Night Flying and Training (Merged)
why would any one risk their life flying a fixed wing to the ground at night at over 100 kts?
Now thats crazy stuff if you ask me........but the helo operation you talk of is straight forward and presents no particular challenge to an appropriately night rated and experienced pilot.
No real issues here westy. And he has a twin to boot.
But I am curious why you ask here claiming that you are just interested, curious and want to know what other professional helicopter pilots think, yet have already contacted two regional CAA offices to question the legality of the operation. I guess that narrows the operation down to the UK, so perhaps a UK heli pilot would like to comment an the legislation surrounding this.
Now thats crazy stuff if you ask me........but the helo operation you talk of is straight forward and presents no particular challenge to an appropriately night rated and experienced pilot.
No real issues here westy. And he has a twin to boot.
But I am curious why you ask here claiming that you are just interested, curious and want to know what other professional helicopter pilots think, yet have already contacted two regional CAA offices to question the legality of the operation. I guess that narrows the operation down to the UK, so perhaps a UK heli pilot would like to comment an the legislation surrounding this.
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Flying a single-engine, single-pilot helicopter with only basic VFR instrumentation at night is not the same as flying a multi-engine, IFR capable helicopter at night. The crashes are almost all by VFR, single pilots who lose control and don't or can't use the instruments. Not all, but by far the vast majority. Night flight is safe enough, if done properly.
Helmet fire,
I'd suggest it's probably Germany, looking at Westwind's home page.
Still not sure what the fuss is about. They will need to operate to Performance Class 1 standards though.
I'd suggest it's probably Germany, looking at Westwind's home page.
Still not sure what the fuss is about. They will need to operate to Performance Class 1 standards though.
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yes 212 man, it is Germany, but does that matter? I want to know what the other JAR-OPS country think about it.
I get the impression that the strict JAR-OPS requirements are not observed the same everywhere. It's the same with JAR-FCL... no conformity, no harmonisation as was planned. Maybe the EASA will straighten things out, but at the moment?
As mentioned above, 2 CAA offices said no about the planned night flight... that's why I want some opinions of other countries and of heli drivers. Would YOU do the flight (flood lighting done by the fire brigade, courtyard big enough, no high buildings or such in the approach and depart area)? Would YOUR CAA give permission? I think the weather is going to kill the flight anyway, but I'm still interested in opinions about it.
Westy
P.S. I find very little discussion in Pprune about the pros and cons of JAR-OPS and JAR-FCL ... why? do you all think it's fine? (I doubt that and it would need a new thread to discuss that I think).
I get the impression that the strict JAR-OPS requirements are not observed the same everywhere. It's the same with JAR-FCL... no conformity, no harmonisation as was planned. Maybe the EASA will straighten things out, but at the moment?
As mentioned above, 2 CAA offices said no about the planned night flight... that's why I want some opinions of other countries and of heli drivers. Would YOU do the flight (flood lighting done by the fire brigade, courtyard big enough, no high buildings or such in the approach and depart area)? Would YOUR CAA give permission? I think the weather is going to kill the flight anyway, but I'm still interested in opinions about it.
Westy
P.S. I find very little discussion in Pprune about the pros and cons of JAR-OPS and JAR-FCL ... why? do you all think it's fine? (I doubt that and it would need a new thread to discuss that I think).
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Is the 105 still certified for single pilot IFR?? Westwind1950 hasn't told us if it's single pilot or 2 crew yet.
or why he's really interested i.e he's a passenger, he's going along for the ride or he's a NIMBY..
or why he's really interested i.e he's a passenger, he's going along for the ride or he's a NIMBY..
