contacttower118.2

I'm interested in the basis for that statement sapco2 especially since your profile indicates you are a very experienced pilot. May I ask though whether you work for an airline that recruits a lot of pilots for whom it is their first airline job?

The view I have formed is that while 10-20 years ago the modular+self improver route may have been a reliable way to get to a large operator today the integrated schools do have a bit of a strangle hold over the UK airlines at least...just look at CTC's client list and their record! I know a number of airlines like Jet2, Aer Lingus (and I guess we will see about Thomson this winter) sometimes buck that trend but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule unless one has contacts on the inside.

I don't doubt that once a few hundred hours are accumulated on a MPA the training background ceases to be as important provided one is a good pilot and has the team skills etc but for that first job I have yet to see any evidence to contradict my belief that integrated is a more reliable route.

john_smith I find it slightly strange you take issue with smartguy's assertion that airlines prefer integrated since you are an easyJet pilot...an airline that has apparently made a policy out of only taking integrated at cadet level (yes obviously I know they are not the only UK airline!). I know they have recently taken experienced non-TR but that was only with military or MPA time.

Perhaps therefore you can answer a question for me...

If you have done modular and only have lots of single pilot time (say you instructed for a bit or whatever...) with the exception of the CTC ATP route or perhaps working for easy in a ground role for a while how are you supposed to get into the company without multi crew time? Is it possible at the moment through any route?

The above is something I have been trying to find an answer to for a while so I would be grateful if you could help me out on that one...

smartguy

John_smith,

If Easyjet, monarch,BA preferred modular surely they would send their selected cadets and future pilots to modular school! It is obvious that they prefer integrated because they send their own bloody pilots to be trained there!Ok so lets take easyjet...How many modular students do they take each year?? And How many integrated pilots do they take on each year?? If you can answer this question correctly you will say that they take on more integrated pilots!

Easyjet Pilot - look at this it clearly states that easyjet are planning to grow 7-10% annually an it also says that they take many of their cadets from the likes of ctc

smartguy

I am also finding it tricky to believe that some people think that the likes of:

Easyjet
Monarch
BA
Jet2
Qatar

Prefer modular!? ummmm isn't it obvious that with the number of integrated students they take that they prefer integrated??!

smartguy

The airlines are running per selected schemes but the easyjet cadet scheme only come around every year or so and they only take around 15-20 cadets each time however, they need to recruit 200+ a year so they will need more than 15-20 pilots so they will most likely use the ctc hold pool.

Even if a ctc wings cadet doesn't get place through the hold pool he is in the position of a modular graduate and since this is a 'modular vs integrated' debate the hold pool is surely an advantage

contacttower118.2

Clearly that is a trend which could work against the generic integrated route however if current trends continue, even with moderate expansion the current MPL numbers will not cover requirements.

Now MPL recruitment could of course be increased in the future (which would in theory make it easier to get onto MPL...) but I doubt in the good times it will ever be a complete solution for the airlines because it involves planning further ahead than they often want to. Also it is not unheard of in OAA's case to take people from the integrated course and internally put them on an MPL course if they are still at the ground phase. This was done with the last easy MPL.

Edit to add:

I have just seen john's answer, thank you for that...I have taken on board what you say along with all the other opinions I have heard.

UberPilot

You're not grasping the situation or what people are pointing out to you at all!

Obviously if you have been selected by an airline prior to training then that airline would want to send you on a full time structured training course - they presumably have identified a need for pilots so want you productive as soon as possible! No one is disputing that in this case an integrated course is the best proposal; why would an airline send you away to study part time with no structure or guidance?! That wouldn't make sense!

What the majority of experienced aircrew are pointing out to you is that if you are not pre selected, then you are incurring vast extra expense to put yourself through a course that you believe the airlines favour as an end-product generator when in fact the only reason that they do use this format is that it is full time and offers the product most expeditiously... If you do not get pre-selected (I hate that phrase) then taking an extra year to train, albeit Woking at the same time, incurs you minimal debt yet you end up with exactly the same license at the end.

