UberPilot

Dude, you're beyond help! Do you really think having completed flying training at an integrated school will get you a job over the 1000s of other applicants? How many CVs that were near enough identical did Aer Lingus and eJ get recently? Probably 1000s... What will get you the job is a stand out CV, not the foolishness of parting with 100k for training with no discernible advantage! Do you volunteer? Do you have an extra curricular hobbies involving a team? Any positions of responsibility? The Frozen ATPL is an easy license to get, let's be realistic, it's not comparable with a degree or any other tertiary qualification so you have to have other things on your CV to stand out. Most big airlines aren't just after a line pilot, but people with good potential for ops/management in years to come.

You will probably spend a fortune on an integrated course though, and in 18 months time you'll look back and regret it as you'll be paying a fortune back each month with no flying job! I wish you well!

gpiper

I agree with what 119.35 said. If you made up your mind and you believe that integrated is a better choice than modular, then go integrated. Things to consider since you began arguing about this topic from the first day you joined PPrune, structured modular is now available by some schools, all of them highly recognized and reputable, takes less time to complete than integrated, and it includes MCC as well which is what most airlines require now, not to mention that anyone who attends such a school finishes with MORE hours than a student who finished at an integrated school and most importantly with LESS MONEY. Also in an integrated school, you will pay more, have less hours (not the best thing if you are looking for a big shiny jet job), you get all your licenses at the end of training(if you make it), and you don't get a PPL license. Lastly and most importantly, an Integrated school will help you if they want to, get a job by putting you in the the holding pool which you paid for it, and you might stay there from 1 to 3 years because most of their airline partners now stopped hiring and expanding, god knows for how long. Lastly, now that all the airlines expect from you to pay for your type rating, for me at least it's all about dignity. You pay all this amount of money knowing that other people don't have money to eat, don't have money to send their children to school, because you suddenly had the feeling that you wanted to be a pilot as quickly as possible. Well my friends, there isn't such a thing as fast route, you need to work your way up the ladder like everyone did, like all the 30 year experienced pilots. Integrated ads and bull..... are nice and good, but not true. So all in all, going modular, then doing an instructors course, get some hours, and then apply for a job, is the full proof route if you are not in a cadet program.
If all the 2-3 idiots who are arguing with everyone in this thread still believe that the integrated schools are what they used to be, then there is not point looking into this forum because after reading all 27 pages, I think the numbers are 85% modular, 10% integrated, and 5% wannabee farts.

contacttower118.2

With some trepidation I'm going to wade into this debate...

Having done the selection processes for CTC, OAA and been around a lot of the top modular schools from Bournemouth to Scotland in my quest to find the best place to continue along my training from PPL level I have come to some conclusions. I have spoken to a lot of students both current and former and taken opinions from a vast number of instructors and flight school managers as well. I have had a variety of opinions on modular vs. integrated given to me often opposing but all with their own merits.

For the purposes of this post Integrated effectively means OAA, CTC and FTE (I know there are others like Flying Time but I don't know much about them) and modular means the well known schools like PAT, BCFT, Stapleford, Multiflight, ACS, Tayside, Airways etc. There are of course the modular routes at the Integrated schools as well like Waypoints and Take Off.

I have come to the conclusion that it is very difficult to generalise but if one is going to I think the following...

Among the big operators there does seem to be a preference for integrated training. As to why is this I got a variety of opinions from simply that the airlines like a known product to the view that the old 'self improver' route is still tarnished as being a bit haphazard in the terms of what it turns out, sometimes very good pilots who have excellent handling skills but sometimes a complete loss of flying discipline and procedure.

The view that I have developed though is that the larger airlines have simply got into the habit of taking integrated out of convenience. It is easier for them to approach integrated schools for chunks of low houred cadets rather than go to the hassle of doing public adverts. I know this happens sometimes like for Aer Lingus or the Jet2 apprentice scheme recently but there are often thousands of applications for a tiny number of places. Of course some modular candidates will get into these but simply due to the numbers it is unlikely more than a few will from either background. If you have been to one of the big three schools though you potentially have access to airline assessments that are not available to schools without airline connections.

Ryanair of course have taken many modular in the past but now that CAE have Oxford and a number of other schools in their collection I fear that Ryanair may find it easier to simply take direct from them rather than reopen their public applications page. This is just my guess though I am not trying to purport this to be fact at all

So IMHO integrated is better for a quicker route into a large operator.