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oh you guys are soooo distrustful
single pilot... completely qualified and experienced pilot. I don't know whether he's IFR rated or not (I don't know everything!!). No, I'm not a passenger.... but why are my reasons so questioned? no, I have no intention of getting anyone into hot water.... consider the whole situation hypothetical. Like I said, I'm a fixed wing pilot (and instructor) and would love to fly heli's ....enjoyed a 3/4 hour lesson once...loved it.. too expensive for me and now I'm too old
Westy
single pilot... completely qualified and experienced pilot. I don't know whether he's IFR rated or not (I don't know everything!!). No, I'm not a passenger.... but why are my reasons so questioned? no, I have no intention of getting anyone into hot water.... consider the whole situation hypothetical. Like I said, I'm a fixed wing pilot (and instructor) and would love to fly heli's ....enjoyed a 3/4 hour lesson once...loved it.. too expensive for me and now I'm too old
Westy
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Night Flight
Westy
Just a couple more questions please.
1. How many crew are there going to be and what is the experience in Hours and Licence type.
2. Are you a fare paying passenger on this flight or is it a jolly into the night. Is this a flight that is being paid for by fare paying customers or not.
3. Where is the nearest airport with night facilities, and why cant you meet up there instead.
4. What is your agenda here on Rotorheads, as you seem very pushy with your questions... (Just curious - Not meant as an attack of any sort).
5 Why dont you start a thread asking the differences between JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS, giving us an insight into your Aviation knowledge.
6 Which 2 CAA offices have you asked, and if any of them isnt the German CAA, why not.
It would not really be fair to offer much more info, without a clearer picture of events. In theory, as the others have said, it should be ok, but without specifics it is hard to make an opinion.
MD
Just a couple more questions please.
1. How many crew are there going to be and what is the experience in Hours and Licence type.
2. Are you a fare paying passenger on this flight or is it a jolly into the night. Is this a flight that is being paid for by fare paying customers or not.
3. Where is the nearest airport with night facilities, and why cant you meet up there instead.
4. What is your agenda here on Rotorheads, as you seem very pushy with your questions... (Just curious - Not meant as an attack of any sort).
5 Why dont you start a thread asking the differences between JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS, giving us an insight into your Aviation knowledge.
6 Which 2 CAA offices have you asked, and if any of them isnt the German CAA, why not.
It would not really be fair to offer much more info, without a clearer picture of events. In theory, as the others have said, it should be ok, but without specifics it is hard to make an opinion.
MD
Aroma of Stinkbait here.....some fishing going on?
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@MD900 Explorer
sorry if I appear pushy, I don't intend to... I'm just not getting any clear cut replies!! (our postings seemed to cross).
1. I have no idea how experienced the pilot is... I only know he has been in the business a loooong time
2. It is, as I have already stated, a fare payed flight. Entertainers at an event want a transfer from a town that has no heliport to an airfield with night certification about 10-15 min. away where they plan to pick up a fixed wing flight (as far as I know).
3. I ask myself, too, why they don't just order a taxi or other transportation because of the probable bad weather... the above mentioned airfield is about a half hour car drive away, maybe 45 min.
4. Pushy? I hope not... I have often been here in Rotorheads.. I have a number of Rotorhead friends... sorry if I dare tread where I am not welcome, being that I'm "only" a fixed wing bloke
5. I have asked JAR-FCL questions before in private flying but it got no replies. I am familiar with the German version of JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS and I have the impression that they are handled different in the various countries. The implementation of JAR-FCL in Germany was a catastrophy!!
6. I asked at 2 different German CAA offices (Regierungsbezirke). Both said they would not give permission for such a flight. I had no time to ask any other offices but will perhaps on Monday.... just for interest. I just find it fascinating, that all of you say "go for it!" and yet the "authorities that be" say no....
I have been a pprune for a long time... I wonder that a serious question is approached with such sceptism... I guess I'll stick to JetBlast in the future...
Westy
sorry if I appear pushy, I don't intend to... I'm just not getting any clear cut replies!! (our postings seemed to cross).
1. I have no idea how experienced the pilot is... I only know he has been in the business a loooong time
2. It is, as I have already stated, a fare payed flight. Entertainers at an event want a transfer from a town that has no heliport to an airfield with night certification about 10-15 min. away where they plan to pick up a fixed wing flight (as far as I know).
3. I ask myself, too, why they don't just order a taxi or other transportation because of the probable bad weather... the above mentioned airfield is about a half hour car drive away, maybe 45 min.
