I guess they don't like Heli's !!!!

[Non-PC Plod]

The problem here has got to be largely one of ignorance, simply because most people have absolutely no idea of what the helicopters are doing up there (hence the suggestions that all training be done over the sea etc) I remember seeing an article in the local paper by some git complaining about the police helicopter hovering over the golf course for 20 mins, and spoiling his Sunday afternoon round. His assumption was that we were on some jolly, just messing around and burning tax-payers cash. He would probably have been really ashamed to learn that we were actually looking for a missing child, (which we strangely enough prioritised above Mr X's tee shot off the third).
It made me nearly as angry as a HEMS job, when we were trying to land in a lay-by beside a remote road where there had been a serious accident, in order to casevac a critically injured person to hospital. Another git parked his car in said lay-by just as we were on finals. Despite skyshout requests for him to move his car as we urgently needed to land in the one suitable spot, he completely ignored us, put his backpack on and went for a walk. When we got a local bobby to catch up with him and ask him to move the car, he was most put out and fed up with us! If I hadnt had a job to do, I would probably have had to ask the bobbies to look the other way for a minute and physically explained the error of his ways. How can some people be so utterly, completely arrogant and self-centered? It is almost beyond my comprehension!

[low-and-loud]

I posted the reply below a few hours ago, but it was put in quaratine for a moderator, because it was too long I think, anyway here it is.

Hopefully you will now go a little easier on me once you read my story and the specifics of my complaint.

I will respond to all the accusations and criticisms tomorrow.

I certainly didnt mean to offend anyone by refering to posts as childish, but bragging about altering a poll trying to help people who are seriously affected by this issue is not the behaviour I would expect from professionals.

--------

Blimey Whirls, quick reply! I appreciate your time.

Right, I bought my house recently, intentionally away from airports and railway lines as I like a quiet life. Little road noise and no other noise to speak of, a bit of a quiet oasis in Surrey. Dont think I am some lucky rich guy, the only thing going for this house is the quiet, it has cost us dear in many ways, and now we dont even have the quiet we paid so much for.

The isse is mainly with commercials (I think, it can be very hard to tell, and trust me I have tried). I am getting quite good at telling them apart. I am getting up to 20 flights a day directly over my house, height no idea but it really does not look that high, I am sure it is around the 1000 feet mark (which is legal, I know, but legality is not the issue). I hear them from up to a minute away and when the go over, my god it is like a runway at heathrow sometimes.

No matter what I do I cannot complain to anyone, CAA not interested, council not interested, MP's pass the buck.

I dont see why they have to follow a "route" over my house, it is open air space so cant we have a bit of randomness, when they are in the distance (say half mile away) and pass the house, things are nowhere near as bad. I know they are probably following land features, but come on have a bit of thought for the people continually disturbed below.

I think 5 a day directly overhead is acceptable, but when it gets to 20 I get very angry and that is when I start investigating what direct action I can take. It is so frustrating as there is nobody to say to "come on guys, give us a break and make your noise somewhere else for a few hours" I am not a NIMBY, but I think that it is only fair the noise and disturbance is shared (and minimised eg unnecessary flights, but that is another issue....)

Over to you........

[ShyTorque]

How do you propose the flights be co-ordinated to avoid your house?

What is your definition of an "unnecessary flight" and who will decide who can, and who can't make any particular flight?

By the way, if you live outside of a congested area, as it seems you must do, you are fortunate that the aircraft are considerate enough to fly at 1,000 ft because any pilot could legally fly at 500 feet above your property.

Having said that, I generally fly at the maximum heights allowed, which is likely to be 2400 ft in your area. Most "commercials" do the same, subject to cloud height.

[low-and-loud]

I dont have an answer for co-ordination as I dont understand traffic control, but do you think it is fair that I am under a flight path when I am nowhere near an airport or under a heli path in the LCZ (I am outisde the LCZ)

Unnecessary is a subjective thing, my opinion would be different to yours, but like I said that is not the issue here.

Needless to say missions of mercy are fine, a businessman wanting to save an hour on travel is not (in my opinion).

I am in congested area so they are supposed to be at 1000, but like I said it is not the height but the regularity of the noise that is the issue. I dont find it much comfort that I am "lucky" they are not flying at 500 feet!

[ShyTorque]

Open airspace, i.e. outside controlled airspace means just that, pilots choose their own flightpath for a whole number of reasons.

If you think certain flights should not take place because of your personal bias or prejudice, you will get little support here.

I can only suggest that next time you move house, you might carry out more detailed research.

BTW, I'm sorry, but you are a NIMBY.

