M_Wall13

Sadly the Cabair Integrated course now costs £62500, call it ~ £72000 with accommodation/living costs and all the extras. But their doing a structured modular course (JAA Pro Pilot Programme) mostly in the US for a alot cheaper, I've worked it out as ~ £41000 basic, plus the extras ~ £47000, all due to them now being Cabair International

clanger32

ok, I'm not going to argue. All I ask is people THINK about the WHOLE BLOODY THING not just the obvious bits.

Now, just humour me and answer two questions.
1. If flight training was not on the agenda AT ALL, for either of our mythical students, what would they need to fund to live for a year? If your answer is "the same" - why then would you add the "cost" of living to one course but not the other - that cost exists, regardless of whether you are learning to fly or not - UNLESS you have to fund one home whilst living away - in which case it's valid. If there is a fundamental difference between the two people whereby one costs more to live than the other, then please explain.
2. Go to PPJN and look up the salary scales for a decent carrier. Let's use Thomas Cook. here: Thomas Cook Airlines (UK jobs, payscales and entry requirements.)
Now. Fire up a spreadsheet and copy/paste in the F/O and captain salary values per year given. Now. We have to assume that the integrated student is available to work AT LEAST a year prior to the mod - purely because he'll finish sooner, because he's full time. Let's also assume that both land a job - lucky so and so's - straight out of flight school - so ignoring the main selling point of integrated. Let's assume both never lose their medicals and get to enjoy 25 years after the first finishes flying school and they have continuous service before retiring with their respective better halves. Add it up. Seriously, add up the columns. This is really, really basic economics, but it proves the point about length of service. The fact that the integrated student has a year extra working is tail loaded. It means over a 25 year working life, he earns the top level salary for A YEAR LONGER. It means over a 25 year career the difference in salary is £109k more. But what if our modular student takes *2* years longer that integrated boy to finish? WOW £219k less! But that's ok huh .... cos you've earned £25 a year for those two years you lost.

I am NOT trying to sell or push or guide anyone to integrated - but for gods sake - LOOK at the whole picture. Yes modular is cheaper up front, but what's the long term cost? You can argue all you like if you don't like the numbers, but that's how it is. That's how it breaks down. The sooner you get into [professional aviation] the larger the final amount of money you'll make out of it. Same in ANY career.

Desert Strip Basher

I'm really worried I'm causing you a nervous breakdown. Right:

1. As another poster has said above, if you want to add living costs to both please do so. But also take my salary off that - and that's £43k. That's £43k of income that an integrated student would not get BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WORKING!!! Hope you now get it. To be fair - you should also take off all my holidays, car etc. It will bring you back to the £700/month figure. Either way I've still had a good quality of life, while training at my own pace.

2. For that mythical year you are ahead, I'm still working in my non flying job (at actually better than a FO salary - but that's by the wayside). Anyway - I'll let you believe that you'll get in 1 year earlier (£60k has to be worth something). However, when you're on yr 25 salary, I'm on yr 24 salary, so it's only the difference between the two, not a full yr 25 salary (your understanding of basic economics is worrying to say the least). So take into account I've got £60k invested for 25 years (maybe property), was already paid better than you as an FO for one year while I was still looking for work and you'd got your flying job. Add to that the real world scenario that as you've raced into a dodgy employment situation rather than slowing down as a modular student would, then we just might be as employable as one another anyway.

I'll take my chances thanks!!

Desert Strip Basher

A123 - you're worrying me now too!! You haven't understood his point because he's making the assumption that in his first year working, the mod student is on the dole. That's the point, a mod student is still working and in many cases on a salary greater than what can be expected of an entry level FO position. It shouldn't be all about money, but it generally seems to be for these integrated mob and what I'm trying to show you is that even for the lucky few, the only ones winning are the integrated FTO providers.

redsnail

clanger 32, I appreciate what you are trying to do but sadly, reality also kicks in.
(For me, all this talk of modular v integrated is all moot but any way)

You're 36, did an integrated course and as far as I can tell, not flying professionally. (Sorry about that, I am not having a go at you). So, now you (and others in a similar position) have a very expensive "blue book" that is not paying it's way.

If some one had to take a loan to do this integrated course, then they are really behind the pay/pension drag curve, especially as they near 40.

I am in that situation but for a different reason. I shifted countries at 35 and converted my Australian ATPL to a JAA one. I now pay into my pension per month what I used to earn gross flying freight in the UK.

One other factor is that some one straight out of school is not going to have upwards of £100K lying around, so they had to get the money from somewhere.
That needs to be factored in.

