Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects
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Enough is Enough
First, to the moderator of this site. To allow this kind of abuse to continue is against the terms of conditions stated by YOUR site on sign up. I am disgusted at the lack of MODERATING being carried out.
Last edited by pssdoff; 30th Mar 2004 at 03:27.
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Guys
This is all getting very personal. You can see I use my real name and therefore both of you know we have never met and thus I don't have an axe to grind.
Surely we can express our opinions without getting so vicious. Obviously all helicopter schools can not be brilliant, anymore than can pilots. If MB's school produced bad/ignorant students, I'm sure at least one CASA FOI would have picked it up.
If students have been ripped off, and remember there is usually 2 sides to a story, then give the other person a chance to air his opinion without getting too worked up.
Just my opinion as an outsider to all this.
This is all getting very personal. You can see I use my real name and therefore both of you know we have never met and thus I don't have an axe to grind.
Surely we can express our opinions without getting so vicious. Obviously all helicopter schools can not be brilliant, anymore than can pilots. If MB's school produced bad/ignorant students, I'm sure at least one CASA FOI would have picked it up.
If students have been ripped off, and remember there is usually 2 sides to a story, then give the other person a chance to air his opinion without getting too worked up.
Just my opinion as an outsider to all this.
Why not just whip them, out measure them, and quit bothering everyone else. Or you could take it to Just Helicopters.
Autorotate, you've made the mistake of sinking to their level, you're usually above that.
Autorotate, you've made the mistake of sinking to their level, you're usually above that.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: queensland australia
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just for the record i have never made a derogatory remark about mike becker or his company on this or any other forum, ever.
as for goony bird i can assure you that it is not my wonderful wife helen. not only doesn't she surf the net at all but she hasn't got a bad bone in her body and derides no-one, ever.
as for your remarks about the death of graeme strachan. well what can i say?? well done.
as i remember mike was doing a private pilot flight test at that time, he told me that himself.
our company has always welcomed every-one into this industry with open arms as we did for mike and jan.
as for my alias, any one who looked at my profile knows exactly who i am.
that's all i have to say. (at the moment).
graeme.
as for goony bird i can assure you that it is not my wonderful wife helen. not only doesn't she surf the net at all but she hasn't got a bad bone in her body and derides no-one, ever.
as for your remarks about the death of graeme strachan. well what can i say?? well done.
as i remember mike was doing a private pilot flight test at that time, he told me that himself.
our company has always welcomed every-one into this industry with open arms as we did for mike and jan.
as for my alias, any one who looked at my profile knows exactly who i am.
that's all i have to say. (at the moment).
graeme.
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I'm very interesting to see all this out in the open about Becker. My good friend went to fly there after they said in email about they could issue him with JAA license. It was not of course true. I was so fortunate that I decided to learn to fly in another place after Beckers would not answer properly my JAA questions.
Also I am told by many ex students that he exagerate very much the number of people he trained.
Always after arriving in country the expenses for living are accidentally more than told you by email. Then many extras charges are to be found. And if you displease them in any way at all they make up something for immigration to try to get rid of you at moment of finishing course!
Now, I think it's best thing to have all this in the open so people can make up their own mind.
Also I am told by many ex students that he exagerate very much the number of people he trained.
Always after arriving in country the expenses for living are accidentally more than told you by email. Then many extras charges are to be found. And if you displease them in any way at all they make up something for immigration to try to get rid of you at moment of finishing course!
Now, I think it's best thing to have all this in the open so people can make up their own mind.
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In SUPPORT of Becker Helicopters
Aren't Australians and New Zealanders just great for knocking the guy who busts his gut to get ahead.
What the f### does it have to do with the pathetic photographer from NZ how Becker Helicopters is run. Your facts are absolutely incorrect and totally picked out of the sky.....oh thats right, you write a freekin tabloid.....Are you in cahoots with some of those trashy magazines you're trying to emulate.
Answer those questions honestly. Cudos to Becker Helicopters – Mike and Jan, for not lowering themselves to your levels and giving you credence for your crap in this forum and many others. Why would they? Your accusations and falsehoods are just that. You try to hurt people that are doing incredible things for this industry - YOU'RE STABBING YOURSELVES IN THE BACK! Smarten up people, the industry needs all the help and support it can get, not backstabbing personal vendettas against people who don't even deserve it.
Find something better to do with your time, like address the pathetic levels of pay, the high level of cheating on maintenance, or what about beefing up the industry to encourage new direction in Australia so that the pilots can get decent jobs in decent machines and we don't have to IMPORT the firefighting machines and people that are sitting around in what should be “our” jobs.......no offence intended to the air crews who have saved much of our towns and cities.
Wouldn’t it be great if the 64’s, 61’s and K-Max’s were owned and crewed by Aussie’s or New Zealanders? We have a fledgling industry, we should be encouraging it, nurturing it, building it together instead of tearing down anyone who is trying to promote this industry. There is a bigger picture guys, time to get over yourselves!
And as for the people who are writing OTHER PEOPLES supposed experiences.... if they wanted it written they would do it themselves instead of you sensationalizing a web of fantasy tales that don't even have a sniff of the truth. I say there are two sides to every story.
You people need something to do with your time that is constructive,,,, oh maybe find out your facts and print them without bias!!!!! Or better yet, just leave Becker Helicopters alone as you would expect people to leave you alone to run your businesses.
If there is any body who has something decent to say about Beckers, don't hold back, this whole b.s. has been so one sided and we need to get some positive output to encourage the newbie’s into this industry, not out of it before they get in it.
AND WHAT IDIOT SUGGESTED SOMEONE PUT A HIT ON MIKE!!! Are you for real!?!
And who am I to say all this - I have been around this industry for a bloody long time, longer than Becker Helicopters. I rarely post, but I read a heck of a lot on these forums.
I am sick to death of small minded people doing their best to dump **** (no matter which direction) on this industry and the people in it.
