Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!
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No I meant the cost sprry, unless you are smart enough to get by with as little debt as possible/lucky enough to be sponsored/gifted enough for a scholarship it almost seems prohibitively expensive. The guys who are mid 20's/30's its a huge wrenching move to start this kind of training and especially the likes of CTC charging over £100,000 and yet people pay because of its self fulfilling prophecy. Its a hard choice to make when the less fortunate want to get started but the costs make your eyes water! Along with the fact that the entry pay is not commensurate with the outlay for the training.
Last edited by jamesgrainge; 11th Mar 2016 at 12:26.
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Is the Integrated route worth the investment?
Hi,
I'm very nearly 18 years old and wants to become a pilot. I have researched a lot into it and know it's not as glamorous as its made out be be however, it is something I really want to do. I have to be realistic about this however, modular seems a little bit more risky as you have less chance of receiving a job afterwards than integrated but it is cheaper, yet still very expensive. I have looked at some loans that would cover the cost of an Intergrated ATPL such as ATPL Finance and BBVA. Is it worth the investment of 80,000-100,000 pounds given how the market may not be stable and also for the return on investment. I do not have the funds for it and don't particularly want to spend 15 years of my life being poor paying off this massive loan. I am still doing research but would like some opinions, I am also thinking of applying for the RAF as it seems appealing to, although a very different life.
I'm very nearly 18 years old and wants to become a pilot. I have researched a lot into it and know it's not as glamorous as its made out be be however, it is something I really want to do. I have to be realistic about this however, modular seems a little bit more risky as you have less chance of receiving a job afterwards than integrated but it is cheaper, yet still very expensive. I have looked at some loans that would cover the cost of an Intergrated ATPL such as ATPL Finance and BBVA. Is it worth the investment of 80,000-100,000 pounds given how the market may not be stable and also for the return on investment. I do not have the funds for it and don't particularly want to spend 15 years of my life being poor paying off this massive loan. I am still doing research but would like some opinions, I am also thinking of applying for the RAF as it seems appealing to, although a very different life.
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Concerning costs, we have tried to compare "like with like" amongst Wings Alliance members and also factor in accommodation costs and include a 10% contingency. The result is the Pilot Training Budget Calculator
Note this is not for all ATOs, other training organisations are available, so you may find both cheaper and more expensive elsewhere, but it may be of use.
Note this is not for all ATOs, other training organisations are available, so you may find both cheaper and more expensive elsewhere, but it may be of use.
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@theonagvi
Just a few thoughts for you based on my own experience.
About 2 months ago I finished repaying my loan from BBVA after 10 years. On average I paid about 1150 Euros a month, for 8 and half years. Therefore (very rough maths) I borrowed 92,000 and paid back 117,000. I did an integrated course with FTE. When I finished my loan (and since the financial crisis really set in 6 or so years ago) I've been paying a very low interest rate, I think when I cleared the loan it was sitting at 1.75%.
I was 23 when I started, I'm 33 now. I was a "white tail" cadet and was extremely lucky to find a job on the A320 almost as soon as I finished training. I was paid about £40,000 in my first year, with all sorts of extras like medical insurance, flight pay, excellent pension etc. I've since worked for an orange airline and I now work for a flag carrier so I've seen low cost and "legacy" too.
The important point to highlight is that as you can see, I've been very lucky (as I now realise so much of aviation is about luck) but it's STILL not been easy at times. Yes, I took a large loan out and interest rates collapsed. However, I foolishly took the loan in Euros - be VERY careful about borrowing money in one currency and getting paid in another - and the pound collapsed too. Still, it's not been a bad deal and I've always been paid well. The trouble is, living in the south east of the UK is expensive and I do concede this depends on where you end up being based. However, only now, even after all my luck and 10 years down the line, have I scraped together a 5% deposit for a pretty modest house.
