OhNoCB

smartguy,

Your 1 PPL instructor does not give you a case for grouping all modular students. Nor do my friends who went straight into Jet2 make a case for grouping all modular students. You have to look at things as a whole.

A lot of regional tprop operators prefer modular students (some say 1 stop modular). I am not saying ALL, but a lot. Certainly most of the ones I talked to.

The airlines that you mention that will need more pilots than its cadet scheme bring them are more likely to hire experienced people direct entry than take on a brand new integrated OR modular student. Easyjet were looking for direct entry FOs atm and they arent looking to CTC for new graduates for them despite their partnership.

Jwscud

One might also point out that instructors require 500h dual given before they can teach for the CPL, and 200h IFR before they can teach the IR. that suggests that you are unlikely to co e up against many sub-1000h instructors no matter where you do your CPL or IR.

smartguy

well these airline say that they like to take on a wide range of pilots from ex-military, integrated and direct entry, and if they were not employing brand new integrated pilots I can't understand how ctc can still boast about its 100% placement record and oaa can show good employment statistics. and I never see an integrated pilot on this forum complaining why they have not found a job, all I seem to see is modular trained pilots posting comments like "don't go integrated" as I said, it's probably because the integrate pilots are all flying for airlines and have no time.

Yes I know like flybe, however flybe also have big connections with ctc so flybe take a lot of integrated student aswell. Therefore it's a win win situation for integrated student as almost all airline will take integrated pilots however, as you said only a few operators will take modular student so that's why I think integrated students have better employment chances.

OhNoCB

If this was aimed at me, I must correct you. I never said only a few operators will take modular. I said a few PREFER modular. I can't think of 1 single airline at the minute which wont accept modular.

CTC as I have said before are/were probably the best standalone integrated provider due to the Easyjet partnership. You have to remember that they may have a 100% placement record but it can be years before you are placed and last time I knew (stand to be corrected) students are only guaranteed a 6 month flexicrew contract. I know 1 person from CTC now a captain in Easyjet who was offered this, worked it and then got offered permanent, but according to him, there were more that got dumped at the end of the 6 month period than not.

Now of course you can say that having worked for 6 months on a A319 will improve your prospects, and it is true but it is not a given that you will get a job afterwards, but it still lets CTC say they had 100% success.

OAA are known to include every person ever involved with them in their employment stats. If you went to OAA to do theory only and continued modular elsewhere, they will include you as a successful employment stat whenever you get a job, and as has been discussed, most of these jobs have been with Ryanair which is going to be slowing down now.

One more thing to think about perhaps. Every person I have encountered so far in my aviation life that has trained modular has been a reader/poster on this website. I have encountered many many integrated students who have not heard of it. I believe this is down to a fair portion of integrated students who swallow the FTO marketing and jump right in, whereas by nature people who have even given a fair consideration to modular training will likely have stumbled upon this website due to the increased amount of research they almost HAVE to do. You may find this a reason for finding less integrated students complaining on here, but I dare say that if there was a site-wide poll on here for employed people to say which path they took, the majority would say modular. NOT because modular students are more or less employable, but merely because IN MY OPINION they are far more likely to be users of a site such as this.

gpiper

I totally agree with WhiskyTangoRoger! Many deliveries are expected in 2014, I don't think the airlines will only accept Integrated students because I read somewhere that Europe alone will need 40K pilots for their new deliveries. Therefore they will need to hire modular students as well, and consider aother thing, in now days, out of the 40K pilots needed, how many of them do you think will come out of an integrated school, and how many from a modular? Can all of them afford an integrated training? NO, and I would say the percentage would be around 30 for int and 70 for mod, or more realistically 40 for int and 60 for mod, not to mention other schools who would offer both int and mod for less in the rest of Europe.

smartguy

WhiskeyTangoRoger- I do believe that easyjet are taking on fresh integrated students this year otherwise the ctc flexicrew system would not work and btw on the flexicrew subject I can't see why so many people are complaining about it, if your flying a a319 every day I wouldn't care about the money or conditions because I just love flying. Most unemployed people would absolutely love to have the chance to fly for easyjet even if it is under flexicrew.

OhNoCB- I see that you doubt the ctc's 100% placement and I believe that if you get type rated and fly a319/a320's for easyjet I believe that is very successful and defiantly should count as part of the 100% success rate even if it is only for 6-8 months. And I have to agree with you when you say that oaa is now not a good option with ryanair's recruitment halt, and I will probably not go to oaa and I will try to go to ctc even if it is not a tagged scheme but who knows I could get into one of those schemes after all, I'm optimistic!

smartguy

lol I will try and get on a tagged scheme but if I don't I still believe a unstaffed integrated is better than a modular. You are right in saying that the FTO's need hundreds of pilots passing thought to be profitable however ctc do manage to place all of these pilots so that does show that there are airlines out there which will take these cadets. No modular school can ever say that try have a 100% placement record so that tells me that I should go integrated even if it untagged. I know that at ctc the actuall course finishes after 16 months and then you do your type rating, base and line training after that. The loan repayments kick in on the 25th month so that will give you 9 months to find a job either through ctc or yourself. It's a risk but I think that in life you must take risks.

