this case the laws are at fault"
Again with the blame culture, not that you bought a dodgy house, that you didn’t do your homework as too the area…
As for your statement above, do you seriously stand by that? The law is at fault because you’re obsessing over helicopters… for goodness sake.
As for your comment “but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry” …what are you talking about, seriously what the hell are you talking about, I cannot see how our heavily regulated industry gets exceptions that would affect your obsessive compulsive attitude.
Again with the blame culture, not that you bought a dodgy house, that you didn’t do your homework as too the area…
As for your statement above, do you seriously stand by that? The law is at fault because you’re obsessing over helicopters… for goodness sake.
As for your comment “but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry” …what are you talking about, seriously what the hell are you talking about, I cannot see how our heavily regulated industry gets exceptions that would affect your obsessive compulsive attitude.
Red On, Green On
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You need to understand that heli's flying overhead are different to cars or motorbikes screaming past as they are rarer and impossible to communicate with (for example you could give the finger to an idiot on a bike, but a bit pointless at a heli as I have learned).
It's pointless to make a gesture at the pilot, even if they can see you, as they probably are not in a position to avoid your location. They are either taking the shortest (and thus quickest/cheapest route, burning min fuel, causing least noise overall) or they are taking the route they have been told to take by a controller, which is not negotiable.
As far as I can see the only helicopters that you can reasonably take issue with are those on a random sight-seeing trip, who may (if regulations allow) be able to do their random sight-seeing somewhere else. I doubt there are any of these, of course.
The rest you are stuck with, I'm afraid.
L & L,
A lot of helicopters leaving Battersea track due south (unoffical route) until clear of the Heathrow zone and then turn for either Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Farnborough etc. And then do the reverse to go to Battersea. Me included but only one or twice a month. It will usually be the larger types which even at 1000 or 2000ft are bloody noisy.
I use a waypoint 10nms due south of Battersea as a turning point and then route to Ockham. Heathrow usually spit us out at 1000ft AMSL (above mean sea level) and then generally we climb to 2400ft AMSL to remain below the London Control Area.
Without a village name or general location we can't do anything to avoid you.
If you supply a location and it is on my route I will happily change the waypoint to avoid you, I am sure other responsible operators will do the same.
Sadly, alot of these threads turn into slanging matches. It would have probably been better to start the post asking us to avoid an area rather than complaining about helicopter noise as this usually wakes the trolls from their slumber.
FNW
A lot of helicopters leaving Battersea track due south (unoffical route) until clear of the Heathrow zone and then turn for either Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Farnborough etc. And then do the reverse to go to Battersea. Me included but only one or twice a month. It will usually be the larger types which even at 1000 or 2000ft are bloody noisy.
I use a waypoint 10nms due south of Battersea as a turning point and then route to Ockham. Heathrow usually spit us out at 1000ft AMSL (above mean sea level) and then generally we climb to 2400ft AMSL to remain below the London Control Area.
Without a village name or general location we can't do anything to avoid you.
If you supply a location and it is on my route I will happily change the waypoint to avoid you, I am sure other responsible operators will do the same.
Sadly, alot of these threads turn into slanging matches. It would have probably been better to start the post asking us to avoid an area rather than complaining about helicopter noise as this usually wakes the trolls from their slumber.
FNW
Chief Bottle Washer
Originally Posted by low-and-loud
I suppose putting a human face (if that is possible on a forum?) to the noisy and pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations has helped, what has really helped is the offer to avoid area if I am brave enough to post where it is. Also I hope that I would be able to post a pic of the worst offender when I get one, to see if I can get an ID so I can contact the owner and plead my case.
Please understand that while we are willing to debate and assist where possible, Rotorheads is not a forum where we will divulge the identity of an aircraft, operator or pilot going about their lawful business.