Now lets fast forward to today. You will need a bigger loan than me, and the interest rate BBVA now offer is 3% above bank rate, so 3.5% at the moment. Its variable so when interest rates go up, your repayments will go up - this should be a BIG consideration. At the same time, the deal offered to new pilots has got significantly worse, at least for the first couple of years. You could, if you are lucky and the economy continues to expand, be a captain with the orange airline 5 or 6 years after you start flying. But you can't bank on that. What would worry me starting today are the following questions. Can I repay the loan if bank rate rises to 3% (hence 6% on my loan)? How much money will I have left to live every month after I've repaid my loan? Will I have enough to run a car? To pay rent? Do a spreadsheet and figure it all out.
My advice? If you can, apply to a sponsored scheme with a big airline and at least then you should (no guarantees) have a job lined up at the end. You're young enough to give the BA FPP scheme or the easyjet MPL scheme a few tries before you even consider anything else. Don't rush in to anything and especially don't rush into anything because a flying school tells you that "now is a wonderful time to train and you don't want to miss the boat". No one knows where the boat will be in 6 months, let alone when you will finish your training.
Good luck and feel free to PM me - can't promise I'll have all the answers (or even any of them) but I'm happy to share my own experiences with anyone who's interested.
Just a few thoughts for you based on my own experience.
About 2 months ago I finished repaying my loan from BBVA after 10 years. On average I paid about 1150 Euros a month, for 8 and half years. Therefore (very rough maths) I borrowed 92,000 and paid back 117,000. I did an integrated course with FTE. When I finished my loan (and since the financial crisis really set in 6 or so years ago) I've been paying a very low interest rate, I think when I cleared the loan it was sitting at 1.75%.
I was 23 when I started, I'm 33 now. I was a "white tail" cadet and was extremely lucky to find a job on the A320 almost as soon as I finished training. I was paid about £40,000 in my first year, with all sorts of extras like medical insurance, flight pay, excellent pension etc. I've since worked for an orange airline and I now work for a flag carrier so I've seen low cost and "legacy" too.
The important point to highlight is that as you can see, I've been very lucky (as I now realise so much of aviation is about luck) but it's STILL not been easy at times. Yes, I took a large loan out and interest rates collapsed. However, I foolishly took the loan in Euros - be VERY careful about borrowing money in one currency and getting paid in another - and the pound collapsed too. Still, it's not been a bad deal and I've always been paid well. The trouble is, living in the south east of the UK is expensive and I do concede this depends on where you end up being based. However, only now, even after all my luck and 10 years down the line, have I scraped together a 5% deposit for a pretty modest house.
Now lets fast forward to today. You will need a bigger loan than me, and the interest rate BBVA now offer is 3% above bank rate, so 3.5% at the moment. Its variable so when interest rates go up, your repayments will go up - this should be a BIG consideration. At the same time, the deal offered to new pilots has got significantly worse, at least for the first couple of years. You could, if you are lucky and the economy continues to expand, be a captain with the orange airline 5 or 6 years after you start flying. But you can't bank on that. What would worry me starting today are the following questions. Can I repay the loan if bank rate rises to 3% (hence 6% on my loan)? How much money will I have left to live every month after I've repaid my loan? Will I have enough to run a car? To pay rent? Do a spreadsheet and figure it all out.
My advice? If you can, apply to a sponsored scheme with a big airline and at least then you should (no guarantees) have a job lined up at the end. You're young enough to give the BA FPP scheme or the easyjet MPL scheme a few tries before you even consider anything else. Don't rush in to anything and especially don't rush into anything because a flying school tells you that "now is a wonderful time to train and you don't want to miss the boat". No one knows where the boat will be in 6 months, let alone when you will finish your training.
Good luck and feel free to PM me - can't promise I'll have all the answers (or even any of them) but I'm happy to share my own experiences with anyone who's interested.
Last edited by Northern Monkey; 26th Apr 2016 at 20:54.
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Both route produce quality pilots but...
This is taken from and interview of one BGS student who I think shows exactly what produce the modular route:
I would always choose the modular route. I believe it forms a more adaptable, self-reliant and well-rounded pilot. Often, integrated training, though of high quality, is too standardised and fails to expose pilots to enough scenarios which require them to problem-solve independently, especially during their hour building.
https://www.wingsalliance.eu/activel...ng-pilots-now/
Monarch, Flybe etc are being aware that young integrated pilots in their 20s are in a rush for flying a wide body in a major airlines! Modulars tend to stay longer perhaps because their are happy enough flying a Saab340 or a Q400!
