Night Flying and Training (Merged)
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On the visual side of things.....
We have to have two way radio contact with the ground.
They have to look for wires, obstacles, wind direction and a suitable (100x100ft) landing zone.
If possible they will spotlight what they believe is the highest/most dangerous obstacle for us.
We circle the LZ until all satisfied that every obstacle has been identified.
We shoot an approach to a point in space 3-500 feet agl and set back on the approach course in. (power rechecked for lift ability)
The cockpit is sterile, breaking squelch or voice is a stop sign.
The approach is crabbed in for slightly better vis for the pilot.
Once on the ground we use the nightsun to look again for obstacles on the departure path.
A set of eyes is used to guard the tailrotor from personel.
The departure is actually a reverse of the approach until passing the single engine flyaway point. If we have any problems up to that point the acft goes back into the LZ (and the nice helpfull rescue type people there)
Past flyaway single we rotate forward and depart.
We have to have two way radio contact with the ground.
They have to look for wires, obstacles, wind direction and a suitable (100x100ft) landing zone.
If possible they will spotlight what they believe is the highest/most dangerous obstacle for us.
We circle the LZ until all satisfied that every obstacle has been identified.
We shoot an approach to a point in space 3-500 feet agl and set back on the approach course in. (power rechecked for lift ability)
The cockpit is sterile, breaking squelch or voice is a stop sign.
The approach is crabbed in for slightly better vis for the pilot.
Once on the ground we use the nightsun to look again for obstacles on the departure path.
A set of eyes is used to guard the tailrotor from personel.
The departure is actually a reverse of the approach until passing the single engine flyaway point. If we have any problems up to that point the acft goes back into the LZ (and the nice helpfull rescue type people there)
Past flyaway single we rotate forward and depart.
Cor' somewhere in there I would get completely addled and wonder who was flying the machine! Do you take box lunches on these flights?
Sounds very professional... but at least you have all the bells and whistles, crew etc....not much to add beyond suggesting the less knob twiddling the better...one can not have too many sets of eyes looking outside when near the ground at night in a strange location. Even the known locations can have some very nasty surprises erected between visits.
I advocate the mandatory go around at any time , any one, calls chicken....wires....go around....or utters unintelligible words in high octave ranges..... pull max allowable power and after at a safe altitude....sort out what had almost happened. With absolutely no regard towards admonishing a false call.
Also...make as steep an approach as I can and set my nightsun and aircraft landing/search lights for the angle I approach....and fly down the light column if at all possible...looking for those unreported wires.....and on takeoff....do just the reverse....set the landing light/searchlights off to the sides fractionally and fly up the nightsun beam....also looking for the wires. I am less concerned about takeoff profiles...h/v curves....than being able to see the wire that is going to kill me if I hit it.
Sounds very professional... but at least you have all the bells and whistles, crew etc....not much to add beyond suggesting the less knob twiddling the better...one can not have too many sets of eyes looking outside when near the ground at night in a strange location. Even the known locations can have some very nasty surprises erected between visits.
I advocate the mandatory go around at any time , any one, calls chicken....wires....go around....or utters unintelligible words in high octave ranges..... pull max allowable power and after at a safe altitude....sort out what had almost happened. With absolutely no regard towards admonishing a false call.
Also...make as steep an approach as I can and set my nightsun and aircraft landing/search lights for the angle I approach....and fly down the light column if at all possible...looking for those unreported wires.....and on takeoff....do just the reverse....set the landing light/searchlights off to the sides fractionally and fly up the nightsun beam....also looking for the wires. I am less concerned about takeoff profiles...h/v curves....than being able to see the wire that is going to kill me if I hit it.
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I'd say push hard for NVG.
We acquired NVG about 5 years ago, but still maintain an unaided capability.
I'd be mindful of keeping eyes out of the cockpit when there is outside reference, but of course the instrument cross check must be maintained to a degree.
A steep approach provides the best obstacle clearance on average, but at the end of the approach the clearance is the same no matter how you get there. A shallower approach means the power change required to level/overshoot will be lower. Also, observing obstacles & wires from above can be difficult because they're hidden in ground clutter and depth perception is reduced at night. I'm not necessarily advocating a shallow approach, just pointing out some limitations of steeper approaches.
Once your recce is complete, if you can aim a focused night sun beam below your approach path (ie steeper) then you should be able to see most obstacles before they're a problem. This may seem counterintuitive, but imagine approaching a runway to the numbers with trees on short final. Aim the nightsun above your approach path and you'll see a clear runway. Aim it below and you'll see trees. If you aim it right where you're approaching, you should see a clear path, but you may not become aware of the obstacles that pass beneath.
