Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

L3 Harris, the final shafting

Old 28th Sep 2020, 16:25
  #61 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 61
Posts: 1,546
Only 70 flight hours on an MPL, the rest in simulators. One MCC/APS operator was offering a state-of-the-art fixed base NG sim at £80 an hour dry recently. The margins in an MPL are huge, that's why the big ATOs like them. L3 should have recognised what FTE clearly did, that reputation has a value. Mind you, FTE would have acted decently even if no-one was watching. As it is, who would go to L3 for anything now? The moral for megacorps is choose the managers of your subsidiaries carefully.
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2020, 16:27
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Uk
Posts: 3
ManUtd1999

It is EZY and BA MPLs. BA have also withdrawn the offer of employment for their ATPL cadets who are still some way off completing the course. Originally BA had stated they would be kept in a hold pool for up to 4 years until jobs became available this offer has been withdrawn. Apparently when and if BA start recruiting these cadets will have to go through BA selection process all over again. They will receive no preferential treatment despite having being selected by BA to commence training.
Smoggy88 is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2020, 17:25
  #63 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,307
One of the many advantages FTE have over L3, is that the CEO / Owner is on site, and is able to make rapid decisions as was the case in March with the unfortunate AerLingus cadets.
parkfell is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2020, 14:45
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 78
Smoggy88

There's a precedent here ... The late seventies BA courses at Hamble (781 onwards) weren't offered employment or a hold pool place on their course completion.
They had to complete the initial selection procedure again when BA next recruited, around 1987.
SID PLATE is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 12:04
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Have L3 been given the middle finger yet?

Last edited by Field Required; 1st Oct 2020 at 12:10. Reason: specified "middle finger" in case L3 cadets were unsure.
Field Required is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 13:11
  #66 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,307
Originally Posted by SID PLATE View Post
........They had to complete the initial selection procedure again when BA next recruited, around 1987.
Except those Hamsters who had joined BCal post Hamble and were subsequently “absorbed” into BA when that time came.
parkfell is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 18:20
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 78
That's another story ...

The BA DEP's who were disadvantaged when the BCal pilots were absorbed into the seniority list took BA to court.

The case was initially won. BA appealed, and it eventually went to the High Court. The Master of the Rolls, (who used to shoot grouse, and other unfortunate game birds, with Lord King, BA Chairman) overturned the decision.

Some of the BCal pilots had tried to join BA previously, but failed the selection. They were now absorbed, and senior to those who had passed.

Time to command, for the original BA FO's was significantly affected.
SID PLATE is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 21:54
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 57
Nobody forced these students to sign away their finances to an MPL scheme. The contract they all signed gave no guarantee of a job at the end of the training. Nobody could have foreseen the global pandemic and it’s consequences on aviation - but surely when you’re spending that kind of money you’d want to establish what your ‘licence’ is worth if the job wasn’t there?? Or perhaps ask if it’s transferable elsewhere at least??

Anyone who signed the contract and assumed they would get a job didn’t do the due diligence they should have and are unfortunately now hamstrung by the choice they made to go down the MPL route.

L3 are offering to convert the training to an CPL/IR, nobody is being forced to go down that route. The students are entitled to request their records and go to another school.

Its a simple as that.
glush is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 23:14
  #69 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,307
I think your comments are unsympathetic and are probably regarded as misleading, and fails to explain the actual relationship between the airline and the student in the ordinary course of events.
Unfortunately Force Majeure clauses were exercised by airlines given
the C-19 pandemic.

Those students who undertake the MPL route effectively ‘sign up’ with an airline, with conditional employment provisionally offered, provided the students progress were satisfactory or better, they will be taken on by the airline as a MPL holder in the RHS. They are selected by the airline, as suitable and not a training risk. No real difference to tagged/sponsored fATPL course students.

C-19 caused the implosion, and no amount of due diligence would have foreseen the events which unfolded.

It is a matter for each student to decide how to proceed.
parkfell is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 00:17
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,272
I agree with both of the above posters. The expectation was reasonable in the circumstances that prevailed. I doubt there was any intention not to absorb the prospective cadets. As always that is dependent on the airline having an actual need at the point of graduation. There is always a significant element of risk, and in that respect these events have seen the sky fall in!

without doubt these events will also be life changing for a great many people and existential for a great many companies.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 07:21
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: EDSP
Posts: 306
Really would be interested how those contracts exactly look like. Whithout having them seen:
The airlines are cutting their risks and losses by calling for force majeure. And I think it is undue discrimination of the students to impose the cost of airlines risk confinement on them.
Hopefully this is also what a court would rule. However until such a ruling is obataind - one of the companies might have gone tits up, making it a mute point.
The school might be liable as facilitator of the contract. At least from ethical point of view they should not profit from the situation and could do better in facilitating a CPL fATPL.
BDAttitude is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 07:27
  #72 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,307
The MPL students I have trained in the B737 simulator since 2010 (prior to this C-19 virus) were taken on by their airlines. I don’t think any were chopped? There was a hiccup some eight (?) years ago when FLYBE were in difficulty, but eventually they were issued with the MPL. Somewhat more complex than described.