Good luck!
This is taken from and interview of one BGS student who I think shows exactly what produce the modular route:
I would always choose the modular route. I believe it forms a more adaptable, self-reliant and well-rounded pilot. Often, integrated training, though of high quality, is too standardised and fails to expose pilots to enough scenarios which require them to problem-solve independently, especially during their hour building.
https://www.wingsalliance.eu/activel...ng-pilots-now/
Monarch, Flybe etc are being aware that young integrated pilots in their 20s are in a rush for flying a wide body in a major airlines! Modulars tend to stay longer perhaps because their are happy enough flying a Saab340 or a Q400!
Good luck!
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Bealzebub is from Easyjet!!!!!!!
Over the last two decades I have flown extensively with cadets and feel this provides enough experience and "expertise" on which to venture qualified opinion and general advice. I have done that many times on these forums, and in doing so try to offer as honest and truthful contribution as I can. If it is helpful then I am pleased I haven't wasted my time. If you want to disagree with it, then fine, it provides that conduit.
I do not and never have worked for any FTO in any capacity whatsoever, save for the flying schools I worked for Thirty odd years ago. I have never drawn any benefit from such organisations (apart from a cup of tea and a sandwich when visiting one of them at two of their facilities.)
The involvement with our cadet programme from its inception provides a strong base on which to provide properly qualified replies, and I have said this many times. I stand by everything I have ever written on this site and although some of it may be subject to evolution or modification as time marches on, you are welcome to trawl back through it as you see fit.
I am not just an experienced airline captain, but also a parent. To that end I have experience of my own children completing commercial flight training. I have taken the time to visit many of the facilities both we and they have used. I have first hand experience of the financial realities involved. That is why I have felt able to provide qualified advice on those subjects to parents and people seeking such input.
If you don't believe me, that is your right. If you want to disagree with what I say, that is fine. However "erroneous" and lazy allegations (no matter how many exclamation marks you use) are simply a voyage into self denial. They do not provide a strong base for the rest of your musings.
Some of the rubbish proffered on these threads (often unqualified) is simply wishful thinking at best. I have spent nigh on 20 years flying with many, many hundreds of success stories. I offer the same comment, opinion or advice that I offer my own children (it worked for them.) You can take it or leave it, I don't mind, it's free!
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I have a question which I'm hoping that perhaps more experienced people in the European industry may be able to answer.
I'm in the process of reading through this thread, by the way.
I am personally interested in the modular route given that I am not interested in a fast track to flying jets for airliners. Well, I am, however I am also realistic. The idea that you can just waltz in Easyjet and land a co-pilot job is, to me, unrealistic.
The real question I'm asking is if there is a realistic chance to start flying commercially in small a/c first and then of course move up to bigger and bigger gigs. Someone in this thread mentioned Q400s. I'm thinking ATR42s, or even sustaining my young self as an instructor. One would gradually move up as they acquire experience.
I'm sure that this is a possible route, but my question is, is it a good one?
I'm in the process of reading through this thread, by the way.
I am personally interested in the modular route given that I am not interested in a fast track to flying jets for airliners. Well, I am, however I am also realistic. The idea that you can just waltz in Easyjet and land a co-pilot job is, to me, unrealistic.
The real question I'm asking is if there is a realistic chance to start flying commercially in small a/c first and then of course move up to bigger and bigger gigs. Someone in this thread mentioned Q400s. I'm thinking ATR42s, or even sustaining my young self as an instructor. One would gradually move up as they acquire experience.
I'm sure that this is a possible route, but my question is, is it a good one?
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This was my original plan. I have been informed many times on this forum by many people that it will not work or pan out like this. Seemingly the only way to a good salary is to approach the airlines for recruitment. Unfortunately. I would have loved to spend a few years flying twins or courier but apparently airlines are not interested in the hours gained when moving upto jets. If you choose to believe what is written here.
