Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects

[Daedal_oz]

Military award:

Salary =

ASLT 2LT PLTOFF $40,074 - 41,377
SBLT LT FLGOFF $42,680 - 47,395
LEUT CAPT FLTLT $50,732 - 60,522
LCDR MAJ SQNLDR $63,946 - 68,058
CMDR LTCOL WGCDR $89,866 - 92,803

Plus flying pay =

Completed less than 2 years $3 ,055
Completed 2 but less than 4 years $5 ,092
Completed 4 but less than 6 years $9 ,169
Completed 6 but less than 8 years $17,316
Completed 8 but less than 10 years $25,462
Completed 10 or more years $28,183

Plus Qualification and Skill element =

Disability - Colonel (E) and below $5,772

Then add subsidised housing, free medical and dental, covered by good super (well in excess of 9% legislated requirement for employer contributions) and compensation.

Four weeks annual leave plus two weeks flying leave. Travel allowance when away from base. (Tax free if you are deployed into a combat zone.) Sick leave as required.

No need to pay for type ratings or endorsements. Allowances to transition back into the civilian workforce (ATPL etc)

[trapezoid]

Subsidised housing counts for nought if you buy and live in your own house as many military people do with the ADF posting stability policy.

Free medical and dental only covers you and counts for nought if you have a wife and kids and want private health cover for the family.

Most of the big multi engine operators provide endorsement, IR, CRM, DG, HUET and sim training.

[dvhelicopters]

More info needed

Thanks for all the responses, I' am asking, cause my wife wants to return at home (AU) within a year. I have made similar research in the past, and received a few responses, even though never have made any research about wages.
Regarding the AFAP, I have called them once about the membership. I could't join because at the moment I am not an Australian resident.
Pertaing my flying experience:
I hold an ATP 3000hrs GOM, EMS, Charter NYC, Grand Canyon, etc.
How is the job market for the moment?
Any suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks in advance

[chopperpug]

Tis Alright Big Mike...have only been working commercially for 4 years. The industry in Aus is pretty hard to start out in...if you want a pay rise, they will just find someone else to do it for less. I am moving to a job where i will get the award however. Have now done my time at the bottom of the heap. Don't regret a second of it either.
I know guys that are flying the twins with 2000+ are on at least 60,000kAUD. So there is a good side.
But I think i get to do more actual flying..........

[BigMike]

Hi Chopperpug. It's fine to do the the first year at a learners rate, but your now 4 years in to it and your boss is shafting you while he makes plenty from your effort. There will always be someone willing to work for less, but a lot of the contracts will require an experienced pilot who should be at least getting the award. Your not doing yourself, or any other pilots a favour by now working for $25,000 AUD before tax.
If your working 72 hours duty a week then your employer needs to hire more pilots (give another bloke a start in the industry) If it's not viable for him to do that, then maybe the only reason he's getting work is because of low rates, and or paying his pilots peanuts.

I do understand the Oz scene a little bit.

This was on flood relief in the Kiwirrkurra area, Western Australia 2001

[chopperpug]

I totally agree Big Mike. The operation where i am is normally two pilots, however the other guys left a month ago because he felt that it wasn't busy enough for him. Since he left the flying has doubled. Talk about good luck huh? Anyway. While i realise that 25k is bugger all and that it will not help the industry if we all keep getting paid so little.... I do take into account that I don't have to pay for anything other than beer, and my loan repayments, with that money. If you add the accom., car, power etc all to it, I'm not getting too much under the award i don't think. (correct me if I'm wrong, but i think the award is around 40k for GA heli?) Also the company does look after me when I want something. They flew my parents all over the country side in our fixed wing, and I can take friends (i.e. cute little scandanavian backpackers) flying if i want. But as in all things my time here has come to an end, and there will be vacancies for two young guys up here next year.
Oh....and the rates we run up here are actually higher than most. But we still get our share of the work! Makes you wonder why some of the other guys are squeezing themselves so hard when people will pay the higher rate anyway.

[BigMike]

Chopperpug, have a look here:

http://www.afap.org.au/files/AV8BANS...0GA%20AFAP.pdf

Sorry mate. Your boss is doing you no favours at all. Have a good read of the award. This is the bare minimum you should be getting paid.
As you said, your boss is charging you out at a high rate, what's the excuse for not paying you a fair wage?

[Daedal_oz]

Trapezoid said:

Subsidised housing counts for nought if you buy and live in your own house as many military people do with the ADF posting stability policy.

Free medical and dental only covers you and counts for nought if you have a wife and kids and want private health cover for the family.

