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L3 Harris, the final shafting

Old 12th Oct 2020, 16:39
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1
glush you don’t know what you’re talking about. Research properly what these cadets signed up to and you’ll see it was pretty obvious that an offer was ‘only’ dependent on their ability to pass training, no caveats alluding to anything business related.

I wish them all the best.
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Old 13th Oct 2020, 22:05
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wandsworth
Posts: 173
Doesn't really matter if there weren't any caveats. A layman's view but this was a conditional contract, trainees weren't actually employees (BALPA words), all contracts like this generally have Force Majure clauses and if they don't, the doctrine of contractual frustration could still be brought up as a defence against any claim by the trainee pilot given COVID19. I imagine one or the other has ensured L3 and EasyJet remain completely free of any obligation. It comes as no surprise that despite a lot of uproar, there is still no progression of any legal kind against this situation and I doubt there ever will be sadly.

I wish them the best too, many future pilots will re-consider if what they are signing is really worth anything in future, but that's what it appears like.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 07:17
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Athens
Posts: 8
I'm not sure when this crisis has passed that anyone will be able to raise a loan to fund one of these training courses. Surely all those caught short by what's just happened must be considering a personal bankruptcy against their debt?
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 10:58
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: From UK
Posts: 59
Terribly sad situation for all involved.

Hopefully though, it will encourage people in the future, when the economy improves, to ensure that they don't risk silly sums of money like these by paying massive sums up-front.


Don't most people who take out loans secure them against their (or, more likely, their parents) houses? If that's the case, bankruptcy certainly wouldn't help.
I actually know one guy who's desperately scrambling to find a job, any job, to repay his parents' mortgage. I can't imagine he's alone in doing that with basically no prospect of finding an aviation job in the next few years.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 11:40
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 39
Did any of these people not just take a moment to actually consider these consequences?
Field Required is online now  
Old 19th Oct 2020, 11:54
  #86 (permalink)  
PFD
Ground instructor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 70
I expect they just thought that a company that has just paid its shareholders half a million dollars, wouldn’t shaft them financially.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. What they really don’t need is condescension at this moment in time.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 12:45
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 39
Since beyond 2005 people on here have been pleading with people to take a moment to think about what they are getting into with integrated schemes. It's not exactly new science. It should never have been permitted in the first place.
You can't use a shareholder payout as the basis for risk when securing a 100k+ "personal" loan for something that's realistically worth 50% with no guaranteed return on investment. I mean from a financial risk point of view the alarm bells should have been going off well before even seeing a contract. But a dreams a dream, huh?
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 13:33
  #88 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,305
Access to EZY for many was only through the MPL route and of course only the larger ATOs conduct these courses. So it is of no surprise that it seemed at route to follow.
After all, apart from the MPL hiccup FLYBE had some eight years ago, the UK CAA issued MPLs have successfully delivered what it said on the tin.
True, the CPL/IR route if interrupted is easier to complete, but how foreseeable was C-19.....?
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 14:04
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 39
The MPL route is arguably a more controversial investment as you increase your risk as you narrow your options. All it took was for a relatively benign virus and boom, you're in 179K debt with nothing but a worthless piece of paper to show for it. The MPL route was incredibly risky and open to only those who could afford to lose 120k in all reality. The gamble paid off for some and now it's broken many. This practise should never have been allowed to go on in the first place and all those involved in the making of such a scheme should be the ones paying the price. Unfortunately for the Cadets, they are the ones who now suffer. The MPL should have only existed as a means for airlines to preselect and fully sponsor their future employees in a cost effective and forward thinking way.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 14:38
  #90 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,305
The majority of Integrated students want the “narrow option”
viz RHS multi crew, especially for those with an OML restriction.
A more focused approach for an airline apprenticeship.

Unless there is an Act of Parliament preventing ‘the scheme’, contractual relationships will eventually be resumed.

Aer Lingus did fully sponsor their MPL cadets, no doubt with a salary reduction as a payback for a number of years.

Last edited by parkfell; 19th Oct 2020 at 14:49.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 15:49
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by God_of_Fire View Post
I'm not sure when this crisis has passed that anyone will be able to raise a loan to fund one of these training courses. Surely all those caught short by what's just happened must be considering a personal bankruptcy against their debt?
I don't think that an unsecured loan for training has been obtainable for many years now, so as has already been mentioned it's very likely that mummy and daddy are going to be on the hook for the full amount with the family home at stake.

I don't have any issue with the MPL as a concept. I think the training is far more useful for those who intend on airline flying to the exclusion of everything else. It's somewhat anachronistic to expect new pilots who intend never to operate outside a multi-crew environment to spend hours bashing the circuit or doing single pilot nav ex's. The MPL is a good product that does what it's designed for. It's just a shame that in the current circumstances it's a worthless piece of paper, but let's face it: a traditional frozen ATPL would be at the moment too!
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 15:55
  #92 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 61
Posts: 1,546
It doesn't need an Act of Parliament, the CAA could simply make it a condition of approval that there is a no cost get-out to CPL IR if it all goes Pete Tong. Apart from the training quality arguments one v obvious reason why the ATOs jumped at the MPL is that it is significantly cheaper to deliver than the integrated ATPL, bigger profit margins. Time to ask them to set aside some of their profits in a contingency fund?
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2020, 17:09
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Age: 42
Posts: 438
Maybe it's time for someone with a can do attitude in charge of the CAA who actually knows about/likes aviation and who can get done?
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 17:40
  #94 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 61
Posts: 1,546
Maybe. CAA Board noting an Air Marshall that joined the RAF the year I left, oh dear, and a chap called Chris Tingle, who I guess may be on furlough this year
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2020, 18:48
  #95 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,305
The CAA may not be very keen to involve themselves with contractual matters.
They would need to treat ATOs similar to airlines, requiring financial stability with an ĎATOLí style scheme to protect the unfortunate customers left high & dry.
This would require primary legislation I suspect?
parkfell is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2020, 19:57
  #96 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 61
Posts: 1,546
I don't think so. With the CAA emerging from EASA rules they can set their own standards. Do you think the old CAPs governing approved schools were set in primary legislation? Of course not, they were made up on the hoof. Whether they will be brave enough to do so is another question.
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 08:12
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: shenzen
Age: 39
Posts: 323
parkfell

That C-19 would spoil the party was not foreseeable but that something would come along and spoil it was 100% foreseeable. It always does. These MPL's were a Ponzi scheme. Very sorry for all who got caught holding the worthless tickets. Those who got what was written on the tin, good on you, the gamble paid off, you were lucky.
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