4. Pushy? I hope not... I have often been here in Rotorheads.. I have a number of Rotorhead friends... sorry if I dare tread where I am not welcome, being that I'm "only" a fixed wing bloke
5. I have asked JAR-FCL questions before in private flying but it got no replies. I am familiar with the German version of JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS and I have the impression that they are handled different in the various countries. The implementation of JAR-FCL in Germany was a catastrophy!!
6. I asked at 2 different German CAA offices (Regierungsbezirke). Both said they would not give permission for such a flight. I had no time to ask any other offices but will perhaps on Monday.... just for interest. I just find it fascinating, that all of you say "go for it!" and yet the "authorities that be" say no....
I have been a pprune for a long time... I wonder that a serious question is approached with such sceptism... I guess I'll stick to JetBlast in the future...
Westy
@Westy,
sorry i couldn't understand your hard fingerpointing...
To ease you... I've made a lot of such flights, also in germany.
The company needs an approval from the local CAA that's right. They need a Twin, a night pilot and all the stuff according to JAR-OPS. May be they get some special restrictions, flying routes, altitudes by the CAA. But the CAA needs some real and serious reasons to refuse the approval. If the CAA doesn't have that reasons, i would talk to my lawyer and bring the whole thing to court. The described mission is part of the business in the helicopterworld and it's absolutely ok to perform such a mission. If M.Jackson or Mick Jagger, or any ex-president and of course their ordered helicopter companies could get such approvals, why should the CAA refuse the same to MR.X?
If the weather is ok, the landing site and obstacle situation too, the pilot and the ship according to law, i couldn't see a reason why not? The described mission is on the normal risk level, or other, could performed safe if well arranged.
I'm a rotorhead and i hate it, that a taxi or a plank should get our money and the client lose his time. Safe or unsafe? There is allways a risk in flying helicopters. If we try to lower the risk to the lowest level, we could only perform some sightseeing flights in IFR twins with IFR pilots around an airfield on day and phantastic weather. Cancel longline, EMS, off-shore, night flights, test and evaluation flights and the helicopter is dead. Is a car free of risks? The plank safer than a train?
We don't talk about cancelling parts of our business, we talk about the best way to perform our missions.
By the way, how many officers in the local CAA's in germany are
1. Helicopter qualified,
2. Turbine or twin turbine qualified,
3. HELICOPTER NIGHT QUALIFIED?
That's only the basics, how many of the poor officers have any kind of experience in such missions and night flying? Short, how many are able to give qualified and court proofed answers to such questions?
Ever seen the streets after a great event? Or only fear about the entertainer...
sorry i couldn't understand your hard fingerpointing...
To ease you... I've made a lot of such flights, also in germany.
The company needs an approval from the local CAA that's right. They need a Twin, a night pilot and all the stuff according to JAR-OPS. May be they get some special restrictions, flying routes, altitudes by the CAA. But the CAA needs some real and serious reasons to refuse the approval. If the CAA doesn't have that reasons, i would talk to my lawyer and bring the whole thing to court. The described mission is part of the business in the helicopterworld and it's absolutely ok to perform such a mission. If M.Jackson or Mick Jagger, or any ex-president and of course their ordered helicopter companies could get such approvals, why should the CAA refuse the same to MR.X?
If the weather is ok, the landing site and obstacle situation too, the pilot and the ship according to law, i couldn't see a reason why not? The described mission is on the normal risk level, or other, could performed safe if well arranged.
I'm a rotorhead and i hate it, that a taxi or a plank should get our money and the client lose his time. Safe or unsafe? There is allways a risk in flying helicopters. If we try to lower the risk to the lowest level, we could only perform some sightseeing flights in IFR twins with IFR pilots around an airfield on day and phantastic weather. Cancel longline, EMS, off-shore, night flights, test and evaluation flights and the helicopter is dead. Is a car free of risks? The plank safer than a train?
We don't talk about cancelling parts of our business, we talk about the best way to perform our missions.