Nought?

Let's hypothesise for a moment.

Scenario 1: Say you have a young person two years from wings. They would be say a LEUT/LT/FLGOFF. Probably not married but looking to buy a home.

Salary package could be about $95 628 pa. This includes:

Salary and allowances: $67 430
Employer contribution to super $10 842 (I think about 18% of salary)

Home Deposit Assistance $13 788

Additional income needed to pay for equivalent housing $1179

Exemption from medicare because free health cover is provided $1011

Additional salary needed to purchase equivalent private medical insurance $1378

Scenario 2: Say you have a person who has been serving for about 15 years. LCDR/MAJ/SQNLDR. Married, a couple of kids. Lives in subsidised housing.

Salary package would be about $156 715

Salary and allowances $112 066
Employer super contribution $24 291 (23%)

Housing benefits worth $18 862

Health care benefits $1 496 not counting benefit of no-gap for the member concerned

Home deposit scheme available $13 788

(The first package counts one off benefits such as housing deposit. Subsequent years would be reduced but promotion and salary increments would increase the gross package accordingly.

The second package does not count the deposit assistance scheme. Yes, the package will be reduced if you live in your own home but we all make personal choices.)

Trapezoid, I'm sorry, I must have missed the nought bit in there somewhere. (Or are you just bent out of shape for some other reason??)

I am just going off to poke myself in the eye with a blunt stick!

[trapezoid]

D-OZ

Defensive??

Maybe not but you were certainly on standby with your calculator and lots of smoke and mirrors, bells and whistles etc.

Posting on Rotorheads from QLD makes me suspect that you are Army. You have managed to pull every molecule out of thin air that the rest of us take for granted to form the "package" that is sooo good. I talked about members who do not live in subsidized housing (as is largely the case) and the scenario you threw back at me was of a family living in subsidized housing???Do you put a dollar value on the air that you breathe and the water they let you drink?

Or maybe I am retired after 20 rewarding years in the ADF (with the utmost respect), have found something that suits me better and am just tired of compulsory PT, egos, mornos, dining in nights, BFAs, TOETS, "camping", TMPs, DP1 and the list goes on.

Maybe not.

Have a good day and an even better career.

BTW, posted at 0746 on a Wednesday morning, shouldn't you be at PT, morning brief or value adding to the ADF?

Trap

[chopperpug]

Either way you look at it though.....it seems like you boys get a pretty good deal. Nice aircraft, good work, although I don't believe you do as much flying as we in the GA world do, but hey, its about Quality, not Quantity isn't it??? ..... oh...and I can't imagine that you have to go through all the crap and work quite the hours we do, doing all the ****iest jobs just to get a start. But I'm not complaining. I could have joined up if i wanted too.

Going back up the thread a little..... there are us young guys (and girls) that are willing to scrub/sweep/clean/mop/anything to get to fly, but I take the point that they are becoming less and less of them willing. Everything seems to come to easy to a lot of people. I know a lot of people that aren't even willing to drive 3-4000 km away from their comfy lifestyle on the coast to get their first job...let alone when they get there live in a swag in the hangar and get paid 300 a week to be up at 530am everymorning sweeping, and be the last one to leave the hangar at night to make sure everyone calls in and cancels SAR, (When you cover three timezones, they come in pretty late) and then to be in the hangar to answer the phone on sundays to make sure everyone else can have a day off. After all...you aren't called a slave for nothing are you???
But it was also one of the best experiences of my life. The learning curve is huge when you have machines coming in every 12 days for their hundred hourlies, and given that we have 15, thats more than one a day sometimes, can't beat that for SOE time. But thats just the busy time of year. There was always plenty of lawns to mow, sprinklers to move, things to fix. I don't know anyone who actually made it through that slave stage in one piece that regrets doing it, however I do know a few that quit early on and whinge a lot. But where are they now???

(probably in a highly paid job with Normal hours and a life outside of work, oh, and not to mention something other than a shipping container to live in..... )

Sorry. I tend to ramble on a bit.

[trapezoid]

Good on you Chopperpug.

I was just querying some rubbery figures.

Trap

[dvhelicopters]

Info still needed please!

I was simply asking for wages, and job market in Australia. I haven't received any information yet
PLEASE?
Thank you all

[overpitched]

Alright DV alright keep ya shirt on

Withh 3000 hrs and the sort of experience you describe I will assume that at least 1000 of that is turbine (Very important here)

You could get a start in most general GA companies with approx starting salaries of between $40,000 - $60,000 depending on the companies. Places like Australian Helicopters, Jayrow, Heliwork being at the bottom end of the starting scale with companies like Helicopters Australia being at the higher end

You could tour to New Guinea if you've got the long line time with a start around $80,000 month on month off

The media is pretty much a closed shop, money's alright but not much flying.

