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L3 Harris, the final shafting

Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:00
  #1 (permalink)  
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L3 Harris, the final shafting

This is circulating on social media

Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:28
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My my, who could’ve tought that the big integrated schools are a sham

I however feel sorry for the MPL students, they will have to sit on a donut shaped pillow for the coming years, regardless of their choice.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:36
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de minimus non curat lex
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A ‘somewhat unfair‘ treatment of customers if they decide to STOP.
Given the significant amount involved a legal opinion is probably necessary.
As for ‘Customer Experience‘ not exactly satisfactory.

Since hours flown cannot be cancelled or annulled by L3, are they transferable to the modular route with CAA approval.

At least they count towards the hour building if nothing else?

A prospective customer will no doubt study any contract with great care.....

parkfell is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:55
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£173,000... gutted for those caught up in this. I hope anyone thinking of using L3 in the future is shown this document...
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 21:58
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Wow. Assuming that flight training will pick up again some day in the (possibly distant) future, does L3 simply think that people will forget?
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 22:09
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They can credit their SEP hours towards a PPL. Provided L3 releases the student’s training records another ATO could integrate them somewhere in their PPL syllabus.
Furthermore, if completed, the ATPL theory should exempt them from PPL theory.

Thats about all (that I know about) which you can transfer from an MPL towards a Mod fATPL
African_TrouserSnake is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 22:49
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I don't see L3 releasing students' training records to other ATOs, unless there is a rule or law (and I would hope so) that obliges them to comply with the student's request.

Banana Joe is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 22:54
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I'm just lost for words. I hope this is the end of the big integrated schools and MPL.
Negan is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 23:10
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Banana Joe

I can only speak for my own CAA (EASA but not the UK) and I don’t know about L3’s internal rules, but they should at least release their records to their students.
The student could forward it to his/her/its next ATO.

The ATO signing the PPL course completion certificate certifies towards the CAA that the student has followed training according to part FCL, normally via a training curriculum approved by the CAA.

Hence, they’ll need to be able to justify any exemptions to their approved training curriculum (by means of L3’s training records) in order to comply with the completion certificate.

anyhow long story short; they normally require a signed training report for each training flight including its contents i.e. steep turns and slow flight + fi’s review

Last edited by African_TrouserSnake; 25th Sep 2020 at 23:20.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 23:24
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I knew this was a scam between the LCC's and the flight schools but I didn't realise that it was this bad. Just Shocking.
polax52 is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 23:29
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MPL is a bad idea in general. Aside of the underdeveloped airmanship discussion, and the 1500h misconception, realistically speaking the student’s faith is too dependant of the attached carrier and its whims which is a horrible concept.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 23:43
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That is $220,000 USD which is enough for 2.5 students to complete FAA 0- CPL ME IR + EASA conversion which would run you about $85k-$90k including accommodation and living expenses for the 6 months you’d spend in the US.
Same for Canada btw.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 01:08
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If this gets out and given the number of wealthy parents with their offspring on these courses it presumably will, I don't see how anyone could consider enrolling on an MPL programme that isn't fully funded by an airline up-front. Given the delays and other problems associated with the training school in question and now this, surely any prospective students won't be handing over their money. The sort of people who can afford the training (or their parents in many cases) are presumably intelligent people who, after seeing in the media rows of empty aeroplanes parked up, will conduct due dilligence far beyond sick presentations, shiny brochures and lots of pens. Many of these people are likely lawyers, doctors and auditors who spend their entire working lives dealing with the small details. Do these traits not follow them home from the office?

I heard that BA in the early 90's had a lot of cadets they couldn't offer immediate RHS jobs to due to the recession and Gulf War, those cadets were offered other roles in the company until a flying position was available. I don't even work in the aviation industry, yet it seems the changes over the past 25 years or so have been dire for European flight crews.

Surely, the MPL has to be finished after Flybe and now Covid-19, even a programme fully funded by an airline is a bit of a punt for a candidate that is currently in a good career elsewhere, particularly one with a difficult re-entry process.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 04:01
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It's an horrendous situation for them all, and as a fellow L3Harris cadet on the standard ATPL scheme who has trained with many of them, I know that if i was in their shoes, it would financially ruin me.

My understanding is the those being quoted the above figure of £173k are those who have completed A320 type rating, while those who have yet to start the A320 phase are being quoted a total cost of £131k. I don't understand how they have came up with these figures when i believe the total hours requirement for them is 110hours in addition to what they have already done. They have been given no break down of these costs what so ever, just told a figure. Totally unacceptable.

My heart really does go out to them all. Not heard about the BA MPL's, but would imagine they are in the same boat. Anyone know what CAE is doing about their MPL's?

Last edited by SPDBRD1; 26th Sep 2020 at 07:01. Reason: clarify
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 05:51
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difference being , you get straight on an A320 or 737 over here . Not living in a mall and flying a dash
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 08:36
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+ EASA Conversion

That puts you in the same boat as anyone in the EU licence wise, no need to spend five years towing ‘happy 40th Betty’ banners, can jump into a jet like the rest.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 08:41
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What L3 fail to realise is the damage such contracts have going forward when they attempt to attract future business from individuals. Other ATOs will invariably suffer unless they can demonstrate that they are different from such an uncaring Provider.
They need to review their contracts to ensure that to the ordinary man in the street that they are ‘fair & equitable’. Those who care about training will demonstrate positive TLC.
Yes they are a business and yes they need to make a profit, but when you screw the customers in the short term, you the business will undoubtedly suffer in the longer term.

Caring ATOs can actually make some smart moves at L3 expensive mistakes.

‘Customer Experience’ ? ~ some ‘Experience’

Something about a Barge Pole springs to mind....

Last edited by uncle dickie; 26th Sep 2020 at 08:54.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:28
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When there's a need for cadets again in a few years time, people will have forgotten all about this, and they'll be queuing up to fork over their money to L3.

I'd expect there to be a significant uptake of this offer, and that will prove to L3 that people are prepared to pay £175k for flying training. That will be the new going rate.

For reference, 15 years ago, the cost of the entire CTC Wings programme was approximately £65k.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:44
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de minimus non curat lex
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For reference, in 1972, Oxford were charging £5,000 for the CPL/IR (fATPL)
1990’s BAeFC at PIK charged BA & Cathay £60k per cadet.

Market forces as ever will determine the cost of courses not this £175k offer caused by a market implosion and MPL licence.

Last edited by parkfell; 26th Sep 2020 at 16:09. Reason: BAeFC costs
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:51
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In 1972, the average house in the UK cost around £5k. Today, it's around £237k. You could say that L3 are still under-charging!
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