What the f### does it have to do with the pathetic photographer from NZ how Becker Helicopters is run. Your facts are absolutely incorrect and totally picked out of the sky.....oh thats right, you write a freekin tabloid.....Are you in cahoots with some of those trashy magazines you're trying to emulate.
Answer those questions honestly. Cudos to Becker Helicopters – Mike and Jan, for not lowering themselves to your levels and giving you credence for your crap in this forum and many others. Why would they? Your accusations and falsehoods are just that. You try to hurt people that are doing incredible things for this industry - YOU'RE STABBING YOURSELVES IN THE BACK! Smarten up people, the industry needs all the help and support it can get, not backstabbing personal vendettas against people who don't even deserve it.
Find something better to do with your time, like address the pathetic levels of pay, the high level of cheating on maintenance, or what about beefing up the industry to encourage new direction in Australia so that the pilots can get decent jobs in decent machines and we don't have to IMPORT the firefighting machines and people that are sitting around in what should be “our” jobs.......no offence intended to the air crews who have saved much of our towns and cities.
Wouldn’t it be great if the 64’s, 61’s and K-Max’s were owned and crewed by Aussie’s or New Zealanders? We have a fledgling industry, we should be encouraging it, nurturing it, building it together instead of tearing down anyone who is trying to promote this industry. There is a bigger picture guys, time to get over yourselves!
And as for the people who are writing OTHER PEOPLES supposed experiences.... if they wanted it written they would do it themselves instead of you sensationalizing a web of fantasy tales that don't even have a sniff of the truth. I say there are two sides to every story.
You people need something to do with your time that is constructive,,,, oh maybe find out your facts and print them without bias!!!!! Or better yet, just leave Becker Helicopters alone as you would expect people to leave you alone to run your businesses.
If there is any body who has something decent to say about Beckers, don't hold back, this whole b.s. has been so one sided and we need to get some positive output to encourage the newbie’s into this industry, not out of it before they get in it.
AND WHAT IDIOT SUGGESTED SOMEONE PUT A HIT ON MIKE!!! Are you for real!?!
And who am I to say all this - I have been around this industry for a bloody long time, longer than Becker Helicopters. I rarely post, but I read a heck of a lot on these forums.
I am sick to death of small minded people doing their best to dump **** (no matter which direction) on this industry and the people in it.
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Jan n Mike,
Lots of people said lots of things good and bad about you and the company.
Would just like to state again that i had a great time while training with you. Probably too good a time and managed to drag it out for as long as possible.
I know your above all this so keep up the good work n keep smiling!!
chopski
Lots of people said lots of things good and bad about you and the company.
Would just like to state again that i had a great time while training with you. Probably too good a time and managed to drag it out for as long as possible.
I know your above all this so keep up the good work n keep smiling!!
chopski
Let us look to the exciting future
Our exciting future sailing on calmer waters.
I would like to thank all those who today joined together and decided to put aside their differences and withdraw their posts on this thread, following a misunderstanding about Australian schools and some training providers. We are working hard behind the scenes to get several other posts removed, however, time differences may delay this for a few days.
Allow me to offer you a friendly tip: Contributors to Rotorheads aren't fools and it's a big mistake to treat them as if they are. There was no 'misunderstanding'. There were clearly expressed, unambiguous and strongly held differences of opinion.
So you're 'working hard behind the scenes' to get people to withdraw critical posts? I'm sure potential students deciding where they should spend their hard-earned savings or large expensive loans will be most grateful to you. In this forum, we've always found a free exchange of views to be more helpful than cleverly orchestrated PR jobs. Perhaps neither you nor Mr Becker have noticed that, in discussions about Oz schools, there have been a number of complimentary comments about the Becker school. Most schools seem to take compliments and criticisms as they come, the rough with the smooth.
Personally, I would like to thank Neville Dawson, Mike Becker, Graeme Gillies and many other caring individuals who have helped us achieve a dignified outcome, in the best interest of our industry. Neville (Heli-Ops International) and myself have made a promise to each other to promote our industry in the best way we can in our specialised and different market areas.
Welcome to the forum. In your absence, Neville Dawson has been vigorously promoting the Australasian helicopter industry on this forum for years. And indirectly, by their helpful contributions to various topics (not just Oz/NZ topics), so have a large number of valued Oz contributors, and a valued but disappointingly smaller number from New Zealand. Can we assume you'll now be contributing to other non Oz/NZthreads? Or will you simply monitor the threads to try to ensure only a rosy picture emerges of all schools in your area of responsibility, and that no critical comments appear? That won't help potential customers make a decision, but perhaps that doesn't matter to you. Seems a bit rough on the schools which have earned their good reputations.
Interesting you should name Graeme Gillies. He played no part whatsoever in this discussion, but that didn't stop Mr Becker writing to me suggesting he was one of those behind the critical posts. And, although I didn't see the now-deleted post during the (UK) night, GG's protest suggests someone launched a personal attack on him and his wife!
To answer the question first posed in this thread, there are 23 schools in Australia and 14 in NZ. All are different and each will suit different people. Just as we marry different types of ladies and don't all buy the same cars. See a previous post on HAA offer to provide free a directory of schools in the Australasian area.
Directories are of little value save to provide contact details. They don't help potential customers differentiate between good schools and schools to be avoided. The value of threads which discuss the pros and cons of various schools is that people can read conflicting opinions and form their own views. Credit people with the intelligence to distinguish between objective comments and those motivated by personal animosity.
Further the original query asked about instructor training. It doesn't really matter where you train; there is a dreadful shortage of instructors in both Australia and NZ. If you are a CFI or a Grade 1, then stand aside because you will be rushed with offers of employment.
It doesn't really matter where you train? What a startling proposition! Perhaps the HAA area is unique? Everywhere else in the world there are good and bad schools, good and bad instructors, schools which give students a fair deal and schools which rip them off.
Future CASA legislation means the pending introduction of Safety Management Systems, which will create even more shortages of instructors in the long term. In Australia the average age of a pilot is 48 and an even worse figure is the age of an engineer about 54. So as these old farts retire (I am one); then the career ladder will have many empty holes in the next decade.