If the owner, operator or pilot voluntarily choose to be recognised, that is their choice. But please do not expect any third party "outing' on this or any other thread on PPRuNe
I'd also try not to be quite so emotive in your descriptions, regardless of how you perceive a helicopter. "Pretty menacing machines with blacked out windows and impossible to read registrations" when you have accepted that they are too high to read a rego doesn't help your case. Some Rotorheads are willingly trying to help you here, and it will go a long way to recognise that. Those who get wound up in their replies are best ignored, rather than turn this into a pointless slanging match (which won't happen: trust me
).
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As for your comment “but you have to see that aviation does have exceptions from rules which usually apply to all other forms of industry” …what are you talking about, seriously what the hell are you talking about, I cannot see how our heavily regulated industry gets exceptions that would affect your obsessive compulsive attitude.
Another example. I can fly and land a real helicopter in my garden for 28 days a year, but I can only race cars around it for 14 days. Again not an invitation for a discussion on the rights and wrongs.
As I understand it, I may be wrong, avaition gets taxed less on fuel than any other vehicular use. This is the only way avaiation can exist at the levels it does.
You obviously have issues with people challenging your industry and feel it appropriate to accuse them of mental illness, is that the result of some childhood trauma?
Oh, and by the way, I didnt realise that discussing an issue on a forum could be seen as "malicious persecution". Maybe your "issues" have clouded your view of reality?
I have never "persecuted" anybody in the helicopter industry, "maliciously" or otherwise. I may have done some serious reaserch into the subject and had some long detailed discussions with various stakeholders but none of that is anywhere near illegal or wrong as far as I know.
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As I understand it, I may be wrong, avaition gets taxed less on fuel than any other vehicular use. This is the only way avaiation can exist at the levels it does.
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Thanks Floater, for the info, the offer and the intelligent reply. It is good to hear somebody else admit that some heli's are "bloody noisy" even at legal height.
Senior - I understand why you cannot divuldge identity, that is the crux of the problem, people are told they can complain but that is not possible due to poor location of reg no. Catch 22 and very frustrating. But I do respect your position.
I do realise that some Rotorhead members are being helpful and I do really appreciate it. I also dont want this thread to be dragged down by a slanging match but I cannot ignore stupid personal swipes. I wont give credit to any others that may arise.
It is amazing what a typical spread of personalities exist here, that exists on other forums. Somehow I expected all pilots to be above your typical Internet forum member, but I suppose you are all human like the rest of us
Senior - I understand why you cannot divuldge identity, that is the crux of the problem, people are told they can complain but that is not possible due to poor location of reg no. Catch 22 and very frustrating. But I do respect your position.
I do realise that some Rotorhead members are being helpful and I do really appreciate it. I also dont want this thread to be dragged down by a slanging match but I cannot ignore stupid personal swipes. I wont give credit to any others that may arise.
It is amazing what a typical spread of personalities exist here, that exists on other forums. Somehow I expected all pilots to be above your typical Internet forum member, but I suppose you are all human like the rest of us
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Another example. I can fly and land a real helicopter in my garden for 28 days a year, but I can only race cars around it for 14 days. Again not an invitation for a discussion on the rights and wrongs.
You can land a helicopter in your garden as much as you like, the 14 and 28 day rule applies only to land not within the house curtillage... However if you were to "race" helicopters around, that would be motor racing, so could only be done for 14 days, as would "paint ball games" which comes under war games?
Kevin.
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However if you were to "race" helicopters around, that would be motor racing, so could only be done for 14 days
A very whitty example of the discrepencies in the laws
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You can land a helicopter in your garden as much as you like, the 14 and 28 day rule applies only to land not within the house curtillage...
When they make a quiet helicopter then you can allow them to do what they like......
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Dont you think that is crazy and unfair? Surely in a fair society this should not be allowed? I am not saying ban all helicopters, I am saying dont allow people to do things like this which could be hell for innocent neighbours. Helicopters should only fly from designated airfields, what is so wrong with that? They can be very noisy and some thought needs to be given to that when making laws.
What is a "designated"airfield, anyway. No such thing in law. There are licenced airfields and unlicenced airfields, both of which have planning permission to operate aircraft within the permission as granted.
