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L3 Harris, the final shafting

Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:31
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Banana Joe

At the very least a formal subject access request under the GDPR regulations should produce the training records.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:35
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I think £7k was the average house price in 1972 - just googled it.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:55
  #23 (permalink)  
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flyingkeyboard

The Internet doesn’t forget.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 11:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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So for which airline were these MPL students supposed to work for after training?
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 11:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Meester proach

Use the spare change and do a P2F on a A320.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 14:27
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Oddball77

I have the same question.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 14:38
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Forgive me if Iím wrong but isnít the MPL no longer legally binding to an airline, meaning the licence is no longer restricted to the operator?

I have seen jobs out there saying they accept MPL licence incidentally German operators (AeroLogic and CargoLux).
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 15:13
  #28 (permalink)  
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I'm assuming.... these
possibly less Easyjet as I think they dumped L3
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 16:19
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I recall that when the big schools first offered MPL there was a real worry that no one would sign up and so they issued a guarantee that, should the associated airline go under, the school would pick up the tab to get the student an fATPL. Those days would appear to have gone, sadly.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 18:17
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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If you want to start immediately go for modular. you will save money and in the meantime, you can work or do a degree. If you want to do the integrated course I will wait at least one year if no more. Unfortunately, the global situation is changing continuously and no one knows when the aviation industry will recover.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 18:21
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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They are obliged to release the training records if instructed by a student!
If they don't do it, the student can request assistance from the CAA
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 19:14
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I understand how awful it must feel for those of you caught up in this mess. Can I have the answers to a few questions just so I understand what’s going on.

Say the MPL consists of 80 hours aeroplanes and 80 hours airline simulators.

Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?

Presumably no airliner simulator time is counted against a CPL/IR with frozen ATPL.

What exactly are L3 not refunding and what exactly are they proposing charges for?


Best of luck all in these uncertain times.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 19:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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This is utterly shameful. These cadets have been hung out to dry by both their training school and their prospective future employers. At a time when Airlines are taking government loans (that are being written off) in order to keep them afloat, this is how they choose to treat those who have made a commitment to work with them. As noted above other options have been taken in the past. This is no way to treat customers or staff, and nobody should forget that. Cadets have not had a voice for a long time and hence the rising cost of entering the industry, but this treatment is beyond the pail.

I think these cadets should take legal advice. It is against the law for any company to abuse a dominant position in the market, it is also an anti-trust issue to tie sales of products when in that dominant market position.

These are difficult times for everybody, but for a corporate to dump the entire risk and impact of this situation on a vulnerable (and easily bullied) customer base is nothing short of shameful!
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 20:14
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be done

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Old 26th Sep 2020, 22:53
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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This is an absolute disgrace and every single person responsible at L3 should hang their heads in absolute shame (presuming they know what the word means). Congratulations, you are the gutter scum of this industry and I hope it bites every single one of you in the nastiest way possible.

They cannot and should not be allowed to get away with this. Calm and level heads must prevail and they need to be beaten with logic and action, not emotion and anger.

For my part, I will be actively encouraging every aspiring pilot I come across from now on at my airline's school and university open days to not even look at L3, I will be referencing this screenshot a lot in future. Thankfully we also involve pilots a lot in our training decisions, should there ever be so much as a hint of them considering L3 I know I will be very vocal and judging from what my colleagues are saying, I am not alone.

This has gone down like a lead balloon and as mentioned, the internet never forgets, thankfully.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 03:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Based on the above, you must know more about the situation than is given in this topic. So, in your opinion, how was L3 supposed to handle this?
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 05:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Given the state of the whole industry, I doubt L3 will be around for very long. They have had their time.
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 05:24
  #38 (permalink)  
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Training or manufacturing?
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 06:59
  #39 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Originally Posted by flybyschool View Post
"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be done
It may well depend how the flying syllabus is written.
If it is the case that up what would be required for PPL issue, the syllabus is common for both MPL & fATPL students, and the progress test taken at that point is by a FI authorised to conduct PPL tests, then it may be possible for a PPL to be issued. If not, then a test now by an approved person is required for PPL issue.

After this point there is probably a divergence in syllabus with more SE followed by some ME flying, both resulting in a shortfall compared to the CPL/IR syllabus. Simulator time ME would also have a shortfall in hours.

Phase 2 & 3 now occurs, with 30 multicrew simulator exercises in say an A320 or B737, totalling 120 hours training.
Phase 4 is the Type Rating Course (standard issue)& base training. The TRI & TRE must also be both MPL approved instructors.
The type rating paperwork now fully completed triggers MPL issue.

The Regulator would hopefully take a pragmatic view and recognise that at least the PPL can be issued.
Furthermore, hopefully recognise that if appropriate training and testing in SE and ME to cover the shortfall is completed then CPL/IR is possible.

A modular route would require the necessary hour building to “top up” MPL course flying to a point before the CPL & IR modular courses.

All this must be carefully executed fully complying with what the REGULATOR written instructions specify.

My I end by saying this is a dreadful situation to find yourself in, through no fault of your own.
Any future scheme must have the airline fully sponsoring the cadet as is/was the case of Aer Lingus.
The only decent show in town.

Last edited by parkfell; 27th Sep 2020 at 07:17. Reason: TRI/TRE v. MPLi
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Old 27th Sep 2020, 07:58
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
Any future scheme must have the airline fully sponsoring the cadet as is/was the case of Aer Lingus.
The only decent show in town.
I sincerely hope this happens. This industry needs to take a few steps backwards and focus on quality not quantity.
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