World Helicopter Fleet
The civilian helicopter fleet numbers about 26,000. Australia has 1,200 and New Zealand 580. By comparison the USA has 12,200, Canada 1,700, England 950, Japan 831, France 800 and Germany 700. Our nearby neighbours such as Malaysia and Thailand have about 80 each. China, only recently allowing general aviation to exist, only has about 130 machines. The first privately owned aircraft in China was an R44!
Australasian helicopter fleet
Over the past eleven years our helicopter fleet has grown from 649 to 1,200. SE helicopters by almost 90% and ME helicopters by 700%. Over half of the Australian fleet is piston engined. Robinson has 470 of which 390 are R22s. There are over 100 Bell 47s. We also have an expanding twin fleet. Most NZ machines are single engined turbines. Pistons are rare in PNG.
Rules of thumb.
Although helicopters make up less than 10% of the Australian fleet, we fly about 15% or more of the hours, mainly due to the mustering industry. Also, we have only 10% of the Register, but we have 20% of GA accidents – RW is double the FW rate, a fact that needs to be addressed. Private, agricultural and firefighting accident rates are very high – about three times higher than the charter rate. Mustering helicopters crash twice as often as charter operators. Surprisingly, the training accident rate is half that of mustering. Our SAR/EMS night accident rate is extremely high, based on hours flown, and was the topic of a recent HAA Conference at Newcastle, NSW.
RW twins come of age.
Due to the dramatic increase in number of emergency services, this segment has fared the best. (In fact, 700% growth in eleven years.) With over 80 twins in Australia and about 30 in NZ we have more twins than the military. There are about 32 emergency services in Australia and 17 in NZ. Many of these bases are upgrading from SE VFR to IFR twins with night capable search systems.
Greener pastures?
Without upsetting those helicopter operators living south of a line Sydney-Canberra-Adelaide, there has been a strengthening drift to the north. Although NSW has fewer helicopters than Queensland, they have more pilots. Cattle mustering and tourism is a growth industry and these are drawing more to the north. The Queensland government has targeted aviation training and maintenance as a political good thing and you only have to visit the Australian Aviation facility near Brisbane Airport, located near to the Australian Aerospace and Helitech complexes to see real development. Not convinced? Hire a car and drive to Redcliffe, Amberley, Oakey, Caboolture, Caloundra, Maroochydore and Airlie Beach and see what is going on everything is fresh, more vibrant and hope is in the air.
Fire fighting – hot and cold.
Victoria and NSW have vastly different approaches to fire fighting. The Victorians have long term contracts with a few operators and funds them to be on standby even when times are wet and soggy. This brings stability and maybe a higher level of training and readiness.
To overcome the vastly larger geographical area of NSW, the RFS has many contracted operators on standby who only get paid when things are getting hot! Although this enables a bigger coverage of the state at a lower cost, the down side is stability for a contractor and a lower standard of operation until the season settles down. (Pilots and crews have to be called in from other jobs.) We must not overlook the impact of these operations have on our bottom line. In two years the NSW RFS spent $168 million. Last season $100 million – 103 aircraft (20 FW) and $8 million in fuel, as an example. As a result of this many unviable operators were kept breathing by the fire season. Some even stretched their financial limits and bought more equipment in anticipation of a repeat this year. As the rains continue to fall, I wonder how many are taking stress medication.
Would you like to name those 'unviable operators' just in case potential students/employees don't realise the risk they'd be taking by embarking on training or moving to work with them?
Thanks once again to those who have rallied today, and may tomorrow's dawn bring you rays of sunshine and success!
Rob Rich,
President
Helicopter Association of Australasia
The Australian helicopter industry has an excellent reputation on this forum, thanks to the many regular contributors from your part of the world. I wonder if your efforts to stifle discussion, and your blatantly 'promotional' post, have served to enhance or diminish what the Oz regulars have achieved indirectly by their consistently top class contributions to a wide variety of topics.
You must have a very low opinion of the intelligence of potential recruits to our industry if you don't credit them with sufficient intelligence to distinguish between posts which contain reasoned, objective criticism and posts motivated by personal animosity.
Heliport
Moderator
I would like to thank all those who today joined together and decided to put aside their differences and withdraw their posts on this thread, following a misunderstanding about Australian schools and some training providers. We are working hard behind the scenes to get several other posts removed, however, time differences may delay this for a few days.
Allow me to offer you a friendly tip: Contributors to Rotorheads aren't fools and it's a big mistake to treat them as if they are. There was no 'misunderstanding'. There were clearly expressed, unambiguous and strongly held differences of opinion.
So you're 'working hard behind the scenes' to get people to withdraw critical posts? I'm sure potential students deciding where they should spend their hard-earned savings or large expensive loans will be most grateful to you. In this forum, we've always found a free exchange of views to be more helpful than cleverly orchestrated PR jobs. Perhaps neither you nor Mr Becker have noticed that, in discussions about Oz schools, there have been a number of complimentary comments about the Becker school. Most schools seem to take compliments and criticisms as they come, the rough with the smooth.
Personally, I would like to thank Neville Dawson, Mike Becker, Graeme Gillies and many other caring individuals who have helped us achieve a dignified outcome, in the best interest of our industry. Neville (Heli-Ops International) and myself have made a promise to each other to promote our industry in the best way we can in our specialised and different market areas.
Welcome to the forum. In your absence, Neville Dawson has been vigorously promoting the Australasian helicopter industry on this forum for years. And indirectly, by their helpful contributions to various topics (not just Oz/NZ topics), so have a large number of valued Oz contributors, and a valued but disappointingly smaller number from New Zealand. Can we assume you'll now be contributing to other non Oz/NZthreads? Or will you simply monitor the threads to try to ensure only a rosy picture emerges of all schools in your area of responsibility, and that no critical comments appear? That won't help potential customers make a decision, but perhaps that doesn't matter to you. Seems a bit rough on the schools which have earned their good reputations.