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British 20 y/o - Picked up my PPL and IR tickets in the states currently working on CMEL then from there I'll return to UK to do my ATPL theory then I'll head for ME/Africa. Modular certainly saves you a ton of money and financial stress compared to Integrated courses. No intentions of working in Europe especially UK :3 :3 :3
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I have a question which I'm hoping that perhaps more experienced people in the European industry may be able to answer.
I'm in the process of reading through this thread, by the way.
I am personally interested in the modular route given that I am not interested in a fast track to flying jets for airliners. Well, I am, however I am also realistic. The idea that you can just waltz in Easyjet and land a co-pilot job is, to me, unrealistic.
The real question I'm asking is if there is a realistic chance to start flying commercially in small a/c first and then of course move up to bigger and bigger gigs. Someone in this thread mentioned Q400s. I'm thinking ATR42s, or even sustaining my young self as an instructor. One would gradually move up as they acquire experience.
I'm sure that this is a possible route, but my question is, is it a good one?
I'm in the process of reading through this thread, by the way.
I am personally interested in the modular route given that I am not interested in a fast track to flying jets for airliners. Well, I am, however I am also realistic. The idea that you can just waltz in Easyjet and land a co-pilot job is, to me, unrealistic.
The real question I'm asking is if there is a realistic chance to start flying commercially in small a/c first and then of course move up to bigger and bigger gigs. Someone in this thread mentioned Q400s. I'm thinking ATR42s, or even sustaining my young self as an instructor. One would gradually move up as they acquire experience.
I'm sure that this is a possible route, but my question is, is it a good one?
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British 20 y/o - Picked up my PPL and IR tickets in the states currently working on CMEL then from there I'll return to UK to do my ATPL theory then I'll head for ME/Africa. Modular certainly saves you a ton of money and financial stress compared to Integrated courses. No intentions of working in Europe especially UK :3 :3 :3
To be a little thick if you have a single engine IR (presumably) That gets uprated to a multi engine IR? Secondly does an FAA CPL not present certain problems in the rest of the world, regardless of UK ATPL status? You would still need to convert to an EASA/ insertcountryhereCPL?
Ahhh there is a similar topic on another thread, possibly have a read here about your future route
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/581895-faa-commercial-pilot-licence-atpl-theory.html#post9447822
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Sorry your acronyms confused me, CMEL, is that Commercial Multi Engine Licence?
To be a little thick if you have a single engine IR (presumably) That gets uprated to a multi engine IR? Secondly does an FAA CPL not present certain problems in the rest of the world, regardless of UK ATPL status? You would still need to convert to an EASA/ insertcountryhereCPL?
Ahhh there is a similar topic on another thread, possibly have a read here about your future route
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post9447822
To be a little thick if you have a single engine IR (presumably) That gets uprated to a multi engine IR? Secondly does an FAA CPL not present certain problems in the rest of the world, regardless of UK ATPL status? You would still need to convert to an EASA/ insertcountryhereCPL?
Ahhh there is a similar topic on another thread, possibly have a read here about your future route
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post9447822
Yeah on the Multi engine checkout If I cover the single-engine instrument approach along with normal maneuvers (also one with one engine). Then I'm ME-IR.
Not 'the rest of the world' but a few countries here and there not to mention Europe as a continent.
I wouldn't need to convert my licences to EASA? However in the future I may need to convert my CPL to what ever region I may be in and then sit the exams.
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Flying Academy or Global Aviation S.A?
Hello!
I have been looking through the posts and I didn`t find any comparisons of schools. Maybe there is a reason for that.
But my question is which of these two schools is the best to get your training?
I know that I should just got into a plane and visit both of these schools and compare them by my self. And I`m going to do that. But anyway, I would appreciate your opinion that you could share about these schools in comparison.
I`m considering several programs:
Flying Academy:
0-ATPL
0-ATPL with US experience
Global Aviation S.A.
ATPL Integrated or
PPL + CPL Modular
1) I understand that it`s quite difficult to compare different programs in different schools. I have read some information about Flying academy on this forum and I didn`t find criminal issues. I mean, if there were problems, they were well dealt with, or there was always a reasonable explanation or even acceptance of claim from Flying academy side.
