mad_jock

Look just doing the commercial flying part of the course will not give you a degree.

The ATPL syllabus is at age 16 exam level. There is no academic content to it.

The degree course will have the flying and ATPL theory side of things as part of a larger degree content. So there will be no way a modular student will be able to get on the program.

All you are really playing with is loan availability and payback conditions for a portion of the money. If you don't have access to a further 40-50k the situation really doesn't change.

EMA747

@mad_jock - I agree entirely with what you say. For me personally it's the loan part that would have been of most interest rather than getting a degree out of it which in reality would probably not be a very useful degree in any other job/industry.

I'm sure everyone on here would agree that some form of government backed and issued loan, paid back only once a certain wage had been achieved would be of a massive benefit to those not able to borrow the money off parents etc.

The problem for a lot of us is that the money would have to be earned while training and whilst paying for living costs as well. The main problem though is that while the pilot jobs market is pretty daunting and unpredictable the main worry is that the £50-70K you sink in to a modular course is worth pretty much naff-all if you don't get a pilot job. Not meaning anyone that has replied to this part of the thread but I do get the impression quite a few people fail to see some of the major issues like this. If you are 18 and go and do say a English degree, you will probably have a great three years and even if you don't get a job at least the loan repayment scheme isn't that bad these days, plus you have a degree that might at least get you an interview somewhere. But you haven't spent vast sums of money upfront like you would in pilot training.

mad_jock

The reason why the loans are hard if not impossible to get is because loaning money for pilot training is an extremely bad risk.

Why is it bad risk?

Because people don't get jobs.

In Holland there are 12-15 intergrated students now taking the banks to court saying that the banks shouldn't have loaned them the money in the first place. I think they each owe in the region 110k euro.

And now a person going to a flight school won't get a loan unless that flight school has had two pilots obtain jobs after training.

I think 4 schools have already gone bust, KLM school is still pumping out hundreds per year. KLM has nearly 1000 in the hold pool and are looking to get rid of its Foker fleet.

Libertine Winno

In fairness though, flying in Holland is incredibly expensive compared to other parts of Europe, including even the UK.

Dutch students can gain a loan for their flying, but it must be done at a Dutch flying school. For those at OAA etc they cannot access the loans from the Government, and must instead arrange their own via the likes of BVBA as UK students do.

mad_jock

The ones I have met the loan is through a bank and nothing to do with the government. And they have a huge benefit that they don't have to pay tax until the loan is paid off. Thus reducing the real cost to below the price in the UK.

And they are just waiting if they get booted out of work and then they will go bankrupt as the country they are now resident in has very favourable terms compared to going bankrupt in NL.

EMA747

Very very true. This is the reason why I think a pilot career will remain the preserve of the very rich or those lucky enough to get a sponsored place on an integrated course. It's a shame for those of us that don't fall into either of those categories but that's life.

smartguy

I have just been talking to the man who has developed the degree after I made an enquiry and he told me the following:

I'm afraid it only works for integrated courses at either ctc or oaa

The loan and maintance loans will cover all uni costs and leave a significant amount to cover the cost of your flight training

You do no additional work to obtain the degree than any other ctc wings cadet, how it works is you do ground school, all basic pilots licenses, advanced simulator training (MCC), type rating with your partner airline, line training and you are awarded the degree on your first flight with passengers.

So it's not as amazing as first thought, however it is still a massive step forward for integrated students with the help from the government as they don't have to take out as much money from their parents or the BBVA bank! And they only pay it back after earning 21k a year.

mad_jock

A pretty worthless degree then. I presume its only an ordinary degree then?

And only available to cadets schemes.

So its not going to change anything.

smartguy

Yes but it's not the degree that's the useful part it's the fact that you get 9k a year, so that's 27k with type rating, plus a maintanence loan of upto 5k a year which will change a lot for hopeful pilots.

No the funding is available to all integrated students at oaa or ctc

As I said it's not the degree that's best part. Think of it as a bonus on the side. You get a bachelors degree with honours in professional aviation and pilot practice. And dispite it being a bit worthless, never the less it's something else to write on a CV and it does provide a pilot with the requirements to move on to a masters degree later on in his/her career.

EMA747

That's interesting smartguy and thanks for posting what you found out. Like you say the degree isn't really the useful part of this scheme.

So if you knocked off the £27K from an CTC or OAA course how much does that leave you having to fund out of your own pocket (inc living costs)?

The way I've been advised by someone in the know on these matters on the student loan is that in reality it's not a very onerous thing to have to pay back the way they have got it set up and to think of it as like another small tax on your wages.

So if you effectively discount the £27K the cost of a CTC or OAA integrated course would surely come down to something more like the cost of an integrated course, ie around £50K? I guess the disadvantage would be that you can't earn the money as you go along.

sm85

I'm thought CTC came out closer to £90k plus living expenses:
£70k bonded +£20k foundation course + living expenses, could be wrong but I have been seriously looking at the courses offered at Integrated schools.