This may seem obvious, but we have to remind ourselves often that maybe the best procedure is to ground transport the patient to a better area or to plan the mission to arrive on scene at daybreak.
We acquired NVG about 5 years ago, but still maintain an unaided capability.
I'd be mindful of keeping eyes out of the cockpit when there is outside reference, but of course the instrument cross check must be maintained to a degree.
A steep approach provides the best obstacle clearance on average, but at the end of the approach the clearance is the same no matter how you get there. A shallower approach means the power change required to level/overshoot will be lower. Also, observing obstacles & wires from above can be difficult because they're hidden in ground clutter and depth perception is reduced at night. I'm not necessarily advocating a shallow approach, just pointing out some limitations of steeper approaches.
Once your recce is complete, if you can aim a focused night sun beam below your approach path (ie steeper) then you should be able to see most obstacles before they're a problem. This may seem counterintuitive, but imagine approaching a runway to the numbers with trees on short final. Aim the nightsun above your approach path and you'll see a clear runway. Aim it below and you'll see trees. If you aim it right where you're approaching, you should see a clear path, but you may not become aware of the obstacles that pass beneath.
This may seem obvious, but we have to remind ourselves often that maybe the best procedure is to ground transport the patient to a better area or to plan the mission to arrive on scene at daybreak.
As an aside, there was an interesting article in Helicopter World, if I remember correctly, written by a Norwegian Super Puma pilot about NVG use and flying in snow.
I'll have a dig to see if I can find it on the net, if not I'll find out what issue it was in - very educational, even for me who's confined to overspeeding R22s at the moment.
I'll have a dig to see if I can find it on the net, if not I'll find out what issue it was in - very educational, even for me who's confined to overspeeding R22s at the moment.
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Helis of the Night
Hi,
Just a few quick questions from a non-Ppruning friend;
1. Is a night rating/check flight necessary for each type e.g. R22-B206?
2. What is the correct name for the "flare tube thingies" that hang off the rear of Robbos, where in the UK are they available, and do they require any special modification and/or paperwork?
3. Would you, faced with a engine failure at night, inflate any floats that you had?
Many thanks,
GA
Just a few quick questions from a non-Ppruning friend;
1. Is a night rating/check flight necessary for each type e.g. R22-B206?
2. What is the correct name for the "flare tube thingies" that hang off the rear of Robbos, where in the UK are they available, and do they require any special modification and/or paperwork?
3. Would you, faced with a engine failure at night, inflate any floats that you had?
Many thanks,
GA
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On most helis the floats are above the skid ( don't know if robbo is the same ) , not sure what inflating over land would do for you , make make it handle a little worse if only one side inflated I would guess . I have heard interesting stories of people landing hard on fixed floats and bouncing up. Are the flare tube thingies optional chaff dispensers LOL.
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I certainly wouldn't blow the floats, I'd be quite busy enough trying to fire the flares, pick a site, call Mayday and get in a bit of quiet screaming, "Why me, God, why me?!"
They were called Schermuly flares, by the way. Bright light on a parachute. Bang one when the donk goes, find your field, pop the next at 1000ft or so. Not cheap to fit and the flares go out of date after a time. Inadvertent firing of flares by RadHaz was a danger, particularly in a hangar!
They were rendered uneccessary if you had two landing lights, one of them steerable. Phew!
They were called Schermuly flares, by the way. Bright light on a parachute. Bang one when the donk goes, find your field, pop the next at 1000ft or so. Not cheap to fit and the flares go out of date after a time. Inadvertent firing of flares by RadHaz was a danger, particularly in a hangar!
They were rendered uneccessary if you had two landing lights, one of them steerable. Phew!
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Night Offshore Helideck Training
Hello All, sorry I haven't contributed in a while, but my girlfriend goes nuts everytime I go near the computer! I'm safe here in the United Lounge in Hong Kong, she'll never know!
Just completed some initial night deck training with a Local CoJo
and I am glad that I insisted that the other Ex-Pat I was training, remain in the back for the initial training 
, the co-jo had great difficulty in landing 
Actually, two over shoots at almost Delta fuel!
What it boils down to is that if you are involved in the initial or recurrent training for offshore night, you should consider having a competent pilot along as safety pilot
for the landing seat.