[low-and-loud]

I am sure your nice part of Surrey does suffer from noise pollution and operators will take any REASONABLE precautions to try to alleviate your issues. Having said that to place the helicopters in the same category as motorbikes and toy helicopters weakens your position somewhat.

I never placed them in the same catagory, all I said was that I was into bikes and toy helicopters.

Have you ever tried to contact the operators responsible for a helicopter flying directly over your house? Without the registration number it is impossible, and getting the reg number is impossible if directly overhead, few helis have it on the bottom.

This is why it is so frustrating, nobody will listen to your complaint and at least say "we have listened but consider you needs less than ours" or something. All I get is buck passing......

[low-and-loud]

If you think certain flights should not take place because of your personal bias or prejudice, you will get little support here.

I can only suggest that next time you move house, you might carry out more detailed research.

Not personal prejudice, but personal effect, these flights are directly affecting me, I would be the same if there were some little twats shouting and screaming all day outside my house.

Before we moved here, we spent hours in the garden (it was derelict) and never got an incling of the noise we would be subjected to. Any suggestions as to how you can do research into this problem, as far as I can tell it is impossible .

I dont see how wanting my fair share of noise, and no more, makes me a NIMBY?

I take it that you think that all heli flights are acceptable, irrespective of the reaons, the noise pollution and the ridiculous MPG? You are welcome to your opinoin, but green issues will make it less and less acceptable.

[low-and-loud]

Perhaps you might take a moment...actually a few hours sometime....stand out in your garden (if you have one) and do an inventory of noise sources and time them.

I would bet the major source of noise (besides the Missus and Curtain Climbers) will be Lorries, Trains, Cars, and Sirens (the noisy kind....on car tops) and perhaps some airplanes....and finally way down at the bottom of the list....helicopters.

I do, many hours, photographing helicopters and logging incidents (cue the p!ss taking, but if you lived here and knew the full situation you may actually understand)

Lorries, none. trains none, cars none, sirens a few, airplanes - regular but nowhere near a noisy as helicopters.

Sorry, but helicopters are by far the biggest noise nuisance here, and I am not just saying that, like I said we chose this house as it was quiet......

[low-and-loud]

As for the "the inevitable legislation" I'm sorry but I'm really tired of hearing this drivel... there is plenty of legislation out there to deal with aircraft noise

You must be joking, there is very little legislation for aircraft noise, in fact it is excluded from the noise nuisance act as if it were included your lives would be a lot more difficult. Sure around airprots there are limits, but in open air space they can make as much noise as they like.

[Whirlygig]

but bragging about altering a poll trying to help people who are seriously affected by this issue is not the behaviour I would expect from professionals.

And if I'm not mistaken, one of the founders of the Anti-Helicopter Coalition (the poll to which you refer) took to taking pot-shots at helicopters with a rifle. So altering a poll rather pales into insignificance in the "maturity" stakes. It also highlighted the rather Mugabe-esque manner in which the poll was being conducted.

bit of a quiet oasis in Surrey.

I am in congested area

...er, which is it? Having been born in Surrey, it's not a county I would equate with a peaceful, rural idyll. However, if you are in an isolated little hamlet, a pilot probably thinks it preferable to annoy just the few people in that small place (most of whom would be working in the City anyway ) rather than those in a larger village. And if these are different aircraft with different pilots, it is not unfeasible that they could all come to the same conclusion.

Personal irritations are always sujective; I object to neighbours who think gardening by torchlight is an appropriate activity but hey, live and let live; they're probably not fans of the banjo. But there are probably very few places in the UK where you get total peace and quiet.

Your only real course of action is to have a word with the owners/operators. If you can't see the registration (which does indicate that height is sufficient), then you could try to identify the type - that would narrow it down. However, please bear in mind that there isn't a great deal of open airspace in Surrey. You wouldn't happen to live South West of Battersea would you?

The vast majority of operators and pilots ARE aware of noise and try to abate it; it's part of our training and code of conduct. If you are "affected" by it to the extent you claim, then maybe you need to consider your priorities in life; location or peace?

Cheers

Whirls

[SASless]

20 events per day....at a minute per event....equals a rate of .01388888 of the day L and L is being bothered. Assume he is away at work for one third of the day and the flights stop after 11PM...that leaves him suffering about 0.0046266 of the day. That is ahh....errr....about 6.66 minutes a day.

For crapsakes....the Missus barks more than that?

Now where in the world does he live that there is an air corridor that has that kind of traffic to begin with? Under the London Heli-lanes.....or under the traffic pattern of a training field I wonder?