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Hmm.
I suppose it comes down to the ammount of usage, my helicopter lives in the side garden here, while it's really noisey I only use it every three weeks or so, but contrast that to the chap who purchased my old house three doors away, he has a motor bike and uses that every evening (custom type) which is just as loud as the heli and overall runs for a longer time?
Then you have the chap who gets the strimmer out on a Sunday afternoon for three hours on a trot.
I think when they made the 28 day rule they lumped all forms of transport together, one could argue that landing the helicopter in a garden is just the same (transport wise) as driving a car up the drive - maybe this was correct, maybe not?
Don't forget that the helicopter was designed for just that, trips into confined areas, to base them all at airports would seem to be a waste, we would all have to fly around in fixed wing thing - which by the way aren't all that quiet either...
I suppose it comes down to the ammount of usage, my helicopter lives in the side garden here, while it's really noisey I only use it every three weeks or so, but contrast that to the chap who purchased my old house three doors away, he has a motor bike and uses that every evening (custom type) which is just as loud as the heli and overall runs for a longer time?
Then you have the chap who gets the strimmer out on a Sunday afternoon for three hours on a trot.
I think when they made the 28 day rule they lumped all forms of transport together, one could argue that landing the helicopter in a garden is just the same (transport wise) as driving a car up the drive - maybe this was correct, maybe not?
Don't forget that the helicopter was designed for just that, trips into confined areas, to base them all at airports would seem to be a waste, we would all have to fly around in fixed wing thing - which by the way aren't all that quiet either...
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For those of you who are interested, I thought I would share my similar experience of NIMBY's that destroyed a sport I enjoyed, and you may take away some valuable lessons from it.
I used to trail ride, that is riding old roads that had not been tarmac'd on a dirt bike. Some of you would call it off roading or hooning about on a dirt bike. Usual mix of people. Some (the majority in my opinion and experience) had quiet bikes, rode sensibly and courteously and never broke any laws. Others (the minority in my opinion and experience) rode noisy illegal bikes like they were on a race track.
No matter what we (the sensible ones) did, the NIMBY's were constantly lobbying parliament for the law to be changed and us to be banned. Their main gripes were the noise of the illegal bikes (legal ones are pretty damn quiet) and the conduct of the idiot riders. Even though both the issues (noise and bad riding) were covered by exisitng laws and could be enforced if the Police had the will and time, parliament chose to pander to the strong lobbyists (including The Ramblers Association - very strong) and ban us from almost everywhere. We used to have access to 5% of all off road tracks (as did anyone with a road legal vehicle), and now we only have 1%. Almost destroyed the industry overnight.
My comparison with the helicopter industry is that whilst the helicopter industry has the support of very rich and influential customers with the obvious leverage that has in Parliament, and the obvious benefits of helicopters for Police and rescue. Do not underestimate the strength of negative feeling that can be generated, sometimes for incorrect or unfair reasons. As we used to think whenever we passed a house that happened to be on the lanes, "lets be as quiet as possible, preferably so they dont hear us, so that is one less complaint to stop us doing what we enjoy".
Obviously it is more difficult for you guys to pass unnoticed! But at least you dont have to worry about spotty bike thieves giving you a bad name
I used to trail ride, that is riding old roads that had not been tarmac'd on a dirt bike. Some of you would call it off roading or hooning about on a dirt bike. Usual mix of people. Some (the majority in my opinion and experience) had quiet bikes, rode sensibly and courteously and never broke any laws. Others (the minority in my opinion and experience) rode noisy illegal bikes like they were on a race track.
No matter what we (the sensible ones) did, the NIMBY's were constantly lobbying parliament for the law to be changed and us to be banned. Their main gripes were the noise of the illegal bikes (legal ones are pretty damn quiet) and the conduct of the idiot riders. Even though both the issues (noise and bad riding) were covered by exisitng laws and could be enforced if the Police had the will and time, parliament chose to pander to the strong lobbyists (including The Ramblers Association - very strong) and ban us from almost everywhere. We used to have access to 5% of all off road tracks (as did anyone with a road legal vehicle), and now we only have 1%. Almost destroyed the industry overnight.