I do agree that potentially the MPL student is entirely dependent upon the airline continuing with their obligations, whereas the CPL/IR (fATPL) is not airline dependent for potential licence issue, unless financially sponsored perhaps.

The actual MPL product is specifically trained for the RHS and given 120 hours multi crew training prior to type rating, compared to the MCC course students are clearly better prepared. That is not to say that some very competent MCC/JOC/APS students also succeed without issues.

Last edited by parkfell; 2nd Oct 2020 at 07:41. Reason: Insert : type rating
parkfell is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 11:31
  #73 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 61
Posts: 1,546
Oddy I was telephoned today by the man responsible for setting up the Easyjet MPL at what was then CTC, he had just been told about this situation. He confirmed that in the early days there was an absolute and open guarantee from CTC that, if anything went wrong with the MPL for any reason, including the airline pulling out, then the students could transfer to an ATPL course at no cost to themselves. The assumption must be that this warranty has been deliberately removed at some stage, unnoticed by the wider aviation community.

Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 2nd Oct 2020 at 21:53.
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:22
  #74 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,307
I stand to be corrected, but I believe FTE allowed MPL students in March to transfer across to the CPL/IR (fATPL) route at no additional cost compared to the original MPL course fee....?
parkfell is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2020, 13:25
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3
Yep they did this when FlyBe folded
Redmo is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2020, 03:26
  #76 (permalink)  
The Cooler King
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In the Desert
Posts: 1,683
I have a question:

When they signed up for a 100k MPL training package, was the 'zero refund policy' in the terms and conditions of the original deal?

If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.

They let dreams get in the way of proper risk assessment and risk mitigation.

PPRuNe has been here for decades, as are all the horror stories in the Wannabe forums.

It's sad to see students and parents lumbered with the hardship that goes with a bad business decision.
You can be sure that there are lawyers involved when buying apartments for similar money, yet here they just signed off on a deal that any responsible adult would have walked away from.

Farrell is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2020, 09:59
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 122
Ive met L3 cadets who didn’t find out about PPRuNe until they started training.

I mean when you’re sold a pretty much guaranteed job at the end and your folks can afford the £100k who really needs to know about T&C’s, the industries cyclic tendency’s etc etc. (Obviously that’s not the same for all L3 cadets)
Captain-Random is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2020, 11:32
  #78 (permalink)  
PFD
Ground instructor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Angry

Originally Posted by Farrell View Post
When they signed up for a 100k MPL training package, was the 'zero refund policy' in the terms and conditions of the original deal?
If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.
Nice. I see you have adopted the L3 Harris attitude to customers, akin to the way Gregory House treats his associates. Compassion at it's finest.

Under EU contract law alone, if you fail to provide a service paid for, then surely you are obliged to return the unused fees? L3 Harris returned $525,000,000 to their shareholders after the merger in 2019 (it's in their annual report easily found on t'internet). Their profits have steadily risen since.

For a Multi-Billion Dollar company to treat any customer like this, regardless of Covid is downright immoral. But I guess when you have more money than God, you can do what you like.

If they hadn't delayed so many students by anything up to 18 months, many of them (students) would have been in a job already when Covid hit.

From personal experience as an employee, I came to realise that far from running a successful ATO, they couldn't run a tap.

I don't blame L3 Harrris as a whole, but who ever is in charge of training, I hope you sleep okay.
PFD is online now  
Old 4th Oct 2020, 13:30
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 18
Hi

(If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.)

What a shame to see comments like that hindsight is always 20/20 but how many posts before FlyBe and Covid were saying how bad the MPL route was ?

Christopher Robin is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2020, 14:40
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,861
Farrell may not in some people's opinion be displaying much compassion but he/she is making a perfectly valid point: there have been plenty of warnings both on this forum and elsewhere for quite some time that betting the farm or a family home in order to pay a small (?) fortune for any full time ATPL or similar training package was taking a gamble.

Trust me it then got ***** frustrating to be told that GW1, 9/11, SARS type down turns could never happen again.....I certainly got that response several times over the years not just here but in person to person conversations with wannabies I met doing the day job over the last 5-10 years so it does appear the ATO's sales pitch and the kool-aid could be very persuasive.

Sadly I do suspect very strongly that the current collapse hasn't just caught out those currently going through training, I think many of those who escaped the reported delays at the likes of L3 and started at airlines in the last year or two will very much get caught up in this, if they haven't already.
wiggy is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.