Interesting you should name Graeme Gillies. He played no part whatsoever in this discussion, but that didn't stop Mr Becker writing to me suggesting he was one of those behind the critical posts. And, although I didn't see the now-deleted post during the (UK) night, GG's protest suggests someone launched a personal attack on him and his wife!
To answer the question first posed in this thread, there are 23 schools in Australia and 14 in NZ. All are different and each will suit different people. Just as we marry different types of ladies and don't all buy the same cars. See a previous post on HAA offer to provide free a directory of schools in the Australasian area.
Directories are of little value save to provide contact details. They don't help potential customers differentiate between good schools and schools to be avoided. The value of threads which discuss the pros and cons of various schools is that people can read conflicting opinions and form their own views. Credit people with the intelligence to distinguish between objective comments and those motivated by personal animosity.
Further the original query asked about instructor training. It doesn't really matter where you train; there is a dreadful shortage of instructors in both Australia and NZ. If you are a CFI or a Grade 1, then stand aside because you will be rushed with offers of employment.
It doesn't really matter where you train? What a startling proposition! Perhaps the HAA area is unique? Everywhere else in the world there are good and bad schools, good and bad instructors, schools which give students a fair deal and schools which rip them off.
Future CASA legislation means the pending introduction of Safety Management Systems, which will create even more shortages of instructors in the long term. In Australia the average age of a pilot is 48 and an even worse figure is the age of an engineer about 54. So as these old farts retire (I am one); then the career ladder will have many empty holes in the next decade.
World Helicopter Fleet
The civilian helicopter fleet numbers about 26,000. Australia has 1,200 and New Zealand 580. By comparison the USA has 12,200, Canada 1,700, England 950, Japan 831, France 800 and Germany 700. Our nearby neighbours such as Malaysia and Thailand have about 80 each. China, only recently allowing general aviation to exist, only has about 130 machines. The first privately owned aircraft in China was an R44!
Australasian helicopter fleet
Over the past eleven years our helicopter fleet has grown from 649 to 1,200. SE helicopters by almost 90% and ME helicopters by 700%. Over half of the Australian fleet is piston engined. Robinson has 470 of which 390 are R22s. There are over 100 Bell 47s. We also have an expanding twin fleet. Most NZ machines are single engined turbines. Pistons are rare in PNG.
Rules of thumb.
Although helicopters make up less than 10% of the Australian fleet, we fly about 15% or more of the hours, mainly due to the mustering industry. Also, we have only 10% of the Register, but we have 20% of GA accidents – RW is double the FW rate, a fact that needs to be addressed. Private, agricultural and firefighting accident rates are very high – about three times higher than the charter rate. Mustering helicopters crash twice as often as charter operators. Surprisingly, the training accident rate is half that of mustering. Our SAR/EMS night accident rate is extremely high, based on hours flown, and was the topic of a recent HAA Conference at Newcastle, NSW.
RW twins come of age.
Due to the dramatic increase in number of emergency services, this segment has fared the best. (In fact, 700% growth in eleven years.) With over 80 twins in Australia and about 30 in NZ we have more twins than the military. There are about 32 emergency services in Australia and 17 in NZ. Many of these bases are upgrading from SE VFR to IFR twins with night capable search systems.
Greener pastures?
Without upsetting those helicopter operators living south of a line Sydney-Canberra-Adelaide, there has been a strengthening drift to the north. Although NSW has fewer helicopters than Queensland, they have more pilots. Cattle mustering and tourism is a growth industry and these are drawing more to the north. The Queensland government has targeted aviation training and maintenance as a political good thing and you only have to visit the Australian Aviation facility near Brisbane Airport, located near to the Australian Aerospace and Helitech complexes to see real development. Not convinced? Hire a car and drive to Redcliffe, Amberley, Oakey, Caboolture, Caloundra, Maroochydore and Airlie Beach and see what is going on everything is fresh, more vibrant and hope is in the air.
Fire fighting – hot and cold.
Victoria and NSW have vastly different approaches to fire fighting. The Victorians have long term contracts with a few operators and funds them to be on standby even when times are wet and soggy. This brings stability and maybe a higher level of training and readiness.
To overcome the vastly larger geographical area of NSW, the RFS has many contracted operators on standby who only get paid when things are getting hot! Although this enables a bigger coverage of the state at a lower cost, the down side is stability for a contractor and a lower standard of operation until the season settles down. (Pilots and crews have to be called in from other jobs.) We must not overlook the impact of these operations have on our bottom line. In two years the NSW RFS spent $168 million. Last season $100 million – 103 aircraft (20 FW) and $8 million in fuel, as an example. As a result of this many unviable operators were kept breathing by the fire season. Some even stretched their financial limits and bought more equipment in anticipation of a repeat this year. As the rains continue to fall, I wonder how many are taking stress medication.
Would you like to name those 'unviable operators' just in case potential students/employees don't realise the risk they'd be taking by embarking on training or moving to work with them?
Thanks once again to those who have rallied today, and may tomorrow's dawn bring you rays of sunshine and success!
Rob Rich,
President
Helicopter Association of Australasia
The Australian helicopter industry has an excellent reputation on this forum, thanks to the many regular contributors from your part of the world. I wonder if your efforts to stifle discussion, and your blatantly 'promotional' post, have served to enhance or diminish what the Oz regulars have achieved indirectly by their consistently top class contributions to a wide variety of topics.
You must have a very low opinion of the intelligence of potential recruits to our industry if you don't credit them with sufficient intelligence to distinguish between posts which contain reasoned, objective criticism and posts motivated by personal animosity.
Heliport
Moderator
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I wrote a letter of complaint to CASA, as is my right, to let them know how unhappy I was with the false promises that led to me enrolling at Beckers. CASA did not even do me the courtesy of replying. So I left it at that.