In this case, we had 14-18 kts of wind
, left seat at night and running down to alternate fuel. The fact that I had a competent pilot in the back seat, I was able to get him to swap seats 
with the initial trainee and safely land the AC without having to divert to the land alternate.
This has given several of us a reminder that when you are on night standby
, you had better think about which seat you will fly on a night callout with a local pilot that has not received sufficient training.
We all pay lip service
to this duty and have thankfully not been called out. Maybe it's time our respective companies look at some serious expenditures on training of new hires, ie Flight Safety Night Rig, or actual aircraft on sight.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Just completed some initial night deck training with a Local CoJo
and I am glad that I insisted that the other Ex-Pat I was training, remain in the back for the initial training , the co-jo had great difficulty in landing Actually, two over shoots at almost Delta fuel! What it boils down to is that if you are involved in the initial or recurrent training for offshore night, you should consider having a competent pilot along as safety pilot
for the landing seat. In this case, we had 14-18 kts of wind
, left seat at night and running down to alternate fuel. The fact that I had a competent pilot in the back seat, I was able to get him to swap seats with the initial trainee and safely land the AC without having to divert to the land alternate.This has given several of us a reminder that when you are on night standby
, you had better think about which seat you will fly on a night callout with a local pilot that has not received sufficient training. We all pay lip service
to this duty and have thankfully not been called out. Maybe it's time our respective companies look at some serious expenditures on training of new hires, ie Flight Safety Night Rig, or actual aircraft on sight.Cheers, OffshoreIgor
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Agree with what you've said, Igor. I think of my crew when I consdier what limits I'll accept on a SAR mission.
Curious, though. Why couldn't you land the helicopter? Seems to me if you can't complete the mission without one pilot incapacitated then you don't have redundancy in the least reliable system in the helicopter (pilot).
Matthew.
Curious, though. Why couldn't you land the helicopter? Seems to me if you can't complete the mission without one pilot incapacitated then you don't have redundancy in the least reliable system in the helicopter (pilot).
Matthew.
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Obviously Flying an S76 Offshoreigor! One of the unfortunate limitations of our beloved machine - cross cockpit landings on difficult helidecks is almost impossible.
I had a night call out for a medivac a couple of years back during a Typhoon in a SE Asian location where I elected to leave the rostered night Co-Jo ( Local Chap ) behind and took another experienced Captain with me, a decision I was very pleased I had made as we had to make two offshore landings - 1 for Fuel the 2nd to pick up the patient at another location both in extremely difficult conditions.
As a training pilot myself I have mentioned several times that I believe that we conduct insufficient night currency training at offshore locations, true enough it is often difficult to organise with distance and time being a big contributor to accept the option of training onshore at the airfield instead, but at the end of the day in the companies eyes it always comes down to the $$$.
Perhaps its time the Operations Staff consider the possibilities and conditions when rostering inexperienced crews for night standby.
I had a night call out for a medivac a couple of years back during a Typhoon in a SE Asian location where I elected to leave the rostered night Co-Jo ( Local Chap ) behind and took another experienced Captain with me, a decision I was very pleased I had made as we had to make two offshore landings - 1 for Fuel the 2nd to pick up the patient at another location both in extremely difficult conditions.
As a training pilot myself I have mentioned several times that I believe that we conduct insufficient night currency training at offshore locations, true enough it is often difficult to organise with distance and time being a big contributor to accept the option of training onshore at the airfield instead, but at the end of the day in the companies eyes it always comes down to the $$$.
Perhaps its time the Operations Staff consider the possibilities and conditions when rostering inexperienced crews for night standby.
I remember it being the some of the hardest flying I have seen. Light rain, pitch black/no moon, and a rough sea.
Felt like we were in outer space.
Igor: ask a certain rally driver we know about it. He has plenty of fond memories........
Felt like we were in outer space.
Igor: ask a certain rally driver we know about it. He has plenty of fond memories........
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Heedm:
As stated by Roaming Cyclic, I do in fact fly the venerable S76. And it is a bit of a booger to land cross cockpit. Try it sometime in the day, you'll be surprised. Add into the equation, night helideck, 14-18 kts of wind ( which would have been a tailwind if I landed) and you have the makings of a very interesting landing. I'm not one for practice bleeding so I got the other "Qualified Guy" in the back to do the landing, no biggy.
Steve76:
I can only imagine about Pooches' experience, it must have been a beauty! By the way, how's things in London?
RC:
Thanks for picking up on the S76. You must have "...been there, done that..."