In the south of the country there can be a bit of fire work around thru companies like Commercial or Heliaust usually on a casual basis with day rates starting around the $300-$400 + hourly rate for flying. Can be good money depending on the fire season.

There are permanent jobs around at the moment and with your hours you should be able to pick up some casual work in most of the capital cities if you do the leg work. Summer is generally a better time for that I think.

Now... Do you want me to write the resume for you as well ??

[Daedal_oz]

Trap said:

Defensive??

Not at all Trap, just wanted to correct the rubbery assertion you made in your previous post. No calculator was necessary as it's all in the public domain.

My mention of being bent out of shape was not in reference to your life experiences but in reference to your nickname. I do apologise if I have opened old wounds, old boy. Not my intention. Just wanted to let some of the youngsters know that there is a way to the good civilian jobs through the military if they are interested.

Chopperpug said:

Going back up the thread a little..... there are us young guys (and girls) that are willing to scrub/sweep/clean/mop/anything to get to fly

Good on you. I have nothing but respect for your determination to succeed in a challenging environment. I agree that the life experiences you get from this process will give you great memories and be a great character building experience. I wish you every success and safe flying.

[trapezoid]

Ah,

So it was all for the benefit of Chopperpug. In that case, my apologies for being such a cynic. BTW, use your own cliches!!

Lets tell the whole story then, shall we? True story Chopperpug, the military is a great way to get trained, I did.

But.......

It does take many years to get amongst the real money though as pay and especially the allowances are loaded heavily towards the long timers, you know this is true.

Last I heard the Return Of Service Obligation (training bond, if you like for civvies) was 10 years and counting although I cannot quote this accurately as I have been a long time gone.

Zoid

[Texdoc]

Fixed Period of Service is 7 years. Return of Service Obligation is presently 5 years. Should be on about 60k once you finish training.

[Daedal_oz]

Trap, you are slipping. No comeback to that correction of your 'facts'?

[trapezoid]

Doz,

Damnation, you've lured me into a trite response and I wasn't going to argue with you any more.

Can you read??

I believe that I said something along the lines of not being sure as I have been out of the system for a long time and therefore not stating 'facts'.

Can we agree that there is a ROSO and that training and working in the military is not just beer and skittles and that downsides do exist wherever you may find yourself?

I am aware that pay rates etc are available on the defence website but still find your $156K 'package ' a little hard to swallow.

Please don't reach for your calculator with a response, we are just arguing now and not contributing to the thread.

As you will recall, this started out with me disputing just two points of your original post .... that of the free dental and medical that only covers you and not your family.... and that of the housing assistance (DHA, TRA whatever they call it these days) that does not apply to those who live in their own homes.

Both issues are true. Your response tossed back a page of fluff that was never disputed in the first place.

Over....and out!

zoid

[Daedal_oz]

Trap,

Okay. Fair enough. You've had the last word. (But you were wrong.)

[LandOnePOBNone]

Trap - “Wrong.” Perhaps, but only in the minor details at worst. The basis of his/her posts is spot on.

Daedal_Oz - You should flag recruiting as your preferred next posting. We used to use the same justification 20 years ago for committing one self to the services long term – just the numbers have changed.
I had a great time in the service and it was good to me however it was a young persons game and still is. After you had reached ceiling rank, for most of us that was SQNLDR/MAJ/LCDR or perhaps one up from there, the flying dried up and that sparkling career lost it’s lustre. Once the days of quiet desperation flying the ‘chipboard bomber’ had set in, we all calculated our pensions, applied for all the jobs we could and counted down the hours until we could resign/retire.

Putting your SQNLDR/MAJ/LCDR package into perspective is important here and is something that Trap tried to do. Not too many SQNLDR/MAJ/LCDR are single without a family and can redeem the benefit of ‘free’ health care. Most SQNLDR/MAJ/LCDR who are long term posted in an area live in their own house, their partners demand it – there goes the value of the housing benefit. Super 23%, mmmm… If it’s true and there isn’t some very creative accounting here, I think the recently elected federal pollies who now get 9% might have something to say about that in the future.

So Trap was right, in reality you get about the same as the rest of us with that level of experience or greater.


Regards

LandOnePOBNone




Career Highlight – First Jindavik solo