Now a lot of is often made of the fact that modular can be a route into smaller operators and instructing. This is no doubt true and some smaller operators do indeed prefer modular for the reasons that are well debated on here. However my basic problem with this as an argument for modular in general is simply that there are far fewer smaller operators out there and far fewer aircraft to go around. A large airline will have about 12 or more pilots per aeroplane and a fleet of at least 50 aircraft. They just out number the smaller operators by a long way. The same argument is true about instructing, yes it can be great to do but not everyone can do it because there simply would not be enough instructing jobs to go around!

Now some modular schools do have good airline connections. For example the two well known Scottish schools have an excellent track record with Loganair and a few other smaller operators but the numbers they turn out are quite low. That has no doubt been a great route for some but the numbers again suggest that for the average ab initio student, all other things being equal integrated has greater chances of success.

As far as the finances are concerned the debate is well versed on this. The only thing I would add is that it seems to me that airline recruitment is now rather polarized between integrated cadets and 500hrs+ on multi pilot aircraft (high quality 500hrs not P2F!). Just look at BA CityFlyer, easyJet, Jet2 and all the others who have recruited this year, they all want MPA time and sometimes above a certain weight. This can be great for some small turbo operators wishing to move on but for people who went instructing to build experience this is a frustrating state of affairs. Thousands of people apply to these adverts so for some with 500hrs+ turbo time for example this can mean quite a long wait on comparatively low pay. That is just something that needs to be weighed against the likely large operator pay, the cost of type ratings at some larger operators and debts from integrated. As you can see there are arguments both ways on the finance side of things and it is impossible to generalise on that one...

The final thing I'd say is about the training environment itself. For younger students the integrated environment can offer a more coherent setting in which to study and absorb information. It is more 'school like' and the experience of being around your fellow students all the time is of course going to be beneficial for many people especially if one is not so good at self motivation. Now some modular schools are very institution like as well but tend to be smaller so do in general require more self motivation. That is more of a personal preference thing though...

Myself having said all of the above may well actually continue modular. I have seen OAA and CTC and all they have to offer but ironically CTC's modular option may well be the best option out there for my current situation. It has the option to apply to the ATP scheme that while might mean a long wait is a good path in I think to the airlines. I also feel that as a PPL who has been around the GA scene for a few years now I'm better placed to search out those 'smaller operator' jobs should the airline dream not work out than say someone who does not know the scene and just wants to be a jet pilot.

I know it may seem a bit bizarre to contradict my assertion that integrated is better for jobs but I mention my own situation to emphasise that everyone's situation is different and may require different solutions to the same end point.

What I have written about integrated/modular in this post is the advice I would give to someone who came to me with little or no flying experience and wanted to be an airline pilot. If they have the money and are suffering shiny jet syndrome go MPL or if not successful with that (as most are not simply due to numbers) go integrated.

Apologies for the long post but having done my PPL in 2006, having watched the industry since then and met countless different people who have given me the entire spectrum of views and now after doing other things and uni for four years I am finally looking for the dream I thought I might have something to contribute.

smartguy

I know what your saying but I really can't understand how ctc can say that they have placed 100% of their cadets, even with a long wait, if you fly for 8 months with easyjet and get a type rating surely that will be of massive help for continuing with your career. I can't understand how that fact can be false!?

It's because the majority of integrated students are now in flying jobs and the majority of modular students are on this forum looking for help as they can't find jobs.

Of course I will try and get on a cadet scheme, however I do still believe that an untagged integrated course gives you a slight advantage over a modular course, as contacttower118.2 said, the airlines like to take integrated students as it is easier for them. I also agree with contacttower118.2 when he said that integrated gives a better school-like atmosphere which I would prefer as it is similar to university and gives you people to revise with and,I think , it will give you a better chance in getting the best marks in exams

If you go to the cockpits of BA planes and ask how they were trained, the majority will say integrated, a small percentage will say military and a small proportion will say modular. If you look at the employment statistics from oaa over the last 20 years and a modular school over 20 years, oaa will have absolutely loads more students who have found employment with big airlines than the modular school.

Integrated does give you a slight advantage if you want to become a pilot at a big airline quickly! -surely that is just a proven fact!

UberPilot

I said that CTC wings was the exception! That, along with any tagged scheme, the only time that integrated offers an advantage! If you don't pass CTC wings selection then integrated offers no advantage! All the recent non TR schemes (jet 2, eJ and Aer Lingus) don't differentiate - if you have a license you can take the online tests! That's the hard part; doing well enough amongst 3000 applications to stand out and get invited to interview! Them it all comes down to your personality and his you perform at selection centre and sim check.

contacttower118.2

UberPilot what you say is not completely true.