But CASA obviously sent a copy of my complaint to Becker and even though I was no longer anything to do with his school, he choose to vindictively pursue me with his speciality, a smear campaign of lies and falsehoods. Once all these lies started arriving at my new school I felt that I had no option but to write to CASA again to get this to cease and in attempt to refute all his lies and clear my name.
At least this time CASA replied. They acknowledged "a difficult working relationship" with Becker but other than that had no interest in it. They did however say that they would investigate my claims of inaccurate course materials.
I posted this thread about my treatment from Becker Helicopters solely because no one in CASA seemed remotely interested in what is going there and I think that people should get a fair view of things before committing themselves to spending $50,000 of their cash, life savings in my case, and then decide.
I never started out to denegrate the Australian Helicopter Industry but to show my side of things at a company that I was not happy with.
And my question is "Who regulates Becker's behaviour"?
I specifically asked if I could work in Australia on completion of my CPL(H). Otherwise I was going to go to the USA as they issue a 1 year work permit on successfully qualifying. So Becker wrote back saying that I could work in Australia, which is not true, and that swung my decision to go there. To me this is both unethical and immoral.
And now I see that the HAA wants this to go away as they are claiming it is no good for the industry in general and Becker Helicopters in particular.
Well I'm sorry. Perhaps the HAA should start thinking about what constitutes good, ethical management! Good pilots are not necessarily good managers. And perhaps this incident has been for the best to expose what is wrong in the industry and cause companies to think before "sexing up" their websites with inaccuracies.
It is interesting to note however, that most messages posted on this thread seem to reinforce the fact that there are problems with Becker's management style.
If false promises and inaccuracies are the "stock in trade" of aviation management and are used to further personal ambitions before benefitting the industry, then I am glad to have had a hand in exposing it.
I hope a lesson is learned by all concerned from this.
But CASA obviously sent a copy of my complaint to Becker and even though I was no longer anything to do with his school, he choose to vindictively pursue me with his speciality, a smear campaign of lies and falsehoods. Once all these lies started arriving at my new school I felt that I had no option but to write to CASA again to get this to cease and in attempt to refute all his lies and clear my name.
At least this time CASA replied. They acknowledged "a difficult working relationship" with Becker but other than that had no interest in it. They did however say that they would investigate my claims of inaccurate course materials.
I posted this thread about my treatment from Becker Helicopters solely because no one in CASA seemed remotely interested in what is going there and I think that people should get a fair view of things before committing themselves to spending $50,000 of their cash, life savings in my case, and then decide.
I never started out to denegrate the Australian Helicopter Industry but to show my side of things at a company that I was not happy with.
And my question is "Who regulates Becker's behaviour"?
I specifically asked if I could work in Australia on completion of my CPL(H). Otherwise I was going to go to the USA as they issue a 1 year work permit on successfully qualifying. So Becker wrote back saying that I could work in Australia, which is not true, and that swung my decision to go there. To me this is both unethical and immoral.
And now I see that the HAA wants this to go away as they are claiming it is no good for the industry in general and Becker Helicopters in particular.
Well I'm sorry. Perhaps the HAA should start thinking about what constitutes good, ethical management! Good pilots are not necessarily good managers. And perhaps this incident has been for the best to expose what is wrong in the industry and cause companies to think before "sexing up" their websites with inaccuracies.
It is interesting to note however, that most messages posted on this thread seem to reinforce the fact that there are problems with Becker's management style.
If false promises and inaccuracies are the "stock in trade" of aviation management and are used to further personal ambitions before benefitting the industry, then I am glad to have had a hand in exposing it.
I hope a lesson is learned by all concerned from this.
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Phred139 - Since your post still remains I will answer your comments. FYI I dont ever make posts without having documentation to back up what I say, suggest you remember that before making your comments above. Dont know you from a bar of soap and you obviously dont know me very well but didnt stop you from your tirade of abuse towards me did it.
Your comments against Graeme Gillies are totally uncalled for. He made no posts on the forum against Becker and yet you slag him off, and his wife for that matter. How do you explain that one.
You say that how Becker Helicopters runs his business is of no concern to Heli Ops, or any magazine for that matter. Well think again, in case you are not aware we are a trade magazine for the civil helicopter industry, therefore representing the industry and disseminating information to pilots, operators, manufacturers, regulators and more importantly STUDENTS and prospective STUDENTS worldwide. If someone is taking a student for a ride, ripping them off or making false promises, then its our duty to highlight this to protect the industry. Like it or hate it thats the way it is. We get emails all the time from people asking about schools, operators, aircraft dealers etc and we pass on our opinion or what we know and the student can then make up their own mind. Its the same with this forum.
Do I have a personal interest in the emails I get from people complaining about Beckers, Yes I do. The reason why, he misrepresented himself to a good friend of mine in HK, an operator who ended up giving him a contract to train their cadets. And unfortunately I was the one who helped them get the work and set up the meetings, something I regret very much. Capt Lai Hai and Mark Six know who I am talking about.
Will be interesting to see if all these new supporters that came out of the woodwork, nearly all of whom were created in a 15min time span yesterday continue to post or whether they just dissapear into the background.
Heliport - Thanks for the above comments. I think the Aussie and Kiwi industries have a lot to offer propesctive students from around the world. Its a unique and diverse world down here and you have your good and bad, as is the case in the USA, UK or anywhere else. I will always continue to promote the industries of these two countries because its where I live.
If I have any further comments on any issues will try and make them as professional as possible. Rotorheads is a great forum and from my side I apologise for dragging it into the depths of the sewer on this thread.
Autorotate.
Your comments against Graeme Gillies are totally uncalled for. He made no posts on the forum against Becker and yet you slag him off, and his wife for that matter. How do you explain that one.
You say that how Becker Helicopters runs his business is of no concern to Heli Ops, or any magazine for that matter. Well think again, in case you are not aware we are a trade magazine for the civil helicopter industry, therefore representing the industry and disseminating information to pilots, operators, manufacturers, regulators and more importantly STUDENTS and prospective STUDENTS worldwide. If someone is taking a student for a ride, ripping them off or making false promises, then its our duty to highlight this to protect the industry. Like it or hate it thats the way it is. We get emails all the time from people asking about schools, operators, aircraft dealers etc and we pass on our opinion or what we know and the student can then make up their own mind. Its the same with this forum.