Integrated really does seem the way to go in terms of continuity of training and placement with employers but the level of borrowing involved is just huge. Looking at it as a career change getting my head around not having an income whilst training seems unmanageable and the idea of paying interest on borrowing for living expenses does not sit well with me..

smartguy

Yes but as Nelson15 said, employment hopes for modular students at airlines are awful.

And with the new government funding of upto 27k + maintenance loan, integrated works out at the same price as a modular!

gpiper

thats true smartguy but then again you will have to pay the sponsorship given to you by the government.

Theunderdog, firstly I would suggest you to go through the threads about modular vs integrated, then the threads on cadet programs, and finally the threads about a university degree.

From now on universities can offer you a top up course which basically is a one year distance learning course, and you end up with a degree. This applies if you already got your ATPL, which the specific university considers it equal to two years in the university. Most degrees which are available as top-up are related to aviation and management.

Distance learning and top up for engineering is not available, and if you decide to do a 3 or 4 year degree first, just don't choose something related to engineering because it will be useless and doesn't count at all if you want to become a pilot. Obviously you are going to be either a pilot or an engineer, both cannot be combined, at least in the UK.

My personal advice is, firstly go modular to save money, then do a one year distance learning top up degree(you can work as a pilot and at the same time study for a degree at home). I am not sure which universities offer the kind of course, one is kingston and the other is new bucks I believe. do some research on your own.

mad_jock

Unless you are on a Cadetship they are exactly the same. Ryanair isn't fussy which way you trained.

In fact there are a lot of CP's for the smaller operators who are modular trained and prefer that option.

There are also a few who only take 1000 hour instructors again with no preference on how the training was done.

You have obviously bought the marketing and aren't such a smartguy.

Cows getting bigger

There are those of us in the industry who foresee a slow return to the modular route. (of course I would say that as I'm in that half of the profession pilot training infrastructure).

We certainly have some interest from the less obvious commercial operators.

smartguy

This is almost laughable, you ask a captain at easyjet how many newly qualified modular pilots he flies with vs how many newly qualified integrated pilots he flies with, the answer would be obvious

No matter how much bs sales and marketing, at the end of the CTC and OAA place their pilots with partner airlines. So to say that the employment opportunities are exactly the same!!? Well that's not true

You are right in saying that ryanair takes a lot of modular pilots, despite this they take more integrated pilots! And now ryanair have shut their doors, so you can't really use them as an example anymore

You seem to like the examples of 'small operators' , and yes there are a lot of modular pilots at small operators but this is because they can't get jobs at large operators! All those jobs seen to be going to CTC and OAA and their cadets

mad_jock

Exactly if your not paying through the nose for the top of the range CTC wings thing which as part of the deal is a placement with a partner airline on a flexi-screw contract. It might not be easyjet, it could be in all manner of poo holes, you don't have a choice of either the country or the terms of said contract.

Any of the other courses you are on plums.

And they don't placed with anyone these days unless your on a cadetship or the wings thing.

You are punted off towards Ryanair which will take either method of training then you are on your tod as all the jobs are now going through cadet schemes.

The schools have really screwed up with the cadet schemes. In the past there was a chance you would be placed, it was only decided after you had spent your money and completed training. Then you would get put forward for interview. Now unless your pre selected you haven't got a chance in hell.

Its Ryanair or stuffed.

smartguy

mad_jock - I think you are one of many people on this forum who are very old-fashioned in your thinking of becoming a pilot. It is very old-fashioned to think that you should train to become a pilot modular whilst working another job, then working hard as an instructor for many years, then working at a small operator for a couple of years before moving onto a larger airline.

Nowadays, it is much more common for teenagers to be going to places such as CTC or OAA and working for large airlines at the age of 19.

At least it's a job! A modular pilot wouldn't be able to do much better. I find it hilarious that your still trying to defend modular after I have told you that with the government funding, going to CTC or OAA is the same price as a modular course!

When we talk about integrated at CTC we do tend to mean the ctc wings cadet program!!! What else is there at CTC? The modular program? I don't know what your talking about, 99% of pilots at CTC are either on the ctc wings cadet program or an airline scheme!

smartguy

Ummm...100% placement record!

mad_jock

Smartguy you can tell me want you like. I will treat it with the same amount credence as anything a wannabie tells me about the airline industry which I work in when they have never sat behind the controls of an airliner and flown it with pax in the back.

So what is wrong with the statement that if your not on a cadetship or on the wings course you have Ryanair or that's it? And even Ryanair has large numbers of modular pilots getting through as well.

And the wings course they don't take just anyone. And compared to the other streams they have relatively few people going through it. I believe the hold pool is over 18 months now for placements and people are getting sent to the likes of lionair.

Even with your government loans your still in a worse position than a modular pilot if you start work.

Loganair have taken on double figures of first type rating pilots in the last year. They won't touch fresh out of school pilots, they only will take ex-instructors. Mainly because they need pilots not automatics operators.

Anyway you may have to wait for my reply because I have to got and strap a JAR 25 aircraft to my backside and line train a modular trained FO how to fly it for 4 sectors.

You have been hooked in hook line and sinker to the marketing.