2) I also found out from this forum that Integrated courses are waste of money, but at Global Aviation S.A. it`s not so expensive as it is in CTC. For me is very important to save time and get really good skills (But I`m not saying that money are not important).
3) I was looking through Flying academy 0-ATPL with US experience and there is point that first flights will take place in US, that also frightens me a little bit. I have spoken to one pilot (he started his path in US) and he told me that European studying differs from US (I mean style and attitude). He explained me that in Europe everything seems more serious than in US. And here is the point, maybe it`s better to start with more struggles from the beginning to avoid adaptation to European style?!
4) And the last one thing. In general.. After finishing schools like Flying academy and Global Aviation S.A. will it be the same possibility to find a good job as after finishing CTC? I mean, is it very important which school you have finished or here is more important the skills you got after graduation?
Maybe I have missed some points that should be taken into account before making a decision. I will appreciate if You could add it by your-self.
I have been looking through the posts and I didn`t find any comparisons of schools. Maybe there is a reason for that.
But my question is which of these two schools is the best to get your training?
I know that I should just got into a plane and visit both of these schools and compare them by my self. And I`m going to do that. But anyway, I would appreciate your opinion that you could share about these schools in comparison.
I`m considering several programs:
Flying Academy:
0-ATPL
0-ATPL with US experience
Global Aviation S.A.
ATPL Integrated or
PPL + CPL Modular
1) I understand that it`s quite difficult to compare different programs in different schools. I have read some information about Flying academy on this forum and I didn`t find criminal issues. I mean, if there were problems, they were well dealt with, or there was always a reasonable explanation or even acceptance of claim from Flying academy side.
2) I also found out from this forum that Integrated courses are waste of money, but at Global Aviation S.A. it`s not so expensive as it is in CTC. For me is very important to save time and get really good skills (But I`m not saying that money are not important).
3) I was looking through Flying academy 0-ATPL with US experience and there is point that first flights will take place in US, that also frightens me a little bit. I have spoken to one pilot (he started his path in US) and he told me that European studying differs from US (I mean style and attitude). He explained me that in Europe everything seems more serious than in US. And here is the point, maybe it`s better to start with more struggles from the beginning to avoid adaptation to European style?!
4) And the last one thing. In general.. After finishing schools like Flying academy and Global Aviation S.A. will it be the same possibility to find a good job as after finishing CTC? I mean, is it very important which school you have finished or here is more important the skills you got after graduation?
Maybe I have missed some points that should be taken into account before making a decision. I will appreciate if You could add it by your-self.
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ArchySmi, I am doing the 0-ATPL with US experience at Flying Academy. The very good part about it is that the US experience is great to have and you get to learn radio communication in English. Plus you get to fly from a large airport, in crowded airspace. Communication is different to Europe, but not that much different and I personally find it more complex. When researching for schools I found out that it is an advantage when looking for a job, and now I am happy that I chose this program. For me, the integrated program is not an option because I like the flexibility that the modular gives me. I can go as fast as I can and I don't have to wait for anyone and anything. In case you want more details, let me know. I hope that my experience helps you make the best decision.
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ArchySmi
I am almost finish atpl intergrated in Global Aviation. Very nice place to do your training.
People there are both professional and friendly and the most important. Pay as you fly! Hour by hour. Pm me if you want for futher informations.
As for your last question i believe that the most important is the personal effort everyone made on his training. Even finished oxford or Global. When you will go to an airline assessment you will not have your school with you. Just you and your skills!
I am almost finish atpl intergrated in Global Aviation. Very nice place to do your training.
People there are both professional and friendly and the most important. Pay as you fly! Hour by hour. Pm me if you want for futher informations.
As for your last question i believe that the most important is the personal effort everyone made on his training. Even finished oxford or Global. When you will go to an airline assessment you will not have your school with you. Just you and your skills!
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Thank you skyboy83 and IFly0toATPL for your replays.
I assume from above that both schools are worth to go and study. I think I should visit by myself to make the best choice.
I assume from above that both schools are worth to go and study. I think I should visit by myself to make the best choice.