As to living there old bean....been there and done that and flew helicopters...some very noisy ones too....and never had a complaint about the noise. Lots of compliments however as it was a very special sound one of the old girls put out. You could hear it for miles....and miles and that was if I was "flying neighborly" as we try to do.

Tell us which little hamlet you live in and lets compare our knowledge of the area and see if there is an explantion for all the air traffic you report. Maybe one of us can help you find a solution to your problem.

That is your goal I assume....finding a way (if there is one) to cut down on the number of flights directly overhead your garden?

[ShyTorque]

You must be joking, there is very little legislation for aircraft noise, in fact it is excluded from the noise nuisance act as if it were included your lives would be a lot more difficult. Sure around airprots there are limits, but in open air space they can make as much noise as they like.

Incorrect. Modern helicopters have to comply with noise limits as part of the airworthiness regulations and are issued with a noise certificate.

L&L states that he lives outside the LCZ, by which I presume is meant the London Heathrow Control zone, or London City zone.

[low-and-loud]

The problem here has got to be largely one of ignorance, simply because most people have absolutely no idea of what the helicopters are doing up there

That is so true, if I could know what they were doing it would help, I may not agree with all the flights but like I said that is a diffecrent issue.

[low-and-loud]

Your only real course of action is to have a word with the owners/operators. If you can't see the registration (which does indicate that height is sufficient), then you could try to identify the type - that would narrow it down. However, please bear in mind that there isn't a great deal of open airspace in Surrey. You wouldn't happen to live South West of Battersea would you?

If the reg is on the side, and the heli is directly overhead, you cannot see the reg irrespective of height. This is one of the annoyances.

I do live South West of Battersea, outside the London Control Zone (LCZ).

I am trying to have a word with the operators, but with the difficulties in getting the reg numbers, and the sheer number and speed of the helis it is proving difficult, time consuming and frustrating to make contact. I had thought of getting a radio and transmitting a polite plea to the pilots as they pass

[low-and-loud]

20 events per day....at a minute per event....equals a rate of .01388888 of the day L and L is being bothered. Assume he is away at work for one third of the day and the flights stop after 11PM...that leaves him suffering about 0.0046266 of the day. That is ahh....errr....about 6.66 minutes a day.

For crapsakes....the Missus barks more than that?

Please dont try and trivialise my problem, if it really was that trivial do you think I would have gone to all this effort to try and get something done? (CAA, MP's, enviro health, anti heli alliance, here!!!)

I am not a serial moaner, I am a normal citizen who has found himself in a situation he, and many others, would find unacceptable and unbearable.

[Whirlygig]

I am not a serial moaner, I am a normal citizen who has found himself in a situation he, and many others, would find unacceptable and unbearable.

And that is possibly the crux of the matter - most people are more tolerant of others and the noise created by doing whatever they're doing. Tolerance thresholds vary between and what one person finds irritating, won't bother others.

I do live South West of Battersea, outside the London Control Zone (LCZ).

Well, that's where they're going most likely.

You're not retired are you?

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorboater]

Hi L&L, what are your co or-ordinates, I will make sure I dont pass overhead too often

[SASless]

What did you say the name of your small village is? Help us out here...it would help in considering your plight if we knew.

[ShyTorque]

L&l, if you live outside the zone but SW of Battersea you must live approximately between the Epsom NDB and the Ockham VOR (radio beacons), which would explain why a lot of aircraft fly nearby. Aircraft use these beacons for navigation and they are also reporting points. From operating knowledge of the area, very few rotary winged aircraft fly as low as 1,000 ft around there. Standard operating altitude for helicopters joining the London zone is 2,000 feet along that stretch and this is monitored and controlled by ATC.

I'm sure that most pilots are flying quite legally, as you have suggested yourself, and in accordance with the "fly neighbourly" advice recommended by the BHAB. The airspace in that region hasn't changed for many, many years. Unfortunately it sounds like you bought your house in an inappropriate place with regard to aviation, in view of your dislikes and opinions.

To be quite frank, regrettably for yourself, there is little you can do, apart from accept it or move house again. However difficult that is to swallow.

I do know how you must feel. We bought a property having done the usual searches plus more besides. My family and I were faced with a similar quandary, for different reasons. A local planning issue caused us major stress for years and made our house unsaleable and at times almost untenable to live in, so we had no option but to stay and get over the issues causing our problems (in my opinion more severe than yours seem to be).

[LH2]

Interesting thread. I used to live under a VRP for a moderately busy airport in southern Europe, and in all my years there, I do not recall a single person ever complaining about noise (mind you, this being southern Europe, if anything they would complain it was not loud enough ).