OhNoCB

The last thing I have to say on the matter is with regard to this:

Most pilots will understand how you feel. It is however important to remember that at the end of the day this is a JOB. This is where it can become risky. I think you said your parents would lend you the money. Maybe your family is quite fortunate and finding £100k+ is not a problem, but if this money comes from a mortgage then you are risking your families home.

You are aware that the loan repayments kick in on the 25th month, have you thought of 2 likely scenarios?

1. You enter the hold pool (at a time roughly when the MPL guys will be going on line) and you may have a 2 year wait. If it's the BBVA loan then I believe you can take a reduced repayment for 2 years, but we are still talking £700/month and afterwards if the wait is longer (don't assume its not going to be longer) it goes up to £~1000+/month. How will you pay this back without work?

2. You come out of training straight into Easyjet on a 6 month flex contract. You get paid in the region of £1200/month for these 6 months which will just about cover your loan. after 6 months Easyjet don't require your services and you are out. CTC have indeed placed you but now you are unemployed and are looking at soon paying back £1000+/month.

It's easy to try to forget about it and assume it will all work out for you, and it might. The problem is that it also might not and then what do you do about your parents house?

It's just opinions, advice and food for thought but it's worth having a good think about.

smartguy

yes I do understand the risk and will defiantly look into this in great detail before I make any sort of risky financial decision. Worst case scenario if there are no airline jobs available an I am needing to pay loan repayments then I would have to go into instructing (something I dot fancy doing but anyway) or another job. I would be looking to take a loan for the £69k and my family said they would kindly help me with the rest, so that would hopefully make the monthly repayments a bit smaller. I believe I would have to be a great deal in debt an have had many penalties from the bank before my parents home would be at risk.

gpiper

so OhNoCB you are saying that if let's say his parents can afford it without risking their home because they are millionaires, he should go integrated without rethinking it??

OhNoCB

gpiper, not at all. If my post came across that way I apologise, it was perhaps because I think smartguy has already got his mind set on integrated and I have made a few posts with my thoughts on that. But if someone's mind is made up they should at the very least be aware of the risks/consequences of their decision (regardless of what it is) and it is a fact that there is a lot less risk in it whenever there is less at stake.

smartguy

Yes I know that I'm not going to want to spend the rest of my career on £1200 a month from easyjet but what I meant was that for the first couple of years I will not be to worried about the pay and conditions as long as I can work on getting a contract and get experience. And I am hoping that the novelty will not wear of that quickly, I'm not sure how it can when your flying big jets an travel around Europe.

Paxi_R6

Wouldn't go intergrated in one of the big schools and pay €100,000. Same licenses at the end of the day, dont know how some people are willing to fork out an extra 30-40k+ to get the same licences only tad bit quicker. I'd be more concerned with 1st time passes and scoring very High in the exams themselves.

Only go intergrated if you're on a tagged cadetship in my opinion, Most FTOs say their airline partners are the likes of BA,Aer Lingus,Easyjet,Thomson etc they are partners but only selected cadets, Next time CTC,OAA or FTE saying "You have a better chance of getting into BA if you're intergrated" BA haven't taken fresh fAtpl in years apart from FPP and so many other airlines with cadet program's.

Modular vs intergrated most end up in Ryanair anyway! even some flying props isn't bad either, it's all about getting 1,500 hours then having all the options available to you, One other note Integrated vs Modular its down to the person at the end of the day, One guy Intergrated has an awful interview and doesn't seem captain material the other fello Modular and has what it takes to make it to the left seat and performs better he should get the job vice-Versa.

Also the "Pilot shortage" don't hold your breath for that its happened before where they've said it will happen and guess what! It didn't, If there is one by any chance majority of jobs will be in the Far East, Aisa another question you have to ask to yourself how far are you will to travel for work. All I will say Is learn the industry well before you make your final decision! it's an industry that changes in a heart beat

119.35

Guys, why are you entertaining this idiot!??

I've just skimmed through the last 3 pages of this thread to catch up and all I can see is several people offering good advice, only for it to be batted back with ill informed, naive and in a lot of cases, quite simply wrong arguements by one person!

Why are you wasting your breath on him!?? From memory, there was some cracking debate on this thread about 18 months ago that covered the whole debate from start to finish and was really informative.

Niaveguy - do us all a favour, enrol on an integrated course and stop posting rubbish on here. You've shown your true colours that you think modular, instructing and turbo props are all beneath you!

Or are you really a troll!?

smartguy

119.35, thankyou for contributing such useful information. I don't "think" integrated is better I KNOW it is a better course to do if you have the funding available. All I am trying to say is integrated is a better option if you are looking to become an airline pilot quickly, and that is fact!

can u give me an example of this?! I can assure you that all I say is not "simply wrong". Im sorry if i sound "naive" to you but i cannot understand why people would bother defending modular even though employment statistics clearly show that modular is not as good!

smartguy

If there were lots of integrated students on this forum giving me advice not to go integrated, I wouldn't! However all I can see is modular students telling me to avoid integrated. If ctc and oaa is as bad as you say it is why are there no oaa or ctc cadets on this forum complaining, I haven't seen one! Why should I listern to modular students who are telling me to avoid integrated?!