My comparison with the helicopter industry is that whilst the helicopter industry has the support of very rich and influential customers with the obvious leverage that has in Parliament, and the obvious benefits of helicopters for Police and rescue. Do not underestimate the strength of negative feeling that can be generated, sometimes for incorrect or unfair reasons. As we used to think whenever we passed a house that happened to be on the lanes, "lets be as quiet as possible, preferably so they dont hear us, so that is one less complaint to stop us doing what we enjoy".
Obviously it is more difficult for you guys to pass unnoticed! But at least you dont have to worry about spotty bike thieves giving you a bad name
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Part of the problem in this country is that we have too many laws, not too few. What is wrong with common sense, and a sense of acting in a responsible manner?
I would love a heli next door to me, I find them fascinating. Not to go in, but from a mechanical point of view, I love all things fast and noisy. But if my neighbour decided to go to work in it everyday I would have issues as would most. It is all about balance and that is what is missing from this law.
I certainly cannot name any cases (apart from the one I read about on this forum that was in the Mail and Express), I didnt actually realise that many people kept helicopters in their garden!
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Sacre-bleu;
you mob do go on.
Reminds me of a story of a previous employee, now departed this pleasant planet.
At a bush horse event he was, just a few short years ago with his family.
He, had had a few the night before, woke up feathery, his wife woke up quite a bit more feathery.
She chipped, at some damm thing, he who was cooking brekky, threw the brekky over her.
She got up - made a speech - and left.
He was asked, by my mate, "Goddamm Stump what on earth didja do that for?"
Stump replies, 'Buggered if I know, won't change anything. She likes making speeches, I continually run royals.'
de-ja-vu.
L&L, you didn't listen to Shy Torque, I suggest you listen to SP this thread is on a short leash, I reckon.
cheers tet
you mob do go on.
Reminds me of a story of a previous employee, now departed this pleasant planet.
At a bush horse event he was, just a few short years ago with his family.
He, had had a few the night before, woke up feathery, his wife woke up quite a bit more feathery.
She chipped, at some damm thing, he who was cooking brekky, threw the brekky over her.
She got up - made a speech - and left.
He was asked, by my mate, "Goddamm Stump what on earth didja do that for?"
Stump replies, 'Buggered if I know, won't change anything. She likes making speeches, I continually run royals.'
de-ja-vu.
L&L, you didn't listen to Shy Torque, I suggest you listen to SP this thread is on a short leash, I reckon.
cheers tet
Avoid imitations
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The difference is that you rode bikes for sport. We're doing it for a living.
Many of us are bikers, too, btw. I also take part in Classic Trials. The last time I rode one of mine off a surfaced road, (legally, carefully, quite slowly and well away from habitation) we were accosted by a woman who was almost violent in her protest. We had stopped to let her go past. She insisted in taking our registration numbers and told me she was going to report me to the police for riding there. I pointed out my friend on his bike, on her other side. He merely said: "Why not tell me, then - I AM a policeman". She became even more agitated so we rode on. Never heard another thing.
As I write this, another light aircraft has flown over my house at less than 500 feet on it's way to the airfield. I won't be complaining.
Many of us are bikers, too, btw. I also take part in Classic Trials. The last time I rode one of mine off a surfaced road, (legally, carefully, quite slowly and well away from habitation) we were accosted by a woman who was almost violent in her protest. We had stopped to let her go past. She insisted in taking our registration numbers and told me she was going to report me to the police for riding there. I pointed out my friend on his bike, on her other side. He merely said: "Why not tell me, then - I AM a policeman". She became even more agitated so we rode on. Never heard another thing.
As I write this, another light aircraft has flown over my house at less than 500 feet on it's way to the airfield. I won't be complaining.