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L3 Harris, the final shafting

Old 27th Sep 2020, 09:27
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 70
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Whilst I don't disagree with you, we are our own worst enemies. This and other forums are full of "where can I get the CHEAPEST" TR or IR etc, not where can I get the best quality!!
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 09:32
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: GB
Posts: 43
Out of curiousity, does anyone know whats happened with the current Aer Lingus cadets at FTE?
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 09:51
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I was eluding to people not training.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 10:28
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Disgusting behaviour by L3, although I can't say as I am particularly surprised. As an organisation they have been at the forefront of increasing costs and barriers to entry into aviation for 10+ years, this is just the latest low point.

To put it into context, these cadets need circa 100 hours flight training to 'upgrade' to a CPL. Pre-covid rates at local flying schools would be 150-200 GBP per hour, slightly more maybe for the multi-engine phases. L3 has decided to charge 600+ GBP her hour, a 300% markup.......

I would like to think this may finally cause enough of a reaction to shame L3 into doing something. Certainly if the pressure can continue to build on social media to drown out their usual "living the dream" nonsense then something might have to give.

However, I have long since argued that all integrated flight training should be fully-funded by airlines. This is the only way to ensure selection is based on merit. However, in the long-term do we really think this is going to change? Cadets being shafted suits the airlines, it suits the flight schools and it suits a select group of wealthy individuals who can afford to pay. There are simply not enough people prepared to break out of the "I'm alright Jack" mentality.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 10:51
  #45 (permalink)  
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Surely it's time to change the way the MPL works. Why does it need to be tied to a specific airline just because it uses their SOPs? In the real world someone can leave one airline for another and learn new SOPs. The regulator should test people and either trust them to fly... Or not.

These guys have paid for an MPL, so why can't they finish it?
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 11:02
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Uk
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Oddball77 View Post
So for which airline were these MPL students supposed to work for after training?
I believe these were EasyJet MPLs but I have heard the BA MPLs are in the same situation. BA have withdrawn offer of employment leaving them at the mercy of L3. The current L3 cadets many of whom have already paid for most of their course are hoping L3 survive long enough for them to complete their training. It would be a disaster for them if L3 went under with their 100,000+.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 11:06
  #47 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
.....These guys have paid for an MPL, so why can't they finish it?
I don’t think there is any Regulatory reason why simulator type rating cannot be completed.
The base training for MPL is twelve take-offs & landings which is usually conducted over two days (6/6).
[Why 12 and not the usual 6 still remains a complete mystery to me]

Normally they would become an employee just before the base training commenced. Insurance purposes etc.

When FLYBE had their previous hiccup probably 8 years ago(?), eventually with BALPA involved, as “non permanent employees” their cadets were issued with the MPL.
It simply requires the present cadet airline(s) to carry out the training for licence issue.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 16:50
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713

or even worse with their additional 63,000.

It would be a real bummer if despite paying the 63,000 L3 went under, all reminiscent of CABAIR.

Do we learn nothing?
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 17:52
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: galway ireland
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Yes Cabair- students who paid a top-up lost that as well as their training fees- worth googling to remind people what can happen- the internet may not forget but people certainly can
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 20:26
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London
Posts: 569
A few more to jog the internet's memory.

CAPT, Flagler FL
Pilot Training College, Ireland and FL
Jet University, Fort Lauderdale FL
Tab Express, DeLand FL
Silver State Helicopters, Las Vegas NV
Mazzei Flying Service, Fresno CA
American School of Aviation, Atwater CA
Euro American School of Aviation (Ormond Beach Aviation), Ormond Beach FL
National Pilot Academy, Cedar City UT
Airline Training International, Toronto ON
Aldergrove Flight Training Centre, Northern Ireland
Top Fly, Sabadell and Huesca Spain
Stinson Air Center, San Antonio TX
Airline Training Academy, Orlando FL

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Old 27th Sep 2020, 20:52
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Palm Beach
Posts: 48
Between this thread started by Alex W and several of my previous threads, I hope the integrated v modular debate is finally over - we shall see! Maybe the STICKY needs to go and we can start fresh?

Word of caution however, is this Forum influential enough today?... maybe? ,any opinions from those who have posted thousands of times over many years?

Oh and don't forget, many people have very short memories.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 22:12
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 18

Base training for MPL at my carrier was 6 T/O and LDGs, not 12.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 23:35
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Is this possibly a scheme to inflate the value of a soon to be forced-failure's balance sheet for a nice write-off?

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Old 28th Sep 2020, 07:44
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Thank You parkfell

We will start discussions with our authority

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Old 28th Sep 2020, 08:43
  #55 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by A320cp View Post
Base training for MPL at my carrier was 6 T/O and LDGs, not 12.
Interesting, as BA Cityflyers (as were FLYBE) were required to complete twelve for MPL base training.

There were discussions/proposals to reduce to six ~ perhaps that came through?

Last edited by parkfell; 28th Sep 2020 at 09:02. Reason: insert FLYBE
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 10:36
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
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"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be done
The answer is at FCL.325.A
Before exercising the privileges of a CPL(A), the holder of an MPL shall have completed in aeroplanes:

(a) 70 hours of flight time:

(1) as PIC; or

(2) made up of at least 10 hours as PIC and the additional flight time as PIC under supervision (PICUS).

Of these 70 hours, 20 shall be of VFR cross-country flight time as PIC, or cross-country flight time made up of at least 10 hours as PIC and 10 hours as PICUS. This shall include a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be flown as PIC;
Note that these requirements apply to the holder of a MPL, there is no mechanism for crediting hours received on an incomplete MPL course towards the requirements of a CPL. Note also that PICUS, within the meaning of FCL.010, may be gained only when acting as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane; time gained as SPIC or (peculiarly in the UK) P1/us may not be counted.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 12:20
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 30
Just out of mere interest, can someone actually now explain how was L3 supposed to handle this accordingly?
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 14:02
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3
Jetstream alpha

Basically the program is suspended indefinitely, they were given the option to continue training as self sponsored in a standard ATPL program with Aer Lingus contributing about 40% of the cost and a slight discount on the course from FTE. If they don't take this option they have been told they will be trained when the cadet scheme returns. The ones who do convert to ATPL have been given some sort of promise that they will be recruited ahead of others when recruitment eventually restarts
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 15:17
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 283
^ that is how a proper organisation treats people, despite the difficult circumstances.

It also raises the point that EZY and BA (if it is also their MPL cadets who are affected?) are not blameless here either. As an airline they have significant leverage to pressurize L3 to offer a discounted ATPL conversion. Maybe they did, but judging by the results they didn't try very hard.....
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 15:59
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Good game, Aer Lingus.
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