I'm not so sure about FTE but I know OAA graduates do get to see opportunities that are not publicised because they have a careers department with airline contacts. This is not a 'magic bullet' but it is better than being totally alone.

Obviously they don't get everyone a job and it is still up to the candidates to pass the assessments. I know recently a lot have gone to Ryanair. But even with that the OAA guys do probably have an advantage versus modular because Oxford now know very well what Ryanair like, have full motion 737 sims for people to practice in and that relationship is only going to get closer now that CAE owns Oxford.

gpiper

Smartguy, do you actually believe CTCs bull.... about 100% employment statistics even after 8 months? A friend of mine is 8th in the holding pool, and he has been waiting for over a year for a job. And Ill tell you another thing, even if you achieve the best marks and scores, you still have to go last in the hold pool, the reason for that is because there are others in front of you who finished earlier and because CTC wants to protect their 100% employment statistics which is totally fake, you get to be hired last. As far as I know, some guys have been in the pool for over 2 years, I think you are a bit behind with the matter. Do integrated students have better chance, ill say 5% more if the make it in the top 10 of the holding pool, and even after that, you still need to support your self for another year before you find a job, which is a disaster both financially and psychologically. I don't know who actually said the {It's because the majority of integrated students are now in flying jobs and the majority of modular students are on this forum looking for help as they can't find jobs.} in the first place, but please stop copying or quoting what other people say, especially when what they said is nothing but *****. The majority of the integrated student now are all relaxed in the holding pool, paying even more money to live without e job, desperate, few of them actually got a job(those who graduated in 2011, last class that made it), and the rest of them are working as CFI somewhere in a modular school because their integrated school couldn't bother and hire them.
When you print me a copy with the statistics of the modular schools and the integrated ones from CAA or a ministry or something, that states integrated is the way to go, then ill will start believing everything OAAs CTCs and FTEs website say about their statistics.
OPEN YOUR EYES AND EARS

UberPilot

Just to balance the argument, I have to point out thar gpiper's last post contains a few inaccuracies. I know for a fact that this autumn CTC will provide the lions share of eJ's summer 2014 recruitment. So, if his friend is 8th in hold pool he can't have been there long, and certainly won't be there much longer. However, if he's ATP, then that's a different story...

As I've previously stated, if you've got the money and lass CTC wings selection, you won't find a better way to get an airline job.

gpiper

UberPilot, my friend followed the modular course of CTC, however he did the AQC, and he is 8th. He has been there for almost a year, therefore if you believe that in 2014 he will hopefully land a job, then that makes him almost two years in the holding pool before he could find a job. Apart from that, a modular student still has his or hers own chances of getting a job, even after you finish you just can't apply and wait, most of them fly to get hours, and watch closely how the industry changes, integrated students just wait for the holding pool manager to get in touch with them with a job offer, modular students need to make their own research and stay updated.

UberPilot

Yeah, you're right, modular students make their own contacts and opportunities. Prospective students should be careful to differentiate between the 2 hold pools though. CTC wings cadets move quickly at the moment; CTC ATP hold pool members don't! To be fair to CTC this is widely publicised so any ,ocular students undertaking the Aqc should be under no illusion about their prospects.

contacttower118.2

Well there are no statistics that "prove" anything either way. You probably could compile something reasonably accurate with a combination of CAA, airline and flight school data but it would an enormous task. Nice project for someone who has a spare few months perhaps?

The only things I know is that doing my own research I have come to the conclusion that to get a large operator job integrated is better. I was even told this by a current wide body captain who came up the self improver route many years ago.

gpiper you can rail against CTC all you like and yes I agree there have been some very uncomfortably long hold pool waits but I do not think that anyone can honestly argue that for people in the financial position to go integrated it is better to go modular. If you say your friend is in the ATP pool then that is completely different from the Wings one and you cannot compare the two because Wings gets priority (another reason to go integrated I guess...). I say that as someone who is seriously considering the ATP route and have psychologically and financially prepared myself for the wait.

I mean come on you can't honestly believe that CTC is just a pack of lies? About 60% of Monarch's entire flight crew came through CTC and more than 1500 pilots from CTC have gone to easyJet over the years of their relationship.

I have been reading PPRuNe since 2006 now and this modular/integrated debate never goes away. There always does seem to be a disproportionate number of modular students who go on about how much money they have saved but a lesser number actually report getting jobs. Sure I can think of many that have at Loganair, Flybe, Jet2 and of course dear old Ryanair but my impression is that the attrition rate of failure to 'realise the dream' is higher for modular and the time take to get there eventually is longer.