Do I have a personal interest in the emails I get from people complaining about Beckers, Yes I do. The reason why, he misrepresented himself to a good friend of mine in HK, an operator who ended up giving him a contract to train their cadets. And unfortunately I was the one who helped them get the work and set up the meetings, something I regret very much. Capt Lai Hai and Mark Six know who I am talking about.
Will be interesting to see if all these new supporters that came out of the woodwork, nearly all of whom were created in a 15min time span yesterday continue to post or whether they just dissapear into the background.
Heliport - Thanks for the above comments. I think the Aussie and Kiwi industries have a lot to offer propesctive students from around the world. Its a unique and diverse world down here and you have your good and bad, as is the case in the USA, UK or anywhere else. I will always continue to promote the industries of these two countries because its where I live.
If I have any further comments on any issues will try and make them as professional as possible. Rotorheads is a great forum and from my side I apologise for dragging it into the depths of the sewer on this thread.
Autorotate.
Last edited by Autorotate; 30th Mar 2004 at 19:19.
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....don’t start me on the HAA.
Take a look from half way down page 11 of this merged thread to refresh your memory.
I think those comments generally reflect how professional pilots think the HAA fits into the Australian helicopter scene.
Take a look from half way down page 11 of this merged thread to refresh your memory.
I think those comments generally reflect how professional pilots think the HAA fits into the Australian helicopter scene.
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I would love to reply
I would love to dish the dirt right back at you, but I won't as per requests above.
In the interest of laying all this to rest, I will say good luck in reporting unbiased facts and stories in your publication.
I wish good luck to everyone involved in this whole mess. May we all make the industry a better/ safer/ more successful place and learn to work in harmony for that cause.
In the interest of laying all this to rest, I will say good luck in reporting unbiased facts and stories in your publication.
I wish good luck to everyone involved in this whole mess. May we all make the industry a better/ safer/ more successful place and learn to work in harmony for that cause.
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Phred139 - Go ahead and dish the dirt if it relates to Beckers, either for or against them. The issue here is not about me or my magazine, its about the way certain schools do business and represent themselves which reflects on the aussie helo industry. Like it or not, we have a duty to either promote or warn people about places before they spend their hard earned cash.
If the dirt you speak of relates to me, then not really bothered by it. I have pissed off a lot of people over the years, both for realistic reasons and perceived reasons, but that comes with the territory.
Autorotate.
If the dirt you speak of relates to me, then not really bothered by it. I have pissed off a lot of people over the years, both for realistic reasons and perceived reasons, but that comes with the territory.
Autorotate.
Last edited by Autorotate; 31st Mar 2004 at 00:03.
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Moderator or Agitator
In response to the Moderator stepping into the fray...
The Moderator states:
... There were clearly expressed, unambiguous and strongly held differences of opinion
...Most schools seem to take compliments and criticisms as they come, the rough with the smooth...
...GG's protest suggests someone launched a personal attack on him and his wife!
...Credit people with the intelligence to distinguish between objective comments and those motivated by personal animosity.
Critism and discussion is fine... but the posts - many of them now removed - where not critism but personal attacks - they were crude, abusive, inflammatory and just plain wrong... as many have since acknowledged. That you did nothing to stem the tide of the abuse is in my view failing in the role of moderator.
Now you add your own views, when people are trying to 'calm the waters' - you in effect ridicule a post! HOW DARE YOU?
Credit us with the intelligence to interpret Rob Rich's post, its intent, its PR value - Without you wading into the fray with what becomes obvious is your own biased opinion.
You express outrage that someone would launch a personal attack on GG and his wife? But previously remained silent at the abuse that proceeded which were much more ficious and numerous - that apparently was not offensive to you... ?
This site, as you state, is about the free exchange of ideas...
your sites own terms and conditions state that the harrassment and personal attacks are not allowed... Your action, or actually your lack of it up until now riducules your own statement and the principles of this site.
I am signing off and have made myself a promise not to return to this site for some time... it makes me too mad!
To the rest... safe flying!
The Moderator states:
... There were clearly expressed, unambiguous and strongly held differences of opinion
...Most schools seem to take compliments and criticisms as they come, the rough with the smooth...
...GG's protest suggests someone launched a personal attack on him and his wife!
...Credit people with the intelligence to distinguish between objective comments and those motivated by personal animosity.
Critism and discussion is fine... but the posts - many of them now removed - where not critism but personal attacks - they were crude, abusive, inflammatory and just plain wrong... as many have since acknowledged. That you did nothing to stem the tide of the abuse is in my view failing in the role of moderator.
Now you add your own views, when people are trying to 'calm the waters' - you in effect ridicule a post! HOW DARE YOU?
Credit us with the intelligence to interpret Rob Rich's post, its intent, its PR value - Without you wading into the fray with what becomes obvious is your own biased opinion.
You express outrage that someone would launch a personal attack on GG and his wife? But previously remained silent at the abuse that proceeded which were much more ficious and numerous - that apparently was not offensive to you... ?
This site, as you state, is about the free exchange of ideas...
your sites own terms and conditions state that the harrassment and personal attacks are not allowed... Your action, or actually your lack of it up until now riducules your own statement and the principles of this site.
I am signing off and have made myself a promise not to return to this site for some time... it makes me too mad!
To the rest... safe flying!
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pssdoff
Please yourself. Since this is only your second post, your departure isn't going to make any difference to the worldwide success of this forum.
It appears that there were some extremely unpleasant attacks during last night (UK time) on Oz contributors who were not part of, and had taken no part whatsoever in the discussions. I'm pleased they were removed before I logged on this morning. If they hadn't been, I would have removed them myself.