By the way, how many officers in the local CAA's in germany are
1. Helicopter qualified,
2. Turbine or twin turbine qualified,
3. HELICOPTER NIGHT QUALIFIED?
That's only the basics, how many of the poor officers have any kind of experience in such missions and night flying? Short, how many are able to give qualified and court proofed answers to such questions?
order a taxi or other transportation because of the probable bad weather... the above mentioned airfield is about a half hour car drive away, maybe 45 min
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So there you have it Westy.
It is a perfectly normal piece of public transport helicopter flying, as far as your description allows us to tell. Lots of us have done this sort of job hundreds of times.
Helicopter night flying has its special hazards, but if the rules concerning such things are followed, the risks are low.
By the sound of it you do not agree, but you suggest you don't know much about helicopters ...........
It is a perfectly normal piece of public transport helicopter flying, as far as your description allows us to tell. Lots of us have done this sort of job hundreds of times.
Helicopter night flying has its special hazards, but if the rules concerning such things are followed, the risks are low.
By the sound of it you do not agree, but you suggest you don't know much about helicopters ...........
FWIW, this sort of operation as described would be quite normal and legal in Australia, with the only exception being that our Regs require a multi engine aircraft for night passenger carrying charter ops, plus an instrument rated pilot even though the operation would be NVMC.
But then again, we allow night ag spraying with fixed wing, too
But then again, we allow night ag spraying with fixed wing, too
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Night Flying
SASLess
My thoughts exactly. Maybe WestWind1950 knows Linda Lovelace 
WestWind1950
I guess your quote at the start of the thread was that you wanted an opinion. I believe that you have had the benefit of some of the most experienced Rotorheads in the world giving you an Opinion. What Clear cut replies is it you need here? 
As for the Pushy thing, i have three theories and here they are:-
1 You are really a journo and are pushing your luck.
2 Your cultural background and German nature precludes that people misunderstand your language translation, because of your language construction.
3 You state that you hang out on JetBlast alot. Which would also predispose you to being pushy, but then again i refere you back to 1 & 2
I guess it is like trying to marry into an italian mafia family. We stick together like mud, as it is a small industry and we are always looking out for each others backs. Enough journo's have tried their luck here, and been thwarted. So excuse us if we are just looking out for our fellow rotorheads backs. 
212man
I think nearly everyone who has quoted an opinion on this have echoed your thoughts. 
John Eacott
WTF? Now thats some crazy ****. 
MD
Aroma of Stinkbait here.....some fishing going on?
WestWind1950
sorry if I appear pushy, I don't intend to... I'm just not getting any clear cut replies!!
As for the Pushy thing, i have three theories and here they are:-
1 You are really a journo and are pushing your luck.
2 Your cultural background and German nature precludes that people misunderstand your language translation, because of your language construction.
3 You state that you hang out on JetBlast alot. Which would also predispose you to being pushy, but then again i refere you back to 1 & 2
oh you guys are soooo distrustful
212man
Still not sure what the fuss is about. They will need to operate to Performance Class 1 standards though
John Eacott
But then again, we allow night ag spraying with fixed wing, too
Now thats some crazy ****. MD
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MD
No, I'm not a journo.... and I'm not even German!
Born and raised in US of A! 
I only found a discrepancy between the answers I was getting here and in the heli crash thread (which was one of the reasons for starting this thread)... and of course the 2 answers from the "so-called" authorities (one of them a heli examiner!!).
I visited the site today... courtyard about 72 m x 29 m, approach and departure only possible from over the fire truck garages (2 stories high). During daytime, no prob, but at night? oh well, it was an interesting encounter with you guys! And yes, I can understand your support of each other... don't forget, I'm a pilot, too
Westy
P.S. and no, I don't "hang out" in JetBlast that much... too much "nonsense" going on there.... but once in a while, when I'm extremely bored, I do admit to seeing what's up... which is then usually a real "downer"
No, I'm not a journo.... and I'm not even German!