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
As stated by Roaming Cyclic, I do in fact fly the venerable S76. And it is a bit of a booger to land cross cockpit. Try it sometime in the day, you'll be surprised. Add into the equation, night helideck, 14-18 kts of wind ( which would have been a tailwind if I landed) and you have the makings of a very interesting landing. I'm not one for practice bleeding so I got the other "Qualified Guy" in the back to do the landing, no biggy.
Steve76:
I can only imagine about Pooches' experience, it must have been a beauty! By the way, how's things in London?
RC:
Thanks for picking up on the S76. You must have "...been there, done that..."
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
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But surely, if a guy under training proves unable to land in the dark, he's been required to do night landings too soon? I would consider it a training deficiency to not pick up his inability, rather than the individual's problem? Not having worked in the Far East I cannot comment on any company pressures, so feel free to fill me in.
And I do sympathise with cross-controlled landings, as you can see from my handle..
And I do sympathise with cross-controlled landings, as you can see from my handle..
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Offshoreigor - can entirely sympathise with your predicament on the night, having also trained colleagues in the 76 for the same type of operation. Cross deck landings never a pleasant experience with the 76, though in the 'good old days' over the North Sea when we occasionally operated single pilot day and night, the following technique usually worked:
approach the deck crosswind (to improve your view), keeping sufficient airspeed on for a single engine go around if needed, and then as you slow down gradually let the aircraft turn into the prevailing wind coming over the deck so that you at least see enough of it for a hover reference. Sounds quite exciting but really does work (subject to under and overshoot paths), and by keeping the relative wind on the nose is actually just as safe as a conventional into wind approach. I'm sure you've seen it all before, so please don't think I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs. Others may not have tried this.....
I do have to admit though this technique doesn't work quite so well in the 757 I now fly.......!
Happy rotorvating.
approach the deck crosswind (to improve your view), keeping sufficient airspeed on for a single engine go around if needed, and then as you slow down gradually let the aircraft turn into the prevailing wind coming over the deck so that you at least see enough of it for a hover reference. Sounds quite exciting but really does work (subject to under and overshoot paths), and by keeping the relative wind on the nose is actually just as safe as a conventional into wind approach. I'm sure you've seen it all before, so please don't think I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs. Others may not have tried this.....
I do have to admit though this technique doesn't work quite so well in the 757 I now fly.......!
Happy rotorvating.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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LAFalot:
I know the technique of which you speak. Works great under ideal conditions, but, on theis particular platform there just are not the required visual cues. It's a bit of a bug-ger to see the deck even cross-wind. Not the greatest design. Throw in a light, tail heavy 76 and it gets pretty interesting. By the way, I've flown this great machine since '90 and have about 4500 on type and it still never ceases to surprise me!
S76Heavy:
I hear what you are saying, but, offshore night landings are a very unique skill. I have had many a senior pilot walk away with the need for a change of undies after a night session. So it is not neccesarily the experience.
I myself did my first DDL's (Destroyer Deck Landings) at night with only 75 hours on SeaKings and a grand total of 160 hours RW time.
Thanks to all for the responses, this will always be an interesting job!
Cheers OffshoreIgor
I know the technique of which you speak. Works great under ideal conditions, but, on theis particular platform there just are not the required visual cues. It's a bit of a bug-ger to see the deck even cross-wind. Not the greatest design. Throw in a light, tail heavy 76 and it gets pretty interesting. By the way, I've flown this great machine since '90 and have about 4500 on type and it still never ceases to surprise me!
S76Heavy:
I hear what you are saying, but, offshore night landings are a very unique skill. I have had many a senior pilot walk away with the need for a change of undies after a night session. So it is not neccesarily the experience.
I myself did my first DDL's (Destroyer Deck Landings) at night with only 75 hours on SeaKings and a grand total of 160 hours RW time.
Thanks to all for the responses, this will always be an interesting job!
Cheers
OffshoreIgor
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Night flight and training
Night: There's a lot of it about. Although the recent Night ops - is there a better way? thread indicates that night flying isn't necessarily good, it's something that I think it's good to have the ability to do.
So, I'm a doing a night rating. A search of the archives doesn't reveal much advice about night flying - with the exception of the thread this one's been merged into to prove my generalisation.
Would the panel care to share some of its wisdom?
edited to remove the (broken) link to the thread this has been merged into!
So, I'm a doing a night rating. A search of the archives doesn't reveal much advice about night flying - with the exception of the thread this one's been merged into to prove my generalisation.