My 2 cents/pence for what it's worth.
I'll go with WWW, integrated for when the economy is recovering. Modular all the time.
However, I'll expand my thoughts. Integrated if all you want to do is fly an airliner. Modular for those who want options and flexibility.

Remember, easyJet and Ryanair have both forecast a slow down in their expansion.

Good luck to all of you, I wish we all had a crystal ball so we could make the right decision. What is the right decision for Bloke A, is not always the right decision for Bloke B.

fabbe92

When is the easy/ryan slowdown expected? 2,3,4 or 5 years?

Bealzebub

To add to what redsnail has already said, you also need to ask yourself, "what is it you want"?

If you want a CPL/IR with 250 hours and the basic tool to apply for "aerial work" and entry level jobs wherever they may be found, then the modular route is probably the way to go. Anybody with a Class one medical certificate and a reasonble level of aptitude and determination should be able to save money on the required training and testing necessary for licence aquisition.

If you seriously intend to have a shot at an airline pilots job with only 250 hours, then the best bet is through that airlines "cadet scheme" if it operates or subscribes to one. For those that do, they will virtually all do so through affiliated, integrated programmes through (in the UK) one of the "Big 3" training providers (CTC, FTE, Oxford.) This will be either through an integrated ATPL scheme, or possibly the more recently introduced MPL scheme.

Pretending that there is some sort of "mix & match" scheme is pointless. Airlines are not short of candidates. The flexibility and cost benefits that these schemes give those companies is also protected by the assurance they are provided by having those low houred entrants come from recognised, monitored and mentored training providers.

Where recruitment is occuring now it is sourcing these integrated low houred cadets via these schemes, as well as experienced type rated and qualified pilots. There is no shortage of pilots from either source, and there is isn't likely to be in the forseeable future.

You only have to look at the recruitment that is now occuring in those airlines that are recruiting to see evidence of this. Then take a look at the expansion in facilities that is for example taking place at Flybe in Exeter. The number of people going through "wings" courses at CTC. New MPL programmes at Oxford in conjunction with Easyjet. Affliated ATPL/MPL programmes with FTE. All of these courses are well subscribed, and likely to be able to amply provide for any short term requirement. They also have the ability to ramp up quickly to meet any anticipated future need. Couple this with the stock of experienced pilots such as those looking to move up their own career ladder, as well as the easily converted stock of career change military pilots, and you see just how squeezed those "modular candidates" are now and are likely to be in the future.

The CPL/IR and 250 hours is the bottom rung of the ladder without one of these "fast track" programmes. It is a ladder that can certainly be climbed, but the difficulties and frustrations involved, as well as the likely attrition rate, shouldn't be underestimated by anybody.

So again, before asking yourself "which is cheaper," you need to understand what it is you actually want from the outlay, before that cost becomes the overriding factor. If it is airline employment......

Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Which countries do I have the unrestricted right to live and work in?

2) Which of those countries principal languages do I speak fluently?

3) Where do the airlines in these countries employ their "low hour" pilots from?

4) Is my proposed training programme likely to elicit any interest from these airlines, based on their current recruitment requirements?

Desert Strip Basher

And if choosing your integrated provider as Bealzebub says is your only "fast track" route in, then choose wisely. The connections are now so tight do you think that someone trained at Oxford has much chance at a CTC affiliated airline and vica versa? So it could be that you pay over inflated prices to actually limit your options!

My replies yesterday weren't intended to be a personal onslaught. The point is this, talent isn't king, cash is. Selection is predominantly with regard to depth of pocket. The example I was trying to illustrate wasn't that modular is better than integrated or vica versa, it was to show that costs to support over inflated integrated prices are being pushed up from the bottom by ill advised wannabees and pinched from the top by accountants such that the stakes for anyone with common sense are now simply too high. At a cost of £20k it's probably worth chancing your arm to see if you are good enough (assuming selection was aptitude based rather than cash based). This can only be achieved at present via the modular route - though as Bealzebub says, this may be futile. So the other option - integrated (plus a potential TR) at £80-110k+ to have maybe a chance of getting in for a year or two........you'd have to be mad. So as much as Bealzebub's post is trying to help - in my view there really isn't an answer unless you have more money than sense and unfortunately it seems quite a few have. I dare say many of those most suited to the profession are now discouraged from airline flying for this very reason. Others, like our good integrated friend above, find themselves high and dry. Such a shame.

yippy ki yay

I was going to write a nice big post, but lost interest half way through so here's my condensed opinion:

1. I'm with Beazlebub on the integrated-to-airline route and modular to keep options open/flexibility

2. By that argument though you are saying that by going modular you are limiting your options even further...but at least you get to spend a little less. (assuming you were wanting to have a shot with an airline)

3. No doubt true...but having said that it doesn't mean that those who weren't discouraged are in any way less suited to the profession.