Born and raised in US of A! I only found a discrepancy between the answers I was getting here and in the heli crash thread (which was one of the reasons for starting this thread)... and of course the 2 answers from the "so-called" authorities (one of them a heli examiner!!).
I visited the site today... courtyard about 72 m x 29 m, approach and departure only possible from over the fire truck garages (2 stories high). During daytime, no prob, but at night? oh well, it was an interesting encounter with you guys! And yes, I can understand your support of each other... don't forget, I'm a pilot, too
Westy
P.S. and no, I don't "hang out" in JetBlast that much... too much "nonsense" going on there.... but once in a while, when I'm extremely bored, I do admit to seeing what's up... which is then usually a real "downer"
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Westy,
Given the size of the courtyard and the height of the obstructions around it, I'm not surprised that approval has been turned down by the German CAA. The Bo105 may be a twin, but its performance is less than lacklustre when it loses one of them - the remaining one just gets you to the scene of the accident or incident a bit quicker!
Other than that, the normal requirements for approval to operate to an ad-hoc site in the UK is that you require all that has already been mentioned by many of the other respondees, plus you need to get permission from the owner of the site (which I believe the fire department has given in this instance) and inform the local police.
In London, there are pretty rigid controls regarding where you can fly, particularly at night. Maybe there is something similar in the part of Germany you are referring to.
Although many of the guys have said that this is a fairly "normal" sort of flight at night, I think that the site you describe would normally only be considered for an EMS type flight. Fare paying passengers should be offered something a little less risky........
Given the size of the courtyard and the height of the obstructions around it, I'm not surprised that approval has been turned down by the German CAA. The Bo105 may be a twin, but its performance is less than lacklustre when it loses one of them - the remaining one just gets you to the scene of the accident or incident a bit quicker!
Other than that, the normal requirements for approval to operate to an ad-hoc site in the UK is that you require all that has already been mentioned by many of the other respondees, plus you need to get permission from the owner of the site (which I believe the fire department has given in this instance) and inform the local police.
In London, there are pretty rigid controls regarding where you can fly, particularly at night. Maybe there is something similar in the part of Germany you are referring to.
Although many of the guys have said that this is a fairly "normal" sort of flight at night, I think that the site you describe would normally only be considered for an EMS type flight. Fare paying passengers should be offered something a little less risky........
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flyer 43 is right.
Now that Westy has provided hard information, it rather changes the picture.
If things are as quoted, it might well prove difficult to do what you suggest within the rules. I am not saying what was planned was wrong (I don't have all the info), and I am not familiar with the German variations to the EASA/JAR rules.
If I was involved, I would be looking for another better nearby site, just from a general risk perspective.
If the German CAA did not give the flight permission, then I guess that is what the operator did anyway
Now that Westy has provided hard information, it rather changes the picture.
If things are as quoted, it might well prove difficult to do what you suggest within the rules. I am not saying what was planned was wrong (I don't have all the info), and I am not familiar with the German variations to the EASA/JAR rules.
If I was involved, I would be looking for another better nearby site, just from a general risk perspective.
If the German CAA did not give the flight permission, then I guess that is what the operator did anyway
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Night Flight
WestWind1950
Thanks for clearing up the questions and putting us straight on a few pointers.
I apologise if i was a little way off the mark, but there always has to be a starting point eh?
I guess it would have been more useful to the thread if you had of asked the question with all the facts to hand. This may have answered your question a little easier and saved conflict. Just my thoughts.
Safe Flying
MD
Thanks for clearing up the questions and putting us straight on a few pointers.
I apologise if i was a little way off the mark, but there always has to be a starting point eh?
I guess it would have been more useful to the thread if you had of asked the question with all the facts to hand. This may have answered your question a little easier and saved conflict. Just my thoughts.
Safe Flying
MD
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hi MD900 Explorer (and the rest),
and thanks to you for your openess... if I had had all the facts from the start, then I would have presented them. I think that in the future I'll ask such questions less "public" via pm
Westy
and thanks to you for your openess... if I had had all the facts from the start, then I would have presented them. I think that in the future I'll ask such questions less "public" via pm
Westy