I'm not going to waste time answering your distortions and inaccurate assertions. Your allegation of bias is absurd. Perhaps it's escaped your notice that I'm based on the other side of the world from the protagonists. You have no reason to know (but I'll tell you) that I have never (yet) set foot in Oz, don't know any of the people involved, and they're all just 'names' to me. Unlike you, I have no reason whatsoever to take sides.
Heliport
Please yourself. Since this is only your second post, your departure isn't going to make any difference to the worldwide success of this forum.
It appears that there were some extremely unpleasant attacks during last night (UK time) on Oz contributors who were not part of, and had taken no part whatsoever in the discussions. I'm pleased they were removed before I logged on this morning. If they hadn't been, I would have removed them myself.
I'm not going to waste time answering your distortions and inaccurate assertions. Your allegation of bias is absurd. Perhaps it's escaped your notice that I'm based on the other side of the world from the protagonists. You have no reason to know (but I'll tell you) that I have never (yet) set foot in Oz, don't know any of the people involved, and they're all just 'names' to me. Unlike you, I have no reason whatsoever to take sides.
Heliport
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International CPL(H) students in Australia
I received the below email from Becker helicopters. Problem was I followed the given instructions regarding visa. I quote: Simply apply yourself and your spouse a "tourist visa" or "visitor's visa"
which is valid for three months. Upon arriving at the school we will organise the paperwork for you and your spouse to remain in Australia on a study visa. This visa is valid of 12 months. The forms here at the school will include info for your spouse.
On arrival in Australia I found out a student visa had to be applied for offshore. 6wk waiting list. I then realised the calibre of the school I was applying to and went to another. Needless to say I was psssdoff.
Don't be naive. Visit Australian immigration www.immi.gov.au
From : Becker Helicopters <[email protected]>
Sent : 10 October 2002 04:33:53
To :
Subject : Becker Helicopters
| | | Inbox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment : winmail.dat (4 KB)
Great to talk to you this morning. Here's some info about what we were
discussing which I hope will help.
VISAS
Simply apply yourself and your spouse a "tourist visa" or "visitor's visa"
which is valid for three months. Upon arriving at the school we will
organise the paperwork for you and your spouse to remain in Australia on a
study visa. This visa is valid of 12 months. The forms here at the school
will include info for your spouse.
REAL ESTATE
You will need to budget about AUD $240-$350 per week for a two bedroom
accommodation. I suggest logging onto the Professionals website (Realtor)
for other helpful info on rental properties. The address is
www.professionals.com.au/maroochydore When you arrive here we are happy to
set you up in a temporary in accommodation at a local motel, located close
to the school. Once here you'll have the opportunity to visit the real
estate agents and hopefully by the time you arrive we may have some listings
for you to see. Let us know more of your accommodation requirements closer
to the time.
FOOD AND LIVING EXPENSES
Generally, food costs is a little less than in England. Milk is approx AUD
$2-3 for 2 litres of milk. Bread is approx AUD $1.90-$2.30 a loaf. If
you're looking for a car, a resonable car will set you back about $5-6,000.
Depending on the condition. On top there is registration and insurance.
Approx AUD $500. But please email us closer to the time you will be
arriving about car prices. As well, there is usually someone here at the
school who wants to sell their vehicle.
Well I hope I've been able to help you with some of the information. Please
don't hesitate to email any questions. If I can't answer I'll get someone
here who can.
All the best.
Regards
Maraina Waaka
BUSINESS MANAGER
which is valid for three months. Upon arriving at the school we will organise the paperwork for you and your spouse to remain in Australia on a study visa. This visa is valid of 12 months. The forms here at the school will include info for your spouse.
On arrival in Australia I found out a student visa had to be applied for offshore. 6wk waiting list. I then realised the calibre of the school I was applying to and went to another. Needless to say I was psssdoff.
Don't be naive. Visit Australian immigration www.immi.gov.au
From : Becker Helicopters <[email protected]>
Sent : 10 October 2002 04:33:53
To :
Subject : Becker Helicopters
| | | Inbox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment : winmail.dat (4 KB)
Great to talk to you this morning. Here's some info about what we were
discussing which I hope will help.
VISAS
Simply apply yourself and your spouse a "tourist visa" or "visitor's visa"
which is valid for three months. Upon arriving at the school we will
organise the paperwork for you and your spouse to remain in Australia on a
study visa. This visa is valid of 12 months. The forms here at the school
will include info for your spouse.
REAL ESTATE
You will need to budget about AUD $240-$350 per week for a two bedroom
accommodation. I suggest logging onto the Professionals website (Realtor)
for other helpful info on rental properties. The address is
www.professionals.com.au/maroochydore When you arrive here we are happy to
set you up in a temporary in accommodation at a local motel, located close
to the school. Once here you'll have the opportunity to visit the real
estate agents and hopefully by the time you arrive we may have some listings
for you to see. Let us know more of your accommodation requirements closer
to the time.
FOOD AND LIVING EXPENSES
Generally, food costs is a little less than in England. Milk is approx AUD
$2-3 for 2 litres of milk. Bread is approx AUD $1.90-$2.30 a loaf. If
you're looking for a car, a resonable car will set you back about $5-6,000.
Depending on the condition. On top there is registration and insurance.
Approx AUD $500. But please email us closer to the time you will be
arriving about car prices. As well, there is usually someone here at the
school who wants to sell their vehicle.
Well I hope I've been able to help you with some of the information. Please
don't hesitate to email any questions. If I can't answer I'll get someone
here who can.
All the best.
Regards
Maraina Waaka
BUSINESS MANAGER
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The last 24 hours or so on this thread has gotta be the nastiest, most pathetic, disgraceful over-reaction to crticism I've ever seen on Prune.
There's nothing new about posts praising and slagging off schools, the business practices of certain school owners, complaints by students they've been ripped off and advising other folk to steer clear. If people ask for advice on a forum like this they get told the bottom line, good and bad. Some people say a school's good, then others say they didn't think so. Some say they had a good deal then others say they got ripped off. People looking for a school have to make their own minds up whether the bad stuff is kosher or grudge time.