Question to you: what happens if, after 18 months of flying, you don't get the necessary first series IR pass after spending 70k so far at CTC? You're no longer on the wings scheme, no hold pool and with huge debt! It can, and dies happen!

sapco2

My experience comes from working at Orion Airways , Britannia Airways, Airtours and currently DHL, all of whom have historically recruited ab-initio pilots from both training backgrounds. IMHO it is a complete myth to believe you're going to receive superior training from any one source. My current airline has a track record of training LEPs straight onto the B757, they have never discriminated on training backgrounds albeit the entry procedures and tests to get in are extremely tough.

What I am telling you extends beyond my own airline experience because I have a 24 year old son who has recently qualified. He seriously looked at both CTC and FTE for his training but the economics for him just didn't stack up. He chose Bristol GS for his ground school, he did some of his hour building in France and the channel Isles then trained for his CPL/IR with Airways flight training in Exeter. He focused well and managed to condense what would have been a 14 month integrated training course with FTE into just nine months by setting his own full time pace. He completed the entire process at a cost of £48,000 and he tells me that he has enjoyed every minute of it.

My son is now in the early stages of his job hunt so I guess the proof of the pudding will be how soon he finds that suitable job, unfortunately this won't be with my company (not in the short term anyway) because we are not currently recruiting.

Mention has been made of the BA recruitment process, they do structured integrated courses (as you'd expect) which are tailored to their own specific needs. Sometimes candidates train alongside those BA candidate at their own expense, however I've never known BA to buck their selection trend by taking on self funded pilots. It is only possible to join BA further down the experience line, once you've cut your teeth with other airlines - typically after gaining 1500 hours or so.

I know a few young guys in the instructing world who have graduated via the integrated training system who are still looking hard for airline work. One clever young guy in particular qualified via the integrated route over 4 years ago and he is still looking for his first flying job outside of instructing.

It's a really tough world out there - you just need to be very lucky as well as being very good!

I hope this helps guys!

contacttower118.2

This year I think CTC started 36 MPL easy cadets and 48 at OAA (according to their website not sure if that was the number they actually ended up with) and I heard that 20(?) of the OAA lot were generic integrated who were lucky enough to be transferred across.

I guess the truth is no one knows. easy themselves don't know exactly what expansion will be but 10-15% does is way too optimistic. It remains to be seen how much mileage there is in the strategy to take legacy airline customers which seems to be the basis of their continued strategy...

Both OAA and CTC have failure protect for the vast majority of the course cost, not all I grant you but most.

UberPilot

But you haven't failed a flying test? You've only failed to achieve their standard. Different things...

smartguy

Ok so basically what you are all telling me is if I do not get on to an airline tagged scheme, I should go modular. however if it comes down to a time when I don't get on a tagged scheme and have to choose between an untagged integrated or modular I would choose the integrated because I don't need or want the flexibility of working at the same time, I want to train in the best environment with other course mates and as quickly as possible with airline focus. Friends have told me that the training and instructors are really good at the likes of ctc or oaa. Having said all of this I may still choose modular but I am doing my ppl at a modular school and it doesn't have the right atmosphere compared to what I have seen at oaa or ctc.

I would also like to say that the airlines do take cadets from the ctc wings program and will do in the future because otherwise the ctc flexicrew system wouldn't work

contacttower118.2

Wow this thread has suddenly started moving fast...trying to keep up!

You know I have always wondered whether there might be some sort of legal case against easyJet for their recruitment policy. I mean if you want to get a first flying job with them you have to do CTC/OAA which usually involves taking out a large loan, which these days means having unmortaged value on a UK property. Obviously not everyone has this which is effectively, tagged or not, is a bar on people who are financially less fortunate. Surely this is a form of discrimination.

Thank you, great post...

contacttower118.2

What I meant was that if at CTC or OAA you fail to meet the standard of the course through lack of aptitude they will refund you up to £69,000 in CTC's case and a similar amount for OAA (don't have the figure to hand).