UberPilot

Smart guy, you really need to get a grip. CTC wings gives you a fairly good prospect of a job, however, that might include a 6-18 month wait depending on which airlines have a need at any given time. CTC wings and any tagged schemes with other schools are pretty much the only guaranteed way to get an airline job unless you have favourable connections which any organisation. These schemes aside, it really doesn't matter where you train and get the license as long as you adhere to the accepted facts: cpl and IR at same school, obtain first series passes and have a traceable training record. Now, if you choose to pay 100k upfront and do this at Oxford, fte etc then fine, but you must realise that you gain no advantage! You could chose to work and fund your way through highly respected modular schools and emerge debt free, whilst still having a traceable training record, first series passed and having come from a proven school. Where do you think the majority of the military guys get their civil qualms from? Not Oxford or ctc, but Airways flight training, on track etc...

You also need to realise that modern HR has changed; its very automated and competency based now (see eJ non type rated recruitment thread). Your ,incense is box tick 1 to get the application processed, and assuming that you meet other criteria then you may progress to a selection centre. Where you license came from is not relevant!

So, to sum up for you. If you've got 100k and lass CTC wings selection then there's probably no quicker way to get an airline job; the same goes for tagged schemes with any other school. However, just paying for an integrated course, untagged, just because you think it's better is financially stupid. As long as you get your license and can stick to the 3 criteria that I mentioned then you have the same chance as everyone else. If you can't pass CTC wings selection, then you may well struggle with any airline selection in the future. Even if you buy 1000 hours experience you still have to jump through the same HR hurdles when applying to an airline (see the issues experienced pilots have had with eJs online aptitude test)

You really should do some in depth research - visit some of the small schools mentioned and have a look. This is all based on personal experience over the last 18 months, and yes I have a flying job.

packo1848

Interested to hear where this came from smartguy? I went modular, and from start to finish I only ever had highly experienced instructors, mostly ex-military and a large % also ex-airline. The instructors at the establishment where I trained for my CPL/IR had an average experience level in excess of 15,000hrs and all bar 2 instructors flew/fly for legacy airlines.

This isn't necessarily fact, choosing the modular route enabled me to work at my own pace, and I have managed to complete the entire process in 9 months (I had a PPL to begin with, but that would have been irrelevant had I gone integrated anyway), 5 months ahead of the schedule FTE gave me when I looked into training there.

I finished the training a few weeks ago, and am not employed in the airlines yet, but having worked hard to network (albeit with a little head start from family connections) my current situation is looking reasonably strong (granted nothing is guaranteed). I don't feel my situation would be any different had I gone integrated, other than the fact I wouldn't have a licence yet...

Whilst I am adverse to paying for a type-rating up front if I can help it, the fact that I managed to train for less than half the cost of an integrated course means I now have the funding available to consider that option should it for whatever reason come to it.

119.35

As I said Deludedguy - go off on your CTC integrated course and stop posting crap on here with no first hand experience to back up any of your views.

You 'KNOW' integrated is better, so you therefore no longer need to frequent this thread and waste people's time. Good luck with CTC. I hope you get in and I hope you make the grade and don't get cut.

Come back in 2 years time and let us know if you made it and what it's like being a part time pilot on a flexicrew contract?

I'll repeat myself by saying that you've shown your true colours in that you consider anything other than a shiny new jet is beneath you as a first job. Good luck with that and endearing yourself to the rest of the pilot community.

Edit - you joined on pprune on 22/7 and by 23/7 you had already established that modular was 'crappy'. You are looking to embark on flight training in 2015? Graduating CTC in 4 years time will be a lottery and is unlikely to be as orange as it is now. You'll probably be doing your part time piloting in Asia by then.

I am impressed by the generosity of the ppruning community that still continue to give you sound advice that is clearly wasted.

smartguy

Packo1848 and UberPilot, thankyou for the advice. I haven't completely made my decision, I am still looking round lots of different integrated AND modular. But when i have been talking to the airline recruitment managers they have ALL told me that it would be preferred if I go integrated.

And you think that you will be able to become a pilot at a large airline in that time period if you go modular?

119.35, sorry but isn't a flexicrew contract flying an a320 better than being a flight instructor earning £15 an hour?

You also say a lot bad things about integrated in 4 years time...Do you think modular is going to change aswell? No. In 4 years time all the big airlines will still say they prefer integrated students. When I finished my degree I also wanted to go on a gap year and if I go integrated I will be able to go to New Zealand or Arizona for a year and do pilot training at the same time which is a big selling point.I also believe integrated is a better atmosphere for pilot training, with a group of people you know well. Most of the money is available to me so I would only have to take out a loan for the cost of a modular course, so without having to take out a 100k loan it wouldn't be so risky so that's why integrated is winning my 'integrated vs modular' decision