4. Fable - from what I've heard, Ryan will stop the large recruitment in 2013 as I think thats when the last planes are due to be delivered. Not sure about Easy.

5. I agree with whats been mentioned about the actual "cost" of doing flight training. Its not all monetary but comes in many forms such as what it is you actually want out of it and what gives you the best chance to achieve that.

6. I'm sure I'm going to get slaughtered for saying this but I actually think now is a good time to do an integrated course (and modular of course). If you were to start now you would in theory get your CPL/IR by late 2012/early 2013, I feel the situation is going to be a lot better than it is now and I think most things will be recovering nicely by then.

captainsuperstorm

sons, if you have to calculate how much your training will cost you, I can tell you already, you are on the wrong track and you go .

this profession is for the rich one, not the one who need to work hard to pay back their debts.

Desert Strip Basher

Point 2. I agree modular limits you further. Once again - I'm not trying to say one training route is better than the other, I'm trying to illustrate that people's over eagerness to pay over inflated prices are too high a personal gamble and the current training industry practices (both FTO's and wet-behind-the-ears-money-no-object applicants) will have a long term detrimental effect (if not already). I'd even venture further that integrated training is possibly more effective though with one major factor for consideration. The integrated courses were at one time the sole preserve of sponsorship schemes (BA et al) - selection was by aptitude and this regulated the 'integrated industry'. Now misguided people are being encouraged (by the revenue hungry providers, not the employers) to take ever higher gambles. I am simply trying to raise awareness that this has perhaps gone too far.

Point 4. I understand what you are referring to but not sure which point you are replying to?

clanger32

I didn't really want to respond to this thread again, as it just re-hashes the same old arguments and certainly I have no wish to engage/enrage DSB just because we disagree on this point - I've certainly seen enough in the postings to see we agree largely on other things. However, a couple of points:

1. To be VERY clear, right now I wouldn't recommend an integrated course. I'm with Redsnail, WWW and everyone else...time your training. It's NOT that I'm saying "integrated is better"....WWW summed it up perfectly as far as I'm concerned "integrated when it's good, modular when it's smelly". It's still vaguely whiffy right now.
2. DSB - where we DO disagree, is that no, the difference in our theoretical example is NOT the difference between PP24 and PP25. it IS PP25. I get the impression that you haven't really stopped to try and analyse what I'm saying, because you are just disagreeing with ME. Remember your ATPL exams - look for evidence which DISPROVES your current thinking, not that supports it. Look at it this way - right down in column A the yearly pay point from 1 to 25. Now repeat in column 2, but exclude pp25 (because, as per our example, student B will never REACH pp25 - because they finished a year after student A. Again, note that this is NOTHING to do with "speed of getting a job" - it's just that Student A CAN get a job a year earlier, because they finsihed the training earlier - it actually does NOT include the concept that Integrated MAY get a job quicker). Now, with your two columns, cross reference - play "snap" with the numbers. you will find that you can cross out EVERY SINGLE NUMBER in column A from the numbers in column B. Except PP25. THAT is the difference. That is what you will have NOT earned in your new career by finishing later. Please - don't just react and say "what a load of horsesh... Clanger is talking"....go and do it. Really - go and put it into a spreadsheet. You're right, the difference is offset by the fact you're still earning your £43k in student A's year one.....but would you rather have the £109k TC pay for that year, or the £43k?

RS - you're absolutely right- thing is, I took a gamble - I started training at the best ever time for low houred recruitment....unfortunately some pillock broke the economy whilst I was training. I am more or less resigned to the fact that I will never fly professionally now. I have no debt whatsoever (other than my mortgage...). do I REGRET it? Difficult question. Sure, I could use the £70k in my bank now, but I went for it, I could not have given anything more to it and I finished with the best possible opportunity to gain employment. I was also unlucky in that I just missed selection for your mob, although I did enjoy Lisbon But sometimes that's just the curveball life throws you. My ONLY intent in offering ANY opinion on these forums is to provide MY experience and to try and present a clear picture. There is MORE than enough I wouldn't argue against someone slating an integrated course for, but if we're doing the pure "cost" then I feel it should be balanced correctly, NOT taking the cheapest possible way of doing one method and comparing it against the most expensive route for the other.

