L3 Harris, the final shafting
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Spain
What makes you think there will be jobs in just 18 months time? The pandemic is still raging globally, international travel restrictions are getting WORSE not better. There are 10s of thousands of unemployed experienced pilots. The industry is crippled and has little capital to expand afterwards, and any expansion will be throttled by environmental concerns. 18 months is waaaaaaayyyyyy too soon.
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
I agree. This pandemic is just way too unpredictable to be putting estimates and dates on when the pilot shortage will return. I finish school in 2 years and I really want to become an airline pilot but i'm very sceptical as I know there's a massive chance that i might leave a flight school in 2024-25 with upwards of £120,000 of debt with no pilot jobs available, which would be a total nightmare.
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
Yeah, I was thinking a course in aviation management or maybe aerospace engineering; they sound quite interesting and they'd give me a foothold in the theory side of ATPL training if i did decide to go ahead with it. Even if I don't become a pilot i'd still quite like to work in the aviation sector.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: UK
Integrated flight training is insanity right now. Go modular if you must start training, it’s cheaper and you control the amount of time it takes and effort, weather and performance depending of course.
Are you in a job already or out of work? If you’re in a job you can obviously do the job part time and fly/study the rest.
Are you in a job already or out of work? If you’re in a job you can obviously do the job part time and fly/study the rest.
de minimus non curat lex
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,510
Likes: 7
From: sunny troon
Condor775
Excellent idea. Flying for pleasure is fun as well; when things calm down, you can think again.
Probably aged 40 as the cut off, although others will undoubtedly have their views…!
Excellent idea. Flying for pleasure is fun as well; when things calm down, you can think again.
Probably aged 40 as the cut off, although others will undoubtedly have their views…!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 74
Likes: 7
From: Within 3 hours of a suitable alternate
I have a very close connection with them at the moment, what do I think..... Just don't
The ground courses are a total shambles
They will have zero interest in you as an individual
You won't be able to contact anyone if you have a problem
They've fired a lot of ground instructors, the remaining ones say they hate the company
Initial flying training is now done in Portugal or Southern Ireland by contractors
The ground courses are a total shambles
They will have zero interest in you as an individual
You won't be able to contact anyone if you have a problem
They've fired a lot of ground instructors, the remaining ones say they hate the company
Initial flying training is now done in Portugal or Southern Ireland by contractors
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,458
Likes: 548
From: TOD
I personally know tens of very good, very experienced pilots out of work. There are thousands and thousands of folk like this across Europe.
The majority of airlines will be far more interested in these guys first. Even if there is a year of brisk recruitment, not all these folks will be back working on the flight deck. There is no sign of brisk recruitment at the moment. I would strongly suggest awaiting some solid evidence of a sustained recovery before committing any level of funding beyond PPL or ATPL ground school at the moment.
Splashing out large sums on training at the moment is a huge gamble, you generally only get one shot at it. Be patient and let the target come closer before you take your shot.
Trust me, you are missing out on nothing at the moment - a little patience and wisdom at the moment will serve you far, far better in the long run.
The majority of airlines will be far more interested in these guys first. Even if there is a year of brisk recruitment, not all these folks will be back working on the flight deck. There is no sign of brisk recruitment at the moment. I would strongly suggest awaiting some solid evidence of a sustained recovery before committing any level of funding beyond PPL or ATPL ground school at the moment.
Splashing out large sums on training at the moment is a huge gamble, you generally only get one shot at it. Be patient and let the target come closer before you take your shot.
Trust me, you are missing out on nothing at the moment - a little patience and wisdom at the moment will serve you far, far better in the long run.
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: UK
L3 & CAE
futurepilot22
Unfortunately everything that you have heard is true. L3 and their main competitor CAE only care about one thing and that is money. They view pilot training as a production line, make very little money at it and therefore try to push everybody through as quickly as possible with little regard for the standards of training. Until very recently they suffered from a lack of instructors and therefore students suffered from very large training delays. The same was true of CAE. If you are looking for a high quality training provider in the UK who really cares about their students you should try Leading Edge at Oxford. Whatever happens though, don't be fooled about their so called airline partnerships. The only airline recruiting in the UK / Ireland right now is Ryanair. However, their scheme is both unreasonably expensive, offers few guarantees and the employment conditions if you ultimately secure regular flying are terrible. It will probably be 2 or 3 years before any decent airline jobs become available.
Unfortunately everything that you have heard is true. L3 and their main competitor CAE only care about one thing and that is money. They view pilot training as a production line, make very little money at it and therefore try to push everybody through as quickly as possible with little regard for the standards of training. Until very recently they suffered from a lack of instructors and therefore students suffered from very large training delays. The same was true of CAE. If you are looking for a high quality training provider in the UK who really cares about their students you should try Leading Edge at Oxford. Whatever happens though, don't be fooled about their so called airline partnerships. The only airline recruiting in the UK / Ireland right now is Ryanair. However, their scheme is both unreasonably expensive, offers few guarantees and the employment conditions if you ultimately secure regular flying are terrible. It will probably be 2 or 3 years before any decent airline jobs become available.
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
I agree. L3 are probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to not looking after students, I’ve seen over the pandemic they’ve been dumping huge fees on MPL students who have had their employment offer withdrawn and are then trying to move over to the ATPL course; one thread shows a student who’s total training fee came to £173,000!
A lot of people get sucked into their lies and sadly they just can’t see that it’s too good to be true. The earth could be on the brink of destruction and L3 would still be telling students that there’s a ‘looming pilot shortage’ when in reality they know the chances are that these students are probably not going to find any pilot jobs for the next few years even though they’ve just led them to believe it’s safe to start training and many of these students will have taken out massive loans secured on their parents homes. I honestly think L3 misleading students like this should be illegal.
A lot of people get sucked into their lies and sadly they just can’t see that it’s too good to be true. The earth could be on the brink of destruction and L3 would still be telling students that there’s a ‘looming pilot shortage’ when in reality they know the chances are that these students are probably not going to find any pilot jobs for the next few years even though they’ve just led them to believe it’s safe to start training and many of these students will have taken out massive loans secured on their parents homes. I honestly think L3 misleading students like this should be illegal.
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Avoid
L3 grad here,
everything you have read is correct, an abysmal experience from a customer point of view, however their only saving grace is that 90% of the instructors I genuinely could not fault. The odd bad egg, but to be expected in a company of that size, but the majority were well aware of the treatment cadets were receiving and would bend over backwards to help you.
The company itself I witnessed get worse and worse over the 3 years it took them to complete my training. It has sold up NZ due to the pandemic, which to be honest was the best part by far of the training. It seems that it’s got to the point now from cadets that are still in the training chain that the majority of flying has been outsourced to other flight schools, with many cadets being sent to AFTA and LEA
everything you have read is correct, an abysmal experience from a customer point of view, however their only saving grace is that 90% of the instructors I genuinely could not fault. The odd bad egg, but to be expected in a company of that size, but the majority were well aware of the treatment cadets were receiving and would bend over backwards to help you.
The company itself I witnessed get worse and worse over the 3 years it took them to complete my training. It has sold up NZ due to the pandemic, which to be honest was the best part by far of the training. It seems that it’s got to the point now from cadets that are still in the training chain that the majority of flying has been outsourced to other flight schools, with many cadets being sent to AFTA and LEA
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 327
From: Hong Kong
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,354
Likes: 91
From: Somewhere