At the end of the day people just have to decide on what they want to do. There are those who come on PPRuNe because they have an axe to grind, there are those who come on to try and reassure themselves about the decisions they have made and there are those who come with a genuinely open mind. I have tried to be the latter of those and I have reached a conclusion. I encourage others to do the same...

smartguy

gpiper, yes you do get placed in a hold pool but when you graduate from ctc wings there are other ways to get jobs...it's called going to apply to airlines like every other bloody modular student does!! And this guy who did AQC is not a ctc wings cadet therefore doesn't get placed like a cadet would and would have to wait longer.

Yes you may be in a hold pool for a long time however, as contacttower118.2 said, at least they are trying to place you!! when a modular student graduates he gets no help from the school whatsoever!!! Integrated schools have airline connections which no matter what you say DOES help when looking for jobs

smartguy

And sorry can I just ask you a question, if my parents are willing to fund a integrated course...why should I consider modular?

UberPilot

It depends: How are your parents funding your integrated course, and what is the course?

If fortune dictates that your parents have 100k in the bank and can do without it (it accrues virtually no interest anyway) if something happens then there's no reason for you not to purchase any integrated flying training course; you certainly won't be at a disadvantage.

If the money is not in cash or free assets then you need to think very carefully. If you are thinking about asking your parents to remortgage your house then the only time I would even entertain this idea is if you get a place on a tagged scheme, preferably something reasonably solid like BA. Risk the house on an untagged integrated course? That's seriously ballsy! You'd be working all day at tescos just to cover your repayments when you don't get a flying job straight away... Re-mortgage for CTC? Still ballsy, but at least you're covered if you fail to make the grade.

gpiper

Smartguy, get in the postion of my friend then, he is doing modular in a school where they have all kinds of connections with airlines, He paid for the aqc and he is 8th. You said that there are two kinds of holding pools, one for the modular and one for the integrated. Where is the logic behind that? A school with two holding pools? I though graduating from CTC was the same no matter which route you took, so my point is that if you plan to go modular, do not consider CTC or OAA because you don't stand a chance. If you parents got the money, you are allowed to do what ever you want, but still even if you are a millionaire, going to an integrated school is a waste of time because you could go modular at one school only, do all your training there, then do an instructors course, get some experience, and then one day when you get in the right seat of a shiny jet be promoted to a training captain or chief captain. All I am saying is, it depends how good your economic situation is but also what other factors you are taking into account. Another factor for me at least of why I wouldn't go integrated is because I don't want to go to NZ or Arizona and do part of the course, for me it's better to do everything at one place, especially when I know that I can do everything quicker at one place.
If your parents go the money, there are two answers to that question on is ********, and the other is, spend them any way you like.

sapco2

smartguy said:

And sorry can I just ask you a question, if my parents are willing to fund a integrated course...why should I consider modular?

Because you'll be wasting their money and your inheritance! Choose a good modular school and you'll half your training costs.

smartguy

Uberpilot, in the history of ctc I am pretty sure that no cadet has ever had their parents house taken away. The ctc cadet course ends in 14 months and the loan repayments start on the 25 month, so that gives you 11 months to find a job either through the hold pool, your own application to airlines or as an instructor. So I don't think that it will ever come to a time when I am working in tesco every day to cover loan repayments, and as I said my parents are willing to help me so my loan repayments won't be that much.

whiskeytangoroger, as you said ej recruit almost 300 new pilots a year and they will do this for the foreseeable future to continue its 10-15% annual growth. I believe that they take a wide range of pilot from experienced, military and cadets to fill the 300 places, therefore, I am pretty sure that in the future easyjet will still be taking cadets from the likes of ctc.

sapco2

The only way to benefit from integrated training is to get yourself onto a pre-selected airline cadet scheme, such as the one BA run, Cathay pacific etc. If that's not possible then you're on exactly the same foot-hold as any modular graduate, the difference being that you'l have spent a shed load more money than you needed to. Don't be fooled by CTC's boastful hype, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll have plenty of graduates still job hunting.

The airlines in all honesty aren't really interested in your training route unless you're already on one of those pre-selected recognised cadet schemes. They are more interested in the candidate's personal qualities, his/her age and educational background. Also whether or not they'll fit into the airline team.

smartguy

Yeah I will of course try and get on a pre selected course but if I don't then I still think that integrated is slightly better with it airline preparation days and its extra hours in the simulators.

I would have to disagree on this as airlines prefer integrated students as it is easy for the airline to take pilots out of a holding pool, also airlines like how an integrated student has been airline focused from day one.

sapco2

That's your prerogative Smartguy. for my part I've been in the airline industry for the past 30 years and I'm only telling you what I see and have seen!