Desert Strip Basher

Clanger - you're right (sort of) and I apologise as something had also been niggling me about the calculation too. However - it still isn't the value of the final year. What it is, is the difference between each and every year we're employed. If you use Thomas Cooks figures, in general each year you would be ~£1000-1500 better off. Over a 25 year career that's ~£31k (not the £109k). Integrated still doesn't work out financially, even in this hypothetical situation of employment, though weighted with the fact that integrated probably does give you a head start, I'll accept that there is a little more balance than I demonstrated. However, I'd temper that with the view that predicting employment any further on than about 4yrs is lacking any substance - once in then it's every man for himself and you're at the mercy of the economy.

clanger32

Heh heh
Amen brother. Amen.

All I was ever seeking to illustrate..

Wee Weasley Welshman

Thanks to all recent posters. This is an excellent up to date thread for Wannabes encountering the infinity loop of Int vs Mod. Views on both sides with realistic numbers have been used. It does not matter who is right or wrong - illumination has been provided in a manner and to a degree unavailable elsewhere.

Thank you.

wikifreaks

I love a good argumnet boys but I feel as if modular is now taking a headway as every airline now wants you to pay for your type rating. Once you have the rating, no one gives a stuff about your past. If you can still receive a rating for free (doesnt exist) then integrated all the way.

Jugs08

I think Clanger makes a very good point. I personall like the whole idea of modular because of the reduced risk for various reasons however. I had a full time job and it took me a year to get a PPL flying at weekends with already 11 hours. I've also incured remedial training due to this again increasing the cost.


Modular Figures:
The figures I Worked off were:
PPL + night 8k
ATPL Exams (Bristol GS) £3000
Hour Building £7000 SFC
CPL/IR/ME £20k SFC
MCC 2k SFC
Living Fees including Petrol Medical Landing Fees 15k

vs

Integrated
Oxford 76k
CTC 70K
PTC 72k

Around 40k however the cost of living including driving to the FTO Landing fees soon adds up. So I'd say a realistic Modular all UK is around 55k including everything.

But obviously if you were to go CTC or Oxford them it will be alot more.
Personally I feel that if yo do train all at one place in a continous way you will be better than the Modular Pilot who takes 2-3 years. Also with Integrated you can immense yourself into purly Flying without the worry of other things going on in life.

And that through integrated you will be more likely to get a Job due to the training you have received not by the company it was with.

You are only as good as your training. Thats why RAF pilots are the best. So are you going to receive the best training for the cheapest price. Hmm im not sure in the same way the best Pay in any job is with those more capable either by experience or natural ability or both.

I think the notion of walking from Flight Training into a Job is quite unlikily at the moment. But if anyone has read Airliner World recently you would know that growth figures all over the shot. There will always be new jobs somewhere. However; lets not forget its a top profession and is very competitive.

Forcast
Its forcast that Europe is going to need 3,600 new Pilots annually.
World over 20,000 Per Annun.

What about the actors that go to Hollywood and make their dream happen or the people that start their own empires. It has to happen to someone. Maybe it won't be you. But a key trait in anyone successful is perserverance and activity to make it happy. All I know is that life is not a rhersal. If you want to do something enough then do it; because 70k debt isn't the best way to start your woking life; but if it's going to give you happy career then why not?

If you don't try then your not gonna know.

Desert Strip Basher

I give up. Taking a horse to water must be more fun...............

Artie Fufkin

Ryanair take delivery of their last B737 in around 2 years from now.

student88

I'm a modular student. I'm going to be honest with you about what it's cost/going to cost me..

PPL £8,000 (approximate as I didn't keep track of what I spent) including things like a decent headset, flying gear, books etc..

Hour building £9,900 ex landing fees at other airports and petrol to get to/from the airfield. Luckily I fly a PA28 out of Cranfield for £99 per hour wet inc. landing fees.

ATPLs (Bristol Ground School)
Course - £2140
Exam fees - £924 (14 @ £66 a pop!)
Accommodation in Bristol - £600 (£300 for each 2 week stint)
Hotel at Gatwick for exams - £400
ATPL total = £4,064 (and that figure doesn't include lunches and dinner and general spending money)

CPL/ME/IR @ Stapleford £25,000 (will include a suggested 10% contingency fund on top of the all inclusive course cost)

MCC hasn't been done but you can add another £2,000 to 3,000 on top easily.

Total = £50,000