Night Flying and Training (Merged)

[MD900 Explorer]

Night Flight

Westwind1950

You may be an instructor and a regulator with the LBA, but had you actually asked the question like you should have then maybe you would not have ended in such a discussion.

I think that in the future I'll ask such questions less "public" via pm

If you actually knew who to ask the questions to you would have succesfully achieved your goal, without asking Rotorheads for your opinion.

Safe Flying

MD

[WestWind1950]

good morning MD!!

and a regulator with the LBA

I'm not

If you actually knew who to ask the questions to you would have succesfully achieved your goal

that was my problem

thanks anyway

Westy

[MD900 Explorer]

Night Flying

WestWind1950

and a regulator with the LBA

Seems i am farting up the wrong tree here.... My apologies AGAIN. I swear i will shoot my informant....grrr

If you actually knew who to ask the questions to you would have succesfully achieved your goal

Seems like you knew that you had no clue

Maybe we should do lunch one day?
(I don't usully do this online dating thing...but i will make an exception this time? )

MD

[SASless]

Gosh, Crow at a Smorgasbord! Best eaten on a cold plate!

[tecpilot]

According to JAR-OPS 3 a not prepared and planned EMS landing site needs at night 2Dx4D, means round about, 26m x 52m. Therefore you can count that a well prepared night landing spot, observed by pilot and well arranged with fire brigade and crew, as described from westy, needs not more. A planned landing site (as on standard hospitals or factories) needs dimensions from 1,5xD + 0,25D safety on each side, means to a BO 105 round about 25m Diameter.

The courtyard is usable from dimensions

As obstacle situation is needed: a 8° degrees angle on approach and departure on the last 245m around the landing site.

But this rule is out of service in germany, otherwise nearly no EMS flights are possible, because nearly all hospital landing sites dont't according to this rules!

Therefore the old rules are still in service (up to 2009), with an angle from 16,7°.

Thats the situation. If you plan the FATO in the middle of the 72m distance and the garages are approx. 6m high, on the direct edge of the courtyard and into the approach sector, the field is to small.

But, i don't believe there is no free other approach sector to a fire brigade courtyard. Nearly all fire brigades have a training field or a soccer place. Also i'm shure there is a sport arena in the village or any kind of 245m free of obstacles grass field.

And: it's a questions who wants to fly. The CAA can allways give a special permission. If Eurocopter, the CAA himself or a well known VIP wants to fly... I have made certification flights with the german CAA to helipads, only allowed to twins, with a single engine helicopter, because the CAA officer was only single rated and needed some flight hours to hold his licence current (HO HO HO)

authorities (one of them a heli examiner!!).

They are all examiners! Because they do write the names of the examiners to the paper and they are in charge. Sometimes they don't need a type rating (helicopters) or a FI, they are checking out from the cabin or the middle seat, because they are CAA officers

[Thomas coupling]

Flyer 43: you don't need to inform the local police of your landing intentions. only the owner.

[JimL]

Tecpilot,

JAR-OPS 3 in the latest version is more specific than you indicate in your post; in the ACJ which contains the conceptual text it makes this distinction:

7 HEMS operational sites

The HEMS philosophy attributes the appropriate levels of risk for each operational site; this is derived from practical considerations and in consideration of the probability of use. The risk is expected to be inversely proportional to the amount of use of the site. The types of site are:

HEMS operating base; from which all operations will start and finish. There is a high probability of a large number of take-offs and landings at this heliport and for that reason no alleviation from operating procedures or performance rules are contained in the HEMS appendix.

HEMS operating site; because this is the primary pick up site related to an incident or accident, its use can never be pre-planned and therefore attracts alleviations from operating procedures and performance rules - when appropriate.

The hospital site; is usually at ground level in hospital grounds or, if elevated, on a hospital building. It may have been established during a period when performance criteria was not a consideration. The amount of use of such sites depends on their location and their facilities; normally, it will be greater than that of the HEMS operating site but less than for a HEMS operating base. Such sites attract some alleviations under the HEMS rules.

The recommended size for a HEMS Operating Site is given also in guidance (i.e. it is not a requirement):

IEM to Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d), sub-paragraph (c)(2)(i)(C)
HEMS operating site
See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) sub-paragraph (c)(2)(i)(C)

When selecting a HEMS operating site it should have a minimum dimension of at least 2D. For night operations, unsurveyed HEMS operating sites should have dimensions of at least 4D in length and 2D in width.

With regard to hospital sites; the Public Interest Site Appendix was written specifically with German hospitals in mind.

Jim

[tecpilot]

Hi Jim,

Germany doesn't have the latest JAR's. Still running on the first papers from 1999, fresh in national law. with more special permissions than Einstein could still hold in mind.

The whole new paperwork isn't in national law and therefore couldn't be official used.

It's impossible in Germany to adopt the latest versions in national law (Ohoooo!!!). This 80 mio inhabitants country doesn't have enough CAA officers.

Now with EASA the interest in implementing JAR's, IEM, AMC is descending to sub zero. The "public interest sites " isn't an official thing in germany. Why? Version 1 JAR-OPS 3 doesn't have "public interest sites" and the german law therefore also not! May be you can have an CAA officer who knows the term" public interest sites". But i wouldn't bet.

[WestWind1950]

@tecpilot

you're right... in Germany we still have change 1 even though I believe change 4 is out (or 5, or 6???). The problem in Germany: it must get PROPERLY translated into German and there's no money for the translation... among other things! We are so way behind it's pitiful.
Over 80%, if not more, hospital sites are not certified and don't even meet the requirements put out in 1969 (minimum space of 15 m x 15 m + 10 m safty strip around it)! So, either the hospitals have to build "proper" sites, or the pilots fly at their own risk. The biggest problem is, most (all?) of these hospitals have no money for putting roof-top sites up or enlarging their present sites.
One hospital I know has an elevated site with 16 m diameter... much too small for the present regs... but it's being flown to (a person's life is often at stake).

ooooops, we're drifting off topic. but I'm quite intersted in this topic.

Westy

P.S. it looks like the "authorities that be" are going to approve the above mentioned flight.......

[flyer43]

TC

In general you don't have to inform the local police, but it depends on where you intend to operate. The local police should be informed if operating to the site could cause disruption to local traffic

Thanks anyway

[tecpilot]

the pilots fly at their own risk

yeah, that's the way to solve the problems, the confusion and the lack of money and officers inside CAA.

Got the same answer some weeks ago, "we (the CAA) can't do the certification because of personal problems, but if you agree to hold the responsibility personally, do what ever you want. Hello, hello... if germany is on this level,why they need aerial laws?

[MD900 Explorer]

Night Flight

Rumour has it the flight has been authorised.

MD