Would the panel care to share some of its wisdom?
edited to remove the (broken) link to the thread this has been merged into!
Last edited by FlyAnotherDay; 1st Jun 2004 at 15:54.
It really is fun - just be careful!
The recent 2004 HAA Industry Conference in Australia had a night segment to look at night visual flying and flying with NVIS equipment. We were not knocking night flying – to the contrary. Just asking people to be more careful.
Night can bite.
As a past rescue pilot, I have probably flown more at night than day.
Lessons to pass on are few but important! Learn to interpret the weather forecasts correctly and when following your flight plan stick to it! If the weather gets ugly or you have to divert into an area you haven’t really done some map checking – you go home to your loved ones.
Not them to your funeral!
You must learn to say no! The hardest person to convince is yourself (ego).
Best of luck and enjoy cruising in the totally smooth air that sometimes is a gift to aviators.
Oh and a last tip! Get hold of a military text book which explains levels of illumination in relation to moon and stars. This reading may give you an awareness of the limits of the human eye.
Night can bite. But night is fun!
Enjoy!!
Night can bite.
As a past rescue pilot, I have probably flown more at night than day.
Lessons to pass on are few but important! Learn to interpret the weather forecasts correctly and when following your flight plan stick to it! If the weather gets ugly or you have to divert into an area you haven’t really done some map checking – you go home to your loved ones.
Not them to your funeral!
You must learn to say no! The hardest person to convince is yourself (ego).
Best of luck and enjoy cruising in the totally smooth air that sometimes is a gift to aviators.
Oh and a last tip! Get hold of a military text book which explains levels of illumination in relation to moon and stars. This reading may give you an awareness of the limits of the human eye.
Night can bite. But night is fun!
Enjoy!!
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If you're going to leave the confines of an airport or the illumination of a city, get an instrument rating.
On a dark night (overcast no cellestial illumination) over sparsely settled areas or over water; there is no such thing as Night VFR.
Its IFR period.!
With out the proper IFR training or aircraft equipment you'll scare the crap out of your-self or worse.
On a dark night (overcast no cellestial illumination) over sparsely settled areas or over water; there is no such thing as Night VFR.
Its IFR period.!
With out the proper IFR training or aircraft equipment you'll scare the crap out of your-self or worse.
You need to be an instrument flyer at night.
Worst case of the leans i ever had was at night. A navex to Double Island Point, at the end of a sparsely-inhabited island on a moonless night. We got to the turning point, and rolled into the turn. I then turned my head to look at the lighthouse on the end of the island and got the coriolis effect (?? some other effect? I forget) when two of the ear canals are turning and induce movement in the third.
I looked at the fingers of light rotating through the mist and felt like I was falling backwards out of my seat.
Only by locking onto the clocks did I overcome these intense feelings of falling.
As Cap'n Rich says, night can be fun - all the ugly bits of a city disappear into the black, the lights look like fairyland, and it is only when you wonder about where you will go if the engine goes on holidays, that it becomes scary.
Do you head for a lit highway? Do you land WITH the flow of traffic? Or against it? If you go against, the cars have the best chance of seeing you coming, landing light in the eyes and such, and maybe avoid you. But the closing speed is much higher.
If you go with the flow, closing speeds are less, but the traffic will not see you until you appear in their window, in the flare, and they are up your clacker at 60 mph.
Any ideas?
Worst case of the leans i ever had was at night. A navex to Double Island Point, at the end of a sparsely-inhabited island on a moonless night. We got to the turning point, and rolled into the turn. I then turned my head to look at the lighthouse on the end of the island and got the coriolis effect (?? some other effect? I forget) when two of the ear canals are turning and induce movement in the third.
I looked at the fingers of light rotating through the mist and felt like I was falling backwards out of my seat.
Only by locking onto the clocks did I overcome these intense feelings of falling.
As Cap'n Rich says, night can be fun - all the ugly bits of a city disappear into the black, the lights look like fairyland, and it is only when you wonder about where you will go if the engine goes on holidays, that it becomes scary.
Do you head for a lit highway? Do you land WITH the flow of traffic? Or against it? If you go against, the cars have the best chance of seeing you coming, landing light in the eyes and such, and maybe avoid you. But the closing speed is much higher.
If you go with the flow, closing speeds are less, but the traffic will not see you until you appear in their window, in the flare, and they are up your clacker at 60 mph.
Any ideas?