It's not the first time in this forum and it happens every week in the Wannabee and f/w Pro training forums. Usually it's about fixed-wing schools in Florida who target the British market and make promises to international students they can't or don't deliver when the student arrives, misleading or downright dishonest assurances about visas and jobs and so on.
I've seen schools ignore bad posts.
I've seen schools come back with their side of the argument.
But I've NEVER EVER see the owner of a school that's been criticised come back with nasty bullying personal attacks on people, even on people who hadn't said anything and even on someone's wife, like Becker and his friends have done here. IF they are 'friends' that is. Funny how all the nasty stuff was from people that registered the same time and said the same sort of nasty things.
And I've NEVER seen any school that's been criticised start attacking competitors who've done nothing.
I'd never even heard of the Becker school until these past few days and I'm not looking to do any training at my age, but I sure as hell wouldn't go within a mile of the Becker school if I needed training. NOT because of anything anyone else has said, but because of the behaviour of Becker himself and his 'supporters' on this thread.
If this is how Becker behaves when someone upsets him, I pity any student who gets on the wrong side of him. Someone like that wouldn't get one cent of my money.
Mr Becker.
If anyone had any doubts about the way you treat people who get on the wrong side of you, you removed it. Some folks say you try to get revenge on anyone who crosses you and that's exactly what youve done here.
They say you can smooth talk when you want to. Well, your later "let's all be friends" bullsh1t ain't working with me. You showed your true colors and it's too late to put them back in the box now.
I'm real pleased you don't plan to post in this forum again. It's a great talking shop for professional helo pilots from different cultures and countries all over the world to swop thoughts and ask each others opinions about something and nothing. We try to help each other and we try to help beginners trying to get into our industry. Most of all, it's a happy friendly community of swell people where folk can disagree without getting nasty. You wouldn't fit in.
My advice to anyone before they commit to any school anywhere in the world, especially international students is:
Do NOT make decisions on the basis of slick brochures. Some of the best schools have poor brochures and some of the worst have fine glossy creations.
Do NOT be taken in by slick sales patter. Good sales people and good pilots/Flight Instructors are often different animals.
Do NOT take what schools say about visas. Check what they say with the relevant government department to see if it's true.
Do NOT pay any attention to hints or promises of work at the end of your course. Unless work is guaranteed in writing, promises aren't worth anything.
Do your own research. Names of former students provided by the schools aren't worth much. They're not going to give you names of dissatisfied customers.
If you're an international student going to a new country to do your training, check out what the natives say. There's good and bad everywhere but the helicopter world is small and the locals will know where's good and where to avoid, who you can trust and who you can't. Check out what people say on a forum like this which has knowedgeable people from all over the world. If one person says good or bad, it's not worth much but if there's a few responses look for the general view, and read between the lines.
There's nothing new about posts praising and slagging off schools, the business practices of certain school owners, complaints by students they've been ripped off and advising other folk to steer clear. If people ask for advice on a forum like this they get told the bottom line, good and bad. Some people say a school's good, then others say they didn't think so. Some say they had a good deal then others say they got ripped off. People looking for a school have to make their own minds up whether the bad stuff is kosher or grudge time.
It's not the first time in this forum and it happens every week in the Wannabee and f/w Pro training forums. Usually it's about fixed-wing schools in Florida who target the British market and make promises to international students they can't or don't deliver when the student arrives, misleading or downright dishonest assurances about visas and jobs and so on.
I've seen schools ignore bad posts.
I've seen schools come back with their side of the argument.
But I've NEVER EVER see the owner of a school that's been criticised come back with nasty bullying personal attacks on people, even on people who hadn't said anything and even on someone's wife, like Becker and his friends have done here. IF they are 'friends' that is. Funny how all the nasty stuff was from people that registered the same time and said the same sort of nasty things.
And I've NEVER seen any school that's been criticised start attacking competitors who've done nothing.
I'd never even heard of the Becker school until these past few days and I'm not looking to do any training at my age, but I sure as hell wouldn't go within a mile of the Becker school if I needed training. NOT because of anything anyone else has said, but because of the behaviour of Becker himself and his 'supporters' on this thread.
If this is how Becker behaves when someone upsets him, I pity any student who gets on the wrong side of him. Someone like that wouldn't get one cent of my money.
Mr Becker.
If anyone had any doubts about the way you treat people who get on the wrong side of you, you removed it. Some folks say you try to get revenge on anyone who crosses you and that's exactly what youve done here.
They say you can smooth talk when you want to. Well, your later "let's all be friends" bullsh1t ain't working with me. You showed your true colors and it's too late to put them back in the box now.
I'm real pleased you don't plan to post in this forum again. It's a great talking shop for professional helo pilots from different cultures and countries all over the world to swop thoughts and ask each others opinions about something and nothing. We try to help each other and we try to help beginners trying to get into our industry. Most of all, it's a happy friendly community of swell people where folk can disagree without getting nasty. You wouldn't fit in.
My advice to anyone before they commit to any school anywhere in the world, especially international students is:
Do NOT make decisions on the basis of slick brochures. Some of the best schools have poor brochures and some of the worst have fine glossy creations.
Do NOT be taken in by slick sales patter. Good sales people and good pilots/Flight Instructors are often different animals.
Do NOT take what schools say about visas. Check what they say with the relevant government department to see if it's true.
Do NOT pay any attention to hints or promises of work at the end of your course. Unless work is guaranteed in writing, promises aren't worth anything.
Do your own research. Names of former students provided by the schools aren't worth much. They're not going to give you names of dissatisfied customers.
If you're an international student going to a new country to do your training, check out what the natives say. There's good and bad everywhere but the helicopter world is small and the locals will know where's good and where to avoid, who you can trust and who you can't. Check out what people say on a forum like this which has knowedgeable people from all over the world. If one person says good or bad, it's not worth much but if there's a few responses look for the general view, and read between the lines.
Last edited by Bronx; 31st Mar 2004 at 16:00.