Both also include remedial training, within reason obviously, at no extra cost. To be completely accurate I think OAA pay for retakes of ground/air exams as well, CTC don't.

UberPilot

So second series passes that exclude you from the AQC and hold pool are not covered. Worth knowing I think!!

contacttower118.2

Oh for sure, I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I think CTC would probably be on the side of caution though when it came to letting people go forward to the AQC phase who had really struggled on the course. I doubt they would let you complete your CPL/IR with them if they thought you were going to fail at a later stage.

That said I have heard of Wings cadets who failed the easy line training which must have been a very awkward position to be in...

Worth remembering though that their selection process is pretty good, although by no means perfect, at weeding out those who are not going to make it and 90%+ of the Wings cadets get through into the pool without an issue.

Bealzebub

Why?

Unless they discriminate on the basis of race, age, gender, or sexual orientation, what exactly would your "case" be? Discrimination is not illegal, unless it falls into a small range of categories. In fact discrimination is a good thing. It is what stops you killing or injuring yourself in numerous ways every day of your life.

Employers "discriminate" so that find what they hope will be the best people for the job. Provided they avoid any of the illegal forms of discrimination, they can employ who they like and as they see fit. If that isn't you or your mate, tough luck. Try someone else. Just as they can discriminate, so can you.

contacttower118.2

Bit a difference though...

For a start socialists tend to believe in equality, whereas most people just believe in equality of opportunity.

No company that I know of makes an open statement of fact that they only recruit people from private schools even if in reality that is what happens.

However easyJet are known for not taking ab initio modular and pretty much only taking from two flight schools. If they did not recruit low hours at all then that would be a perfectly defensible position but they do...and only from two sources really. Entry to those schools is effectively barred to those who do not have access to property secured finance. Of course a modular flight school costs money too, so that will always be a 'barrier to entry' to an extent but not an unreasonable one because it can be paid for from a variety of different sources whereas CTC can only really be paid for one way for most people which is a way that many can't manage.

In the case of studying to be a doctor or lawyer at undergrad level there are established student loans in place that minimise the risk of unaffordable repayments should employment not be found. Even on a conversion course the costs involved are a lot less and the funding processes most established and secure. This mitigates the financial outlay and therefore the discrimination element is reduced.

Of course a degree of discrimination takes place and is indeed desirable in general as Bealzebub points out. What I am saying is that the airlines who operate the model of just taking from one or two select schools are operating a more extreme form of it than would be considered 'normal' in other industries.

I am not saying this from a point of total ignorance, my father has been a lawyer for 40 years and I have discussed this very point with him. You probably think I am mad for writing all this and of course the likelihood of anything ever changing is very low. However if for whatever reason competition law ever takes a greater interest in the employment area this practice of only recruiting through certain schools could be called into question.

Very unlikely I know but if it ever does change, you read it here first.

contacttower118.2

I agree not much point in arguing since this is a bit tangential to the thread...

Just to be clear though I am specifically talking about easyJet here because airlines like Ryanair take from a variety of training backgrounds.

UberPilot

Anyone can sit the entry tests to theses schools though? That is open competition, and in no way anti-competitive. There will always be careers that involve huge initial financial outlay. I couldn't afford to pursue karting to a high level as a child due to lack of funds hence I'm not an F1 driver!

contacttower118.2

Ah yes but I'm not talking about the schools though, there is no legislation to force any school, flight school or otherwise, to take someone if they cannot pay. I am more pointing the figure at the airlines who only take from one or two sources.

I don't want to clog up the thread with this though, it was just an aside thought that I mentioned in a previous post which john then picked up on so I thought I would see how far I could get with it. It is clearly not relevant to people currently trying to enter into the profession so I apologise for diverting the thread.

sapco2

It seems an odd type of recruitment policy alright, which begs the question why they don't do their selection prior